2.4 Balance Feedback

[hiveminion]

My 2 cents on Palas/GK Termies:

Iirc the design plan was to differentiate them more from loyalist/traitor Terminators, hence the retreat ability. Following that logic take away their teleport. The combination of the two is clearly too good.

My other beef is that Paladins have no weaknesses at the moment. There is no reason to get GK Termies if Paladins are not yet on the field. The obvious counter would be power melee considering their SHI and heavy melee weapons. But their health pool, ranged damage and Shockwave ability are too much for stuff like Genestealers or Seer Council to deal with. I think the Shockwave ability in particular fits the Paladins really poorly, it would be much better suited (in a toned-down form) for the GK Termies as they're supposed to be the anti-infantry variant.

Regarding Nids:

I find the Venom Cannon still too good on the Hive Tyrant, that minimum range isn't a big deal I think. Its main problem is its splash damage. If that would be toned down a bit it would still do decent damage vs big targets but not devastate infantry blobs.

I think Raveners could really do with an alternative upgrade that boosts their health and melee damage but disables the devourer option, as it stands they are a terrible counter to set-up teams. Maybe a squad leader with Melee Synapse only affecting the squad.

[Triple d]

Since GK have now multiple AV options it's now time to remove Paladins from the HQ and shift them to the global bar as a call in. With red cost. The retreat problem I would address as following: Give them one retreat and not more. You have to choose wisely when you play this card.

I think I can back that first idea, but I'm unsure of the second.

I can see getting rid of the hell fury strike for a paladin drop in.

[DarnedDragoon]

My 2 cents on Palas/GK Termies:

Iirc the design plan was to differentiate them more from loyalist/traitor Terminators, hence the retreat ability. Following that logic take away their teleport. The combination of the two is clearly too good.

My other beef is that Paladins have no weaknesses at the moment. There is no reason to get GK Termies if Paladins are not yet on the field.

Well as a TM player the most effective strategy I've used is dropping a venerable dreadnought, but of course now Paladins can retreat out. The obviously step is to remove the retreat function, but I would say go even one step further by removing Paladins all together. They have too much hp and are too fast. You can try to say that they need them, but they really don't.

[egewithin]

Since GK have now multiple AV options it's now time to remove Paladins from the HQ and shift them to the global bar as a call in. With red cost. The retreat problem I would address as following: Give them one retreat and not more. You have to choose wisely when you play this card.

Nothing has been like this in this game. No way.

[ytimk]

Please stop using any example outside 1v1 to judge balance.

The mod isnt designed for it, the complications team games create for judging balance rise exponentially with each player added to the field.

They are fun as fuck to watch but forget em, they are just a byproduct of the core focus of the mod/game.







And just because something might be a bit OP/UP doesnt mean it was game-breaking deliberate (read Caeltos's posts about faction direction just go through his post history), this is all an evolving process, no one gets everything right first time. Its a few dudes from around the world trying something out, not a lazy money grubbing free to play dev team. If they were out to troll you they would set up a kickstarter.

[DarnedDragoon]

Please stop using any example outside 1v1 to judge balance.
The mod isnt designed for it, the complications team games create for judging balance rise exponentially with each player added to the field.
They are fun as fuck to watch but forget em, they are just a byproduct of the core focus of the mod/game.
And just because something might be a bit OP/UP doesnt mean it was game-breaking deliberate (read Caeltos's posts about faction direction just go through his post history), this is all an evolving process, no one gets everything right first time. Its a few dudes from around the world trying something out, not a lazy money grubbing free to play dev team. If they were out to troll you they would set up a kickstarter.

Well not considering 2v2 or 3v3 balancing will be even more of a death sentence to this mod, most people play team games. You are right this forum and this thread is for discussing the balance, weighing the pro's and the con's. It's not for people to call the developers trolls.

[Swift]

Since GK have now multiple AV options it's now time to remove Paladins from the HQ and shift them to the global bar as a call in. With red cost. The retreat problem I would address as following: Give them one retreat and not more. You have to choose wisely when you play this card.

Nothing has been like this in this game. No way.

Normal Terminators? Chaos Terminators? Venerable drop? I have no idea what you're trying to say. If you're talking about retreat, that would be a very interesting thing to try out.

All modes should be considered for balance, and although 1v1 may be/may have been the focus, 3v3 cannot be ruled out since it's the most popular.

[Hellstar]

but I would say go even one step further by removing Paladins all together. They have too much hp and are too fast. You can try to say that they need them, but they really don't.

I really don't get why anyone would want to remove any unit from the game. If any particular unit needs adjustments, adjustments can be made. But why remove a unit, especially a cool one?

It's a terminator variant. Some have lightning claws. Some don't. Some have halberds. Some have bolters. Some have assault cannons, some have autocannons, some are called-in using red vs being built. No reason to remove paladins. They are just a different flavor of terminator, and thank God for different flavors, I like factions and units which are unique and different from one another.

I also don't get the mentality of "they don't need them" (I assume you meant grey knights don't need paladins). Whether that is true or not, who cares? I'm sure chaos doesn't need the great unclean one either, but I think it's a cool unit, and I'm glad they have it. Most units in the game probably aren't "needed." My mom said I didn't need the corvette I bought. I told her "who cares?" I told her she doesn't need all the money she has. She doesn't need the nice house she lives in. Etc.

I guarantee you the game could be played perfectly fine with 1 unit for each race. For that matter, multiple races aren't even needed - a single race is all that is needed. Anything beyond 1 unit and 1 race is there to add flavor, dimension, possibilities, variety, etc. The quickest way to make the game uninteresting and boring is to base it on "need."

[DarnedDragoon]

Well I say that because that is the simplest most expedited way to balance the paladins. I find them abusive with their speed and health, and for what purpose do they serve? Extra "flavor"? You are basically saying you buy a paladin squad because it looks cool, not because of the match up. I'm all for more "flavor", but they have to work with the game. Paladins have everything working in their favor: they are a melee unit, health, speed, dps, they don't have pathing issues, they are not micro intensive, they have a teleport, and now a retreat. What are the Paladins weakness? Tanks? Just try it, 9 out of 10 times that tank is going to run into a pathing issue and it's going to be rundown. For SM's walkers with a melee resistance seems like the only solution, when they could chase them down, but now you cant even do that.

[Forestradio]

paladins are fine guys just focus fire them

and ofc satchel charge wiping gens is okay, you can satchel charge your own gens...

[Hellstar]

Well I say that because that is the simplest most expedited way to balance the paladins.

Okay that makes sense on some level, but you do realize that if we used the "simplest most expedited way" to balance all units in the game, there wouldn't be any units in the game? What unit in the game has never had to be adjusted?

I find them abusive with their speed and health

Fine, ask for adjustments then, not removal. I have problems with lots of units in the game - some are highly annoying, and I think others are abusive and OP. But I want nothing removed.

Paladins are just terminators. You act as if terminators can't be adjusted in stats, as if that's some kind of impossible task.

and for what purpose do they serve? Extra "flavor"? You are basically saying you buy a paladin squad because it looks cool, not because of the match up.

I am saying no unit in the game should have to exist out of "need." If we apply that test to every unit in the game, then we can remove most units in the game, and most factions for that matter.

[ThaMollusk]

and ofc satchel charge wiping gens is okay, you can satchel charge your own gens...

Fuggin' lol. Never gets old.

[ILikeBacon3]

The Inquisitorial Operatives Satchel Charge did not do any damage to a Devastator unit in a building, but just to the building. The Devastators were not even trying to get out. It's no big deal, but just wanted you guys to know about this glitch. Other than that the Satchel Charges are great. I used one to kill a falcon that had full hit points.

[DandyFrontline]

The Inquisitorial Operatives Satchel Charge did not do any damage to a Devastator unit in a building, but just to the building. The Devastators were not even trying to get out. It's no big deal, but just wanted you guys to know about this glitch. Other than that the Satchel Charges are great. I used one to kill a falcon that had full hit points.

You should write it to bug thread

[enasni127]

ok, here's what i think about 2.4.1:

1. GK:

- Paladins seem to be too versatile and strong and the retreat/teleport makes it hard to get any chance to chase them down

- IO's shotgun range needs a little decrease imho. in addition their satchel seems to be too strong. especially when used vs gen farms it's just too much of an easy-mode gen bash.

2. IG:

- rocket run is now easy-mode to evade.
i absolutely disagree with its nerf cause of 2 reasons:

1. the RR only fills a small area and both runs need to hit to kill anything, so it was always quite easy to escape from it compared to eldritch or abyss.

2. RR is absolutely garbage vs vehicles and almost useless vs infantry like terminators, nobs etc (everything with high HPs and little model count)

IMO it should hit almost instantly, like it did before, OR it should be like it is now but gets buffed vs vehicles. Right now it's a easy-to-evade-squishy-killer and nothing more. I think it sucks to be honest

- manticore changes seem a bit weird to me. The mantis cost efficiency was pretty bad so it was changed ....but now the former (storm eagle) manticore costs more than ever before PLUS has recieved a cooldown nerf. Its cost efficiency is so worse than ever before and thats bad.
the new manticore with 60sec cooldown and weaker rockets seems to be too expensive with 300/75 for what it does.

- Ogryns: They are still vers situational and overall useless. I still would like to see their charge break supression for a short time or make them immun to knockback to make them usefull.

[Cheekie Monkie]

First of all, I'd like to say that I do love the new direction GK is going. Shifting play into the hit and run, inquisitorial T1 style has breathed new life to a game saturated with generic dudes in power armour. However, I do have a few concerns regarding operatives and the GK T1 in general:

T1 build orders have become more generic
In what game mode, map or matchup would a GK player not consider building ops? Removing both the suppression and jump squad option has created a gaping hole in the GK roster which ops have been stepping up to fill. The very nature of the roles they need to fill requires ops to be very versatile in exchange. Of course, the drawback to this is that ops will be seen in practically every GK game - reminiscent of the old catachans as the rest of the IG army was too inflexible to do anything other than stand and shoot. Add this to stacking warrior acolyte regen, strikes' nature as a support rather than a ranged superiority unit and you get a recipe for generic build orders. Why wouldn't I want multiple ISTs? Why would I want multiple strikes? Why wouldn't I want an ops squad?

Should vanilla ops get infiltration?
Without infiltration, ops are a reasonably durable, high damage, highly mobile unit with reasonable disruption capabilities. Vanilla infiltration, however, takes all these factors all up to 11. They become resistant to ranged damage due to the fact that you can't shoot what you can't see and even partial infiltrate provides decent damage mitigation, their damage potential ramps up as they can flank much more easily and their stun bombs become much more reliable. I suggest making infiltration tied to the fallback plan upgrade, as they're already a very reasonable unit without it.

Also realised that banshees having a harder time retreat killing is an indirect buff to paladins

[Vapor]

Just wanted to note that aspect of fleetness feels like a more attractive option now that strength banshees aren't as good at chasing transports

[Cyris]

I do not feel confident enough with the GK changes to have strong opinions that I am willing to defend, but here are some of my general thoughts so far:

Total agree with Cheekie Monkie: T1 build orders feel a lot less varied. 2x SS is bad in most matchups, 3x IST is just too much for me and Rhino is too fragile, and costs too much power for it's impact. 2x Ops goes downhill fast in T2, or if against an opponent who knows to get detection in T1. I instead focus on upgrades for my BC - agies was important before, but it's now mandatory - and my IST. I also agree that putting some of the potency of the Ops into the upgrade would be good, I was personally thinking reduce their health then give it back in the upgrade, but Infiltration hits similar goals: force more investment. 225/30 is just so cheap for this unit, and I find I skip fallback plan a LOT. I wouldn't mind being more forced to purchase it to make the unit function.

I felt that before this patch, GK T3 was strong but not really viable in 1v1. With this patch, it's way stronger in team games, and still not terribly usable in 1v1. There is a happy medium out there, but I don't think it's here yet. I'd still love to see GK Termies level, have lower starting stats and lower cost / build time, while Pallies become even more of a "Super Unit" - or even go away. The 75s build time on termies is a big part of this. I need to have such a dominating position to even consider going T3, or supreme faith that Shockwave is gonna win me the game

I've only gotten to use Shockwave once, and it sure did gib units. 30 damage listed in tooltip, but it seemed way stronger. OP? I dunno, I've basically lost games to a single Wailing Doom... If anything, it shouldn't be a default ability, make me pay for it. Maybe put it on the Libra Demonica? Teleport too.

Retreat on GK termies is great and I love the direction, but the unit has too many buffs.

INT in T3 are interesting, but if I'm T3 I'm making termies. I'd still like to see these guys in T2 with an upgrade available in T3 to gains their guns.

Satchel charge on gens... I personally have decided to not do it, but I don't see Orks skipping deff, or IG stealth AK Stormtroopers... I have mixed feelings on this. I do wish the damage was something like 50% of a gen. I'd be fine with that, and use it all day.

GK play a bit like Eldar in T1, but without setup teams. It's really weird. Ops take so much micro to use well that I run out of apm come T2 units. GK are more interesting now, but the skill required is just all over the place. T2 is now super hard with many different ranges on units, buffs, flanking directions and no artillery or setup teams. Then suddenly T3 is as easy to micro as ever. It's just so weird that the faction gets easier to play as my units get wiped and replaced in T3, and I have flashbacks to old nid games where losing all my gaunts in late T2/T3 worked out to be a massive advantage

Strangely, the 400 req purgation cost is really turning me off (componded by their high upkeep). GK become heavily req starved in T2, and that starvation is part of why T3 is so bad (1v1 focus here). The power costs of termies is largely irrelevant compared to the req for instance.

[saltychipmunk]

I never quite got why the gk terminators did not cost any red while still costing about the same as sm or chaos terminators in req/ power and having special ability upgrades .

i get the gk t3 was kind of a barren wasteland but i think being able to spam the terminators without having a red drain is a massive issue here .


gk land raider should not be a call in , and the 2 terminators should be.

i agree that the gk terminators did not need that retreat buff what they really need was a more well rounded t3

a thought why don't we buff the assassin some more and stick him in t3? like give him both his upgrades , dont change his cost and stick him in t3, thoughts?


not a huge fan of setup teams and gen bashing , the whole reason why relic removed that feature was because the 2 -3 pillar strategies for locking down a gen farm and clearing it was too powerful and not to mention extremely frustrating in any game mode above 1v1.

[Swift]

Oh I see, as soon as Cheekie Monkey says making infiltration locked behind fallback plan is a good idea everyone loves it.

Doesn't matter that Swift said it first.

In all seriousness i cri evrtyme.

[Cyris]

Oh I see, as soon as Cheekie Monkey says making infiltration locked behind fallback plan is a good idea everyone loves it.

FWIW, I didn't wanna provide feedback until I had played for a while (crazy, I know) and the thread has been quite toxic which didn't put me in a rush to post either

[Superhooper01]

Lol fun reading. i really need to understand why the warlock heart of darkness war-gear has been changed to a ability that does seem needed? I like d cannons now and love the animation. Gk im still adjusting 2 but i went against some 1 who got 3 of the new operatives with shotguns in tier 1 and they chewed up my stuff which i wasnt happy at.

[egewithin]

I never quite got why the gk terminators did not cost any red while still costing about the same as sm or chaos terminators in req/ power

Well, you are directly teleporting over 3700 hp of SHI armored behing of and enemy line. Their melee weapons counters every kind of armor and you are not waiting over 60 seconds to have them on the field. How would you deal with it? They deserve that red cost.

But in that case, why Verenible Dread costs less red the Termies 'cause, flanking enemy line with a Dreadnought in not cool for enemy.

[Arbit]

So I saw Indrid's preview for the new patch and got a little pumped. I decided to watch some MRT 15 games on Rupee's channel and got a little... unpumped, which didn't have anything to do with Rupee's casting (nice job Rupee). I gotta say, a lot of the games tended to be horrible blowouts. Was this because the meta hadn't settled down due to the introduction of new units? Was it the 2v2 format?

A pair of Inquisitorial Operatives instantly destroying a whole gen farm (link and warning for extreme Rupee loudness)... that's pretty egregious.

Also howdy

[Hellstar]

I wouldn't mind being more forced to purchase it to make the unit function.

I'm not commenting here on operatives specifically, but on the general notion of being forced to purchase more to make a unit function. I'm against this sort of mechanic. It seems there are several units in the game which have "mandatory" purchases to make them function at all. To me that's a sign of bad design. Either make the unit come with the mandatory upgrade and increase its cost, or adjust the unit so that it doesn't need mandatory upgrades - that way the player can make an interesting decision instead of automatically budgeting money before buying the unit, then mindlessly mashing "buy upgrade" once the unit pops out.

I never quite got why the gk terminators did not cost any red while still costing about the same as sm or chaos terminators in req/ power and having special ability upgrades .

Why do chaos and sm get to buy landraiders while gk landraiders cost red? It seems that the general thrust of your question is "why aren't all factions the same?" Different factions are different.

a thought why don't we buff the assassin some more and stick him in t3? like give him both his upgrades , dont change his cost and stick him in t3, thoughts?

I kind of had the opposite thought earlier today - stick him down in tier 1 since GK get no suppression there, nor jump squads to deal with setup teams. Plus he's kind of an IG-ish or inquisitorial unit, right? Seems like I'll never use him in T2, and I guaranteed won't use him in T3.

Just my thoughts.

[Swift]

But Hellstar, for their cost Operatives overperform out of the gate, so either make them more expensive or downgrade starting abilities. Also I never get fallback plan, so it may be an incentive.

[ytimk]

DarnedDragoon and Swiftsabre - woops honestly didnt know team games were the outright majority.

Fair enough as I want this mod to grow, but for balance consideration to consider team games into the mix would logically place very significant burdens and quandries on the modders (for being as thorough and commited as they are). Eg:

-economy issues for prices 2v2 and 3v3 are different (req accumulation, team snowball effects);
-red accumulation would work differently;
-the nature of 3v3 map design and number is a seperate issue in itself but what about "big maps favour fast races/allow for gates and tunnels to hide";
-team composition is massive issue itself - mixed teams, single faction teams, duplicate commanders on same team etc. How are you going to account for all these things and still have it work? Three WSE, CL, or LA? Teams that have twin identical superunits? Superunit spam? Twin LRR? Multiple retreat points? Multiple reinforce points reinforcing other factions? Brood nests, gates, beacons, turrets, bunkers, shrines, Chimeras, Razorbacks, Falcons etc. Heal auras stacking/buffing etc;
-Friendly fire/knockback/and team/opponent domino effects;
-Multiple and mixed globals that could prove overly devastating to whole armies/big engagements;
-Trolly/cheesy tactics involving compounding stuns/snares/unit abilities/globals overly messing with single units or whole players?;
-Issues of baselocking maybe?

Some things might always be in conflict with one another (eg broken/UP/OP in one mode but works in another)- what can they do? Create a different version of the mod? A lot of competing factors and a lot of work to get it right for most involved .

It would be awesome if the mod could be harmonised across all these, and I bet they wish they could do it. But all I'm saying is that its rather asking a lot of some passionate but unpaid dudes doing it in their free time, and I would just call for some paitience, acknowledge its a work in progress. Im guessing their method is focus on making it work 1v1 first, sort out the kinks and THEN look to how it impacts teams.


Loving what people are discussing here in the meantime: suggestions for balance and work arounds. And calling for unit to be removed seems a bit hasty, especially after all the hard work put in in the first place, plus the options different units provide for playstyle and the fun of variety. There are so many ways people have already listed to alter Paladins to balance them that I'm sure are being taken on board. Productive discussion booya!

[Hellstar]

But Hellstar, for their cost Operatives overperform out of the gate, so either make them more expensive or downgrade starting abilities. Also I never get fallback plan, so it may be an incentive.

Like I said, I wasn't speaking about operatives specifically. If they need adjustments, by all means adjust them. My comment was directed towards the idea of "mandatory" upgrades that are needed to make a unit function at all. This is not the same thing as saying adjustments to units cannot or should not be made.

I'm not against the idea of putting cloaking into fallback plan (I'm also not for it. My comment on the issue is "no comment").

[xXKageAsashinXx]

Just wondering, from what I've seen and read, does anyone feel that until the dreadknight becomes operational, paladins are right now the super unit for gk? They basically act as an avatar that's squishier, has no aura that affects allies (an ability, but not an aura), do more damage if they all hit on the same target, have one of the same abilities (similar if we go by all the rage on it), and can retreat. People are up about them because they're termies that are too all-rounded, but if you think of them as a super unit (as they act as one with how critical they are to the army comp if the player even goes t3) then they fit in just fine. Should the dk ever make an appearance then things might be too over-performing, but until then I see things as alright provided a few numbers are tweaked.

[appiah4]

Bolded part is BS; The Ops have enough mobility to support and win engagements AND THEN GO AND BASH POWER, only to retreat back to base and cancel retreat midway and join the second engagement.

They are broken as fuck.

Also: Rhino. There and back again.

We need the ops. We literally lost our best gen bashing unit and int in T1. In terms of control and utility, gk is pretty reliant on ops to do both unless we get grenade ist.

Our T1 tankiness is gone and suppression is gone. Meanwhile, the only unit in the Eldar t1 roster to not suppress is dire avengers. We have a lot of straight up dps, but little control or counter without ops.

Just because the developer decided to overcompensate for the loss of T1 suppression doesn't mean it isn't OP. You need something in T1, but Ops as they currently are is MORE than what you need. EVERY faction needs a unit like Ops, they do EVERYTHING. They are to the GKs what Catachans were to retail IG.

The ridiculous setup team damage buff, retreating Paladins.. This just no longer feels like DOW2 to me. Back to Retail (which is somehow better than this patch) until the mod team fixes things.