2.4 Balance Feedback

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Codex
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Codex » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 12:46 pm

Yeah, but the reason that Stikks were out of control was that they were T1, used only red to power their nades, and each volley of real grenades could destroy 1 or 2 gens with a low cooldown. Compared to other grenades, which could be used for gen bashing... at least they would have to upgrade units to access the grenades, and spend energy on those units so they weren't so relentlessly gen bashing rapetasticism.
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Tex » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 1:11 pm

Either way, right now, normal setup teams and killing gen farms faster than a setup team upgraded with an AV weapon. It's just so incredibly wrong.

It rewards setup team spam with the ability to easily gen bash.

Please patch this out asap.
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Torpid » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 1:34 pm

caeltos wrote:Genbashing now is abit too rewarding and punishing compared to the older days.


When did the older days become the precedent from which we base our balance ideals? The older days seen pretty terrible all around from what I remember looking back in hindsight and the further back it goes the worse it gets.

Regardless. I fail to see how gen-bashing is anywhere near too rewarding atm. It's basically necessary to keep eldar in check and if they get afew nodes up around the map anyway then it doesn't matter; ask Darkhero after he has been playing SM vs my eldar to no avail despite having a strategy based around routing me and gen-bashing me hard, early and often. Doesn't matter if I bleed him more, de-cap his nat req points, and node the contested powers. So gen bashing isn't so good after-all and that's in the MU and game mode where it is pretty much strongest.

SUTs being able to gen-bash so fast is absurd... It messes up so many compositions. How will IG ever beat eldar now? Oh, just abuse GM spam and spotters because they are brokenly OP atm, ok fine, w/e but that's a fucking gay way to play IG anyway. Well, they always were just an a-move race.

Which btw is exactly what GK now are. An a-move race. I was playing an IG vs GK MU the other day with Cyris and good God it was awful. It was exactly what I hated about other online competitive games - simple, streamlined and too much based on APM micro not actually battle tactics and strategy or positioning. If DOW2 had normally been like that I would have stopped playing it 3thousand hours ago.

Oops, I went off on a tangent. I mean... it just doesn't make sense. Chaos sorceror can now spam more havocs with less punishment. I'm not even talking about how dumb this is for 3v3 where it encourages an even greater SUT spam especially considering the sniper nerfs vs SUTs and just the laneyness of 3v3 anyway.

Also, wait what? Gen-bashing is too punishing/rewarding so you make it easier to gen bash? This doesn't make any sense.
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby DarnedDragoon » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 2:54 pm

Torpid wrote:SUTs being able to gen-bash so fast is absurd... It messes up so many compositions.
I like to think it helps my TM play with double devs and saves me from spending extra power on a flamer.

Torpid wrote:Which btw is exactly what GK now are. An a-move race. I was playing an IG vs GK MU the other day with Cyris and good God it was awful. It was exactly what I hated about other online competitive games - simple, streamlined and too much based on APM micro not actually battle tactics and strategy or positioning. If DOW2 had normally been like that I would have stopped playing it 3thousand hours ago.
A-move races have always been in the game you have the ork WB+sluggas, eldar farseer/warlock+ banshees, CL/CS+ Heretics, tyrnids HT/LA+ gaunts, and the previously mentioned GKs. All they do is bum rush you and for me as a TM player I can't even try to hold ground until I have my shotguns which any previously mentioned match ups can easily exploit.

Torpid wrote:Oops, I went off on a tangent. I mean... it just doesn't make sense. Chaos sorceror can now spam more havocs with less punishment. I'm not even talking about how dumb this is for 3v3 where it encourages an even greater SUT spam especially considering the sniper nerfs vs SUTs and just the laneyness of 3v3 anyway.
Snipers are still very good against SUTs, plus snipers have their suppression buff now.
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 3:12 pm

DarnedDragoon wrote:A-move races have always been in the game you have the ork WB+sluggas, eldar farseer/warlock+ banshees, CL/CS+ Heretics, tyrnids HT/LA+ gaunts, and the previously mentioned GKs. All they do is bum rush you and for me as a TM player I can't even try to hold ground until I have my shotguns which any previously mentioned match ups can easily exploit.

How are Eldar an A-move race? I believe them to be one of the most non-A-move race in the game. Eldar are the race that depends on positioning and timing of abilities the most.
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Forestradio » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 3:29 pm

Tex wrote:Either way, right now, normal setup teams and killing gen farms faster than a setup team upgraded with an AV weapon. It's just so incredibly wrong.

It rewards setup team spam with the ability to easily gen bash.

Please patch this out asap.
QFT. Tex and I had some lootas/havocs target gen farms. We picked our jaws off the floor and the games went on as normal after that, but seriously, wtf...
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Venjitron » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 3:56 pm

ive had to ban gk from my lobby...fix this
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Myrdal » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 4:46 pm

Please patch this out asap.

Decimal point error, it's in the next hotfix.
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby DarnedDragoon » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 7:40 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:How are Eldar an A-move race? I believe them to be one of the most non-A-move race in the game. Eldar are the race that depends on positioning and timing of abilities the most.


Well look at the map Argus Desert Gate you're playing warlock in the west solo lane against a TM. You start the game by immediately queuing up a banshee squad and immediately rush them to the middle of the lane. There is not much to it. Just click on the Tacs or TM and they do their thing. By the time Scouts have their shotguns you are already on top of the Tacs or TM. It really is that simple.
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Wise Windu » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 7:43 pm

And after that? When SM has their wargears, squads and abilities? Being able to "a-move" as Eldar in the first engagement doesn't make them an a-move race. Giving one example of them a-moving and ignoring every other example isn't a very good argument. Most races in the game have an engagement at some point that doesn't require much micro.
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Venjitron » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 8:01 pm

you can get 2 scouts out and kite the crap out of banshees if first purchased for eldar......once they are forced of your scouts can out melee the starting avenger squad
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Dark Riku » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 8:35 pm

Scouts can teleport now? Interesting :)
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby DarnedDragoon » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 9:26 pm

Wise Windu wrote:And after that? When SM has their wargears, squads and abilities? Being able to "a-move" as Eldar in the first engagement doesn't make them an a-move race. Giving one example of them a-moving and ignoring every other example isn't a very good argument. Most races in the game have an engagement at some point that doesn't require much micro.


Well after that first engagement Eldar has the advantage. They can quickly cap the center power for that lane and the SMs rec point. At the same time their second Direavenger squad is arriving and their GWT isn't far behind. They can just sit back. And what can the TM do? Well go ASMs, or upgrade scouts, or buy a dev and go somewhere else. If ASMs jump your GWT a-move on ASMs. Really when you have a melee commander and melee squads there isn't that much micro involved. You go into tier 2 you get fire dragons/wraith lord/wraith guard and you just a-move them. Tier 3, seer council/avatar/fire prism you just a-move.
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Toilailee » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 10:00 pm

Paladins/gk termies retreating needs to go. They even still have their teleport so they can always use it offensively and wreck the opponents key units and then retreat after soaking up ungodly amounts of damage. :|
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Asmon » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 10:22 pm

Me thinks the same.

If really we'd want to let them retreat then they should lose the teleport, and accelerate much less on retreat for us to be able to chase after them with melee.
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Indrid » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 10:25 pm

They should still take full ranged damage on retreat, being big fat termies that are easy to hit!
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby DandyFrontline » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:00 pm

Just explain me - why did paladins get retreat function? What the reason of that? They were not fat enough? They had some huge weaknesses? They had no teleport? What the freacking reason? I just dont get it.

In my honest opinion Paladins and Termies are too anti-all units that got too many functions to escape so they just totally stop bleeding and give access to call-in LRC as they also dont need red to build.
-How to balance it? Add some weaknesses. For example: reduce each models HP let's say to 1000-1100 (3000-3300hp summary) but add lot's of psyker powers but they will need energy to use it so you need to choice smart how and what abilities to use. Or reduce their HP to 1000-1100 but add a specific energy shield (same again - energy depended unit so you need to calculate how to spend it). Or made some ability that makes them strong and fat enough but their energy will drain with the time, and the lower energy level they got the weaker they become. Something like that or whatever you can propose because at the moment those units are BS.
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Venjitron » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:50 pm

gk termies need a massive hp reduction 1000 and lower hp regen or 1500...think this threads covered ops
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Bahamut » Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:57 pm

one thing i can't understand is why termiantors can't teleport out of chains of torment.. makes CS just absurdly strong against terminators
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Swift » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 12:14 am

Just played a 1v1 against a Lictor Alpha player, we both made mistakes and he was a bit rusty, but it just shows that through all my mistakes GK carried me. Satchel charge on gens, Shockwave wiped a squad of full health Hormagaunts in a second, he couldn't have even noticed it happening it was so quick and powerful, and Operatives tore through the LA.

I love Operatives, but Paladins are just too much. Shockwave, retreat, wrist mounted weapon damage. They need a real health decrease or Shockwave and retreat need to go. And the burst damage on the Incinerators is horrific.
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Paradise Lost » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 12:27 am

Paladins were already the tankiest, most cost-effective terminator variant out there. They costed no red, had the most health, and a really good ability.

There was literally no reason for giving them these buffs. Their new OP shockwave and increased health regen were already absurd, allowing them to retreat is just the icing on the cake.

It's almost like this was a joke done on purpose...
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Hellstar » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 12:57 am

If I read the patch notes right, GK terminators and paladins already got health nerfs, they don't need more health nerfs. We don't want to turn the race into another glass cannon race - if you want one of those then bring in the Tau. If you insist on more health nerfs then just revert the terminator/paladin changes and make them the way they were before. I don't want to play with glass cannon terminators or paladins - it's absurd.

Venjitron wrote:ive had to ban gk from my lobby...fix this


They got objectively much harder to play. Yet you say you had to ban them from your lobby. I don't believe it. I think it's just piling on at this point.

They are objectively much worse (i.e. nerfed) at my skill level. So are the eldar. So that's two more races I can't play anymore. I guess it's time to learn space marines like everyone else.

EDIT: Everyone says that they are now OP at the high-skill level. And they are nerfed and UP at my skill level. So we all agree... revert the changes? Or, maybe move interceptors/purgation back to T1, move operatives to T2?
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Triple d » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 3:28 am

Ok guys calm down before the wrath of moderators comes down on the thread.

Torpid your right he is being silly but he has a point I think people are ignoring because they don't know the issue.

In low level games the meta is different. Now it's easy to say it's a skill thing, and that because it is. However another problem is that the low level meta has a much heavier focus on melee units then the high level meta.

I don't know why it's just the way it is and I don't think it's worth arguing over.

I bring this up, because at the moment the best response to operative play I have seen so far was a mass melee build in tier 1. It was just really rough and I won that match but it was mostly due to good abuse of a purgation squad in its default form come tier 2.

Assuming he makes sure he plays people at comparable levels and doesn't just auto accept every match up its not that unreasonable to think his difficulty with Grey knights isn't just a learn to play issue.

Now can we go back to actually discussing balance issues without insulting eachother?
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Atlas » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 3:57 am

Why don't we just allow Purgations to start with psycannons and make it a 400/40 squad? How many people are really buying them in T2 to keep them in their flamer mode anyway?
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Torpid » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 4:19 am

Atlas wrote:Why don't we just allow Purgations to start with psycannons and make it a 400/40 squad? How many people are really buying them in T2 to keep them in their flamer mode anyway?


I did earlier today in a 1v1 vs double sluggas and stormboyz come T2, so... Nah I like those flamers. The only alternative would be a dread, or purifiers really and I already had a heavy bolter rhino so I didn't want even more vehicles and purifiers would get wrecked by three of the ork t2 melee squads.
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby egewithin » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 5:11 am

Toilailee wrote:Paladins/gk termies retreating needs to go. They even still have their teleport so they can always use it offensively and wreck the opponents key units and then retreat after soaking up ungodly amounts of damage. :|


What if their retreat costs energy just like all of their abilitys. So they can't just teleport and retreat if they are in trouble?
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Hellstar » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 5:30 am

Atlas wrote:Why don't we just allow Purgations to start with psycannons and make it a 400/40 squad? How many people are really buying them in T2 to keep them in their flamer mode anyway?


I like the idea of having flamers and suppression, but it is true I haven't found any use for them in T2 yet. They seem to die to other T2 infantry, and seem to come too late for suppression anyway as there are vehicles on the field, jump troops, etc. Perhaps move back to T1?
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Aetherion » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 6:40 am

firatwithin wrote:
Toilailee wrote:Paladins/gk termies retreating needs to go. They even still have their teleport so they can always use it offensively and wreck the opponents key units and then retreat after soaking up ungodly amounts of damage. :|


What if their retreat costs energy just like all of their abilitys. So they can't just teleport and retreat if they are in trouble?


I think this is quite a fair idea; it'll force better energy management via strikes purification and maybe BC canticle. Paladins will find it much riskier to teleport in and shockwave everything.
If teleport costs 60, how much should retreat cost?
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Swift » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 9:54 am

I don't think any energy cost on retreat makes a difference, because they'll regenerate the energy between engagements anyway, the theory of allowing for teleport or retreat is a nice one, but I can't see it working as the Paladins can just waltz up absorbing damage, shockwave, and eventually retreat.
Triple d wrote:Ok guys calm down before the wrath of moderators comes down on the thread.

This forum doesn't seem to work like that, I think everyone's quite relaxed 8-)
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Re: 2.4 Balance Feedback

Postby Ar-Aamon » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 10:49 am

Since GK have now multiple AV options it's now time to remove Paladins from the HQ and shift them to the global bar as a call in. With red cost. The retreat problem I would address as following: Give them one retreat and not more. You have to choose wisely when you play this card.

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