(IG) buff leman russ plasma executioner

[karnakkardak]

it is not worth at cost than vanqushier cannon. vanquisher has long range, efective all target to dealing. But executioner dont.

so i think give to it another attack mode-'Valleyshot' make them attack like a sm plasma cannon. This will be better solve to counter meq blob, and counter wraithguard.

[lolzarz]

The Vanquisher cannon, due to lack of splash and being a cannon, is ineffective against most infantry. The executioner deals more damage towards small targets and gets the bonus against heavy and super heavy infantry due to plasma cannon damage type. Nothing wrong with it.

[karnakkardak]

executioner's problem is because of their short range, they will 1st target enemy AT unit. And die fast unless move out as soon as possible. can dealing shi/hi? Nope. Get it?

And i know good example like this; Grey knight dreadnought with plasma cannon.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Im not a IG player and im drunk as fuck, but I think the Executioner upgrade is pretty balanced IMHO. Its true, it have lower ramge, but the Leman Russ have two things which mitigates this downside and makes this upgrade viable: his synergy with Guardsmen and his passive front damage reduction effect.

[lolzarz]

executioner's problem is because of their short range, they will 1st target enemy AT unit. And die fast unless move out as soon as possible. can dealing shi/hi? Nope. Get it?

And i know good example like this; Grey knight dreadnought with plasma cannon.

Your. Leman. Russes. Die.

Son, you don't know shit and you just ain't doing it right.

[Sub_Zero]

And some time ago I wanted to propose a nerf to this thing...

It absolutely wrecks anything that is not a vehicle, really painful. And even against vehicles it is decent. Don't forget how "tanky" IG's tanks are and how much support they receive.

The other option is really one dimensional and I would say that it may be the thing to look at. It doesn't seem as powerful as a lascannon. It has an extended range but it is no fire-prism to be an artillery mobile platform. IG's tanks should be on the frontline and tank damage (they really good at it). So I don't find that extended range especially beneficial because IG mostly consists of ranged units and hence you don't get additional sight from melee oriented units, especially jump units. Use it in tandem with ogryns?

[Dark Riku]

Unless you come up with some better and well thought out arguments nobody is going to take you serious.
Not going to make much words dirty on this: the upgrade is just fine, it has its place.

[egewithin]

Well, we imagined if we can give a plasma cannon to Dreadnought, it would be awsome before elite mod. Now I have it in GK and it is not working well. No a cool but useless idea IMO (and experiance)

Exec. upgrade is very interesting and only downside of this upgrade is that it's range. In the other hand, gives you a lot of good stuff. I really like it and I don't want to loose it.

[Triple d]

This thread is kind of funny since I would bank on the executioner being the best of the three cannon variations, while the vanquisher is the worst.

For one thing, that executioner is literally almost the perfect weapon. It only has one downside and that is its range. And even then the Russ is ttough, quick, and has such fabulous support that this isn't really an issue for it. If you are really that worried about it you can use it defensively To punish anything that comes out of cover.

That default cannon is pretty sweet too. I've gone whole games without ever upgrading the thing.

I always cringe a bit whenever I have to buy the vanquisher though and I really do mean cringe. It's a fabulous anti tank weapon don't get me wrong, doing a bit less then what 40 dps compared to most other anti vehicle that barely tops 20dps.
But the damn attack range upgrade is useless. I play the INQ more often then not, so I have the most options for getting the thing vision with infiltration or the servo-skull but it is still a massive pain To actually make use of that extra range. Plus I miss that infantry damage I used to have, or could have had.

You know what I would love?
I won love if that vanquisher got a sight radius increase in addition to the range increase

[Cheah18]

Executioner can really be so awesome if bought at the right time. I had a game vs Nurland where I had just lost all map control vs his chaos and then come tier 3 my executioner started wrecking everything and won it back for me

[Toilailee]

Executioner can really be so awesome if bought at the right time. I had a game vs Nurland where I had just lost all map control vs his chaos and then come tier 3 my executioner started wrecking everything and won it back for me

I'd like to see that replay please. :]

[Nurland]

Overall I think it was the T2 genbash that made a larger impact. Anyway the sexecutioner really destroys compositions that rely heavily on infantry.

[enasni127]

And even then the Russ is ttough, quick, and has such fabulous support that this isn't really an issue for it. If you are really that worried about it you can use it defensively To punish anything that comes out of cover.

The leman russ is the slowest of all battle tanks in this game, so it is for sure not quick. In addition the leman russ' weapons are weaker than those of a predator for example but do cost more money. This shouldn't be cause you already have higher costs on the tank purchase. The leman russ main cannon can be quite useful but is for sure weaker than many other tanks standard weapons.

So far, there are only 2 right and valuable points in this whole thread:

1. the leman russ is the tankiest tank
2. its weapon upgrades are very expensive


BUT

Caeltos already said he would like to change the costs of the russ and IG's overall req-situation in the next patch(es), so i think it's best to wait for it. I, personally, like the executioner cannon vs termis, nobs etc and i love the vanquisher cannon vs tanks. I just think both cannons are too expensive when compared with other tanks' weapon upgrades.

[Nurland]

The purchase cost of the tank (or any other unit for the matter) shouldn't necessarily affect the cost of the upgrades. I don't really see the logic there.

[Dark Riku]

@enasni127

The speed difference between a pred an LR is only 0.5 !
And even then your statement depends on your definition of a battle tank.
Is a fire prism not a battle tank? It has the same speed as the LR.
How about a nurgle predator? It has lower speed than the LR.
A LR only costs 50 req more and you get a natural protection of 35%!!

As for damage output, It's marginally lower, don't forget the lascannon either.

You also can't forget the better repair support the LR has.

[Ven]

Ok so lets put this thread to rest.

The Leman Russ has a passive 35% damage mitigation to simulate IGs superior armor compared to other races.
if you get the elite tank crew upgrade, this mitigation provides an eHP (effective HP) of: 1080HP. that's a lot, and thats just at level 1.

Imperial guardsmen repair 50% faster than any other repair unit in the game other than the repair commanders, guardsmen repair just as fast as a tech marine basically.

im not a vivid IG player, but just those thing combines to me scream; "why would you call me UP?"
imo the executioner is a niche upgrade, and as ive comes to learn over the past year or so; an upgrade being a niche is never a bad thing.

why do you think the LRs default cannon does so much damage and why so many people opt for not giving their tank an upgrade weapon? because its like the preds auto cannon, its useful in most situations and doesn't cost you a penny more.

Vanquisher is used to out shoot and out ranger other tanks (even though LR does that for the most party with its default weapon anyway in most cases) while the Executioner is for going up close and melting infantrys faces very quickly. the reduced range is a con yes but the splash damage is the usual seller imo, very good vs blobby races and as it does plasma damage it does extra damage vs the less blobby races.

[enasni127]

@ Riku: This is ofcourse right, but the lascannon doesn't deal great damage vs all target types and its firepower is still lower than a pred's for example. in addition the LR's weapon upgrades are more expensive and deal less damage than for example a pred's lascannon. I did never say it's underpowered or not fair, I think the LR is a great tank and it should not be changed atm - there's just no reason to do so.

@ Ven: What people don't understand is that you cannot nerf a tank just cause of its support - you should nerf the support if the support is too good (and thats what the mods did for bunkers and GM's). Also, there seem to be different opinions about the true rate of guardsmen repair. I remember it's equal to commander-repair but even windu was not sure anymore in another thread about it.

My conclusion is that the leman russ is a slow bullwark-like tank which has great defensive potential. It's neither a "hunter", nor is it a real killing machine. It's more like a very tanky machine which adds standing power to an army of squishy units. I think that's what it should be like and I don't see any need to nerf or even buff it.

[Kentation]

@ Ven: What people don't understand is that you cannot nerf a tank just cause of its support - you should nerf the support if the support is too good (and thats what the mods did for bunkers and GM's). Also, there seem to be different opinions about the true rate of guardsmen repair. I remember it's equal to commander-repair but even windu was not sure anymore in another thread about it.

I believe Wise Windu was referring to Toilailee's post which was

It was definitely nerfed to 15hp/s at one point... was it rebuffed?

Just to clear this up, its "20 health per second with one Guardsman squad. Any additional squads repairing will repair an additional 10 hp/s."

There was a post Arbit made where he tested the repair - > http://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=670&p=25340#p25340

Imperial guardsmen repair 50% faster than any other repair unit in the game other than the repair commanders

100% faster for the first squad. 50% means you adding half the value so that would mean 15hp/s (I hope I'm right)

guardsmen repair just as fast as a tech marine basically.

Codex states it's 10hp/s for the Techmarine, Mekboy and Plague Marine, is this right?

[Wise Windu]

@ Ven: What people don't understand is that you cannot nerf a tank just cause of its support - you should nerf the support if the support is too good (and thats what the mods did for bunkers and GM's). Also, there seem to be different opinions about the true rate of guardsmen repair. I remember it's equal to commander-repair but even windu was not sure anymore in another thread about it.

I believe Wise Windu was referring to Toilailee's post which was

It was definitely nerfed to 15hp/s at one point... was it rebuffed?

Just to clear this up, its "20 health per second with one Guardsman squad. Any additional squads repairing will repair an additional 10 hp/s."

There was a post Arbit made where he tested the repair - > http://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=670&p=25340#p25340

Yep, it's 20 hp/s with 1 squad. They repair 100% faster. The thing I wasn't sure about was whether or not it had been nerfed and then rebuffed. I haven't been working on Elite for that long

And yes, the hero repairs are 10 hp/s.

[Dark Riku]

Imperial guardsmen repair 50% faster than any other repair unit in the game other than the repair commanders, guardsmen repair just as fast as a tech marine basically.

As you can see above this is false. A GM repairs double as fast as a techmarine that trained on Mars cuz reasons

.... you should nerf the support if the support is too good (and thats what the mods did for bunkers and GM's). ...

The bunkers got buffed. I don't know why you'd think they got nerfed. Their repair rate has been changed a bit in a patch but their overal performance is way better than that of retail. Just look at their costs.

[Nurland]

Also regarding the Vanquisher cannon... LR has 55 weapon range and 55 sight radius (with elite tank crew). So I don't really see how the range does not benefit the IG player as some ppl here have claimed.

[Cheekie Monkie]

Imperial guardsmen repair 50% faster than any other repair unit in the game other than the repair commanders, guardsmen repair just as fast as a tech marine basically.

As you can see above this is false. A GM repairs double as fast as a techmarine that trained on Mars cuz reasons

TM spends too much time praying to stuff and not enough time fixing stuff, so the reasoning is perfectly lore accurate.

[lolzarz]

As you can see above this is false. A GM repairs double as fast as a techmarine that trained on Mars cuz reasons

Or maybe it's because 10 dudes repair stuff faster than 1 dude. I don't know man.

[Dark Riku]

TM spends too much time praying to stuff and not enough time fixing stuff, so the reasoning is perfectly lore accurate.

The machine spirit is angered by this heresy !!

Or maybe it's because 10 dudes repair stuff faster than 1 dude. I don't know man.

Not sure if serious, but I want to answer anyway. ^^
Have you ever repaired anything? A 2nd guy to hand you things might be usefull, any more people though would just be in your way.
A TM has this nice servo arm or even harness on that can bend and work on metal. While GM have their bare hands... yea.

Sorry for the off-topic fluff stuff

[fankater]

Can we just make plasma beams tavel faster ?
We can also replace executioner variant with exterminator (twin linked autocannons).

[Sub_Zero]

Can we just make plasma beams tavel faster ?

If we do it will be out of control. It will become really good against vehicles. And it shouldn't be good against vehicles given what terrific things it does to anything but vehicles.

[Sturnn]

We can also replace executioner variant with exterminator (twin linked autocannons).

Which type of autocannons? Like predator's or HWT's?

[enasni127]

.... you should nerf the support if the support is too good (and thats what the mods did for bunkers and GM's). ...

The bunkers got buffed. I don't know why you'd think they got nerfed. Their repair rate has been changed a bit in a patch but their overal performance is way better than that of retail. Just look at their costs.

Ok, to be more precise: The former elite mod bunker was better than the current version. I usually don't compare elite mod changes/stats with changes/stats of retail cause the overall flow of the elite mod differs alot from retail.

[Protagonist]

The executioner is a higher risk weapon than the vanquisher since it does have to get closer to the action BUT unlike the vanquisher, an executioner can go on a killing spree and absolutely annihilate unprepared infantry armies. Its well worth the risk and current cost.

[crippler38]

I just wish it didn't kill my ogryns when I use it