(SM) Terminator buffs

[Torpid]

For a while now I think (SM) terminators have been underperforming. Firstly, in team games, it is very difficult to defeat an enemy army full of endless kasrkin and the like if you cannot spam terminators (predators are only good in ones or maybe twos, not in spams as they certainly have diminished marginal returns due to more and more AV coming out and killing them very fast). Why does the terminator global have a 7minute cooldown? Terminators too OP? I hardly see it. They've only become less and less useful in the elite mod due to all the other methods of killing them that have been introduced and it's not like someone getting a couple of terminators is going to win them the game anymore like it may have on retail vs orks or nids or even IG.

I think 4minutes would be more appropriate to be honest, or if that's pushing the boundaries too much, reverting it back to 5mins would be appropriate. There doesn't appear to me for there to be any reason for that cooldown being so high.

Also, one buff for the SM terminators that I think might be appropriate would be a reduced melee resistance aura. Not a normal one, I think that would be too strong, they are doing fantastic dps at ranged after-all. Instead, a pseudo-one, like, for example a 15% resistance to melee damage. Also, an increase in their regen to 2hp/s per model from 1.5. Clearly, these terminators are meant to be purchased in order to bleed the foe ceaselessly while not bleeding themselves due to their staying power. That's their main purpose and that's when I get them in 1v1. Getting them vs an ork or an eldar that are still in T2 for example is pretty much GG due to the bleed that they inflict but right now they're unfairly niche, especially in comparison to the chaos variants and I don't think they pull their weight well enough in teams.

Combine these changes with the addition of melta terminators proposed in that other thread (which has now gone missing).

And I think we will see a lot more ranged terminators even in 1v1 again. They will be exceptionally helpful in the SM vs orks(assault cannon)/eldar (assault cannon)/nids (melta if they are T3, flamer if they are T2 i.e. zoan spam or rav spam), GK (melta) and IG too (Flamer or melta vs multiple ogryns). Missle termies would still be very potent in team-games.

The assault cannon also seems quite overpriced though at a whopping 80 power. I feel 60 power would be more than appropriate.

Why do chaos not need these buffs? Well it's an entirely different composition/race buddy. Chaos have far more stuff to counter-initiate melee with. Bloodletters, their suppressing tics, their heroes all being amazing vs melee. Chaos terminators perform adequately as it is as they fulfill a role within the chaos composition that was otherwise very lacking. Due to sterngurd and the dev/libby as well as ranged dreads though, ranged SM termies don't quite do the same.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

If i'am right GK termies only has hp regen of 0.5..
FC AT regen of 2 ,Regular termies of 1.5
Chaos termies regen 1.5

Agree on assault cannon price , remove melee resistance? Why? Range termies chased by Nobz/Seer council not a nice thing to watch

[Cyris]

Removing Terminator levels was a fix needed in the past, that is no longer relevant, and I think is part of what is keeping them from having the impact they need to. All races now have ample way of punishing terminators in T3.

I also agree the regen numbers could go higher, even at the exhange of losing some more damage. And agree on the assault cannon price.

[MaxPower]

If i'am right GK termies only has hp regen of 0.5..
FC AT regen of 2 ,Regular termies of 1.5
Chaos termies regen 1.5

Agree on assault cannon price , remove melee resistance? Why? Range termies chased by Nobz/Seer council not a nice thing to watch

I think Torpid meant that ranged terminators should gain a 15% melee resistance.

Also agreed on everything Torpid said or as Crysis said, if you dont want to reduce the cooldown how about giving Terminators the leveling mechanics back?

[Torpid]

If i'am right GK termies only has hp regen of 0.5..
FC AT regen of 2 ,Regular termies of 1.5
Chaos termies regen 1.5

Agree on assault cannon price , remove melee resistance? Why? Range termies chased by Nobz/Seer council not a nice thing to watch

Ranged terminators don't get any melee resistance, I think they should get a weak one. Assault terminators and should keep the same melee resistance that they already have.

[Nurland]

IF leveling was to be introduced to Termies again, it should be a hugely reduced version of the previous leveling.

[Atlas]

That's two threads now I see you call out Kasrkin in Torpid

Anyway, I don't play SM that much anymore but when I do I almost always lean towards the tank in T3. I agree that it's a very terminator-unfriendly game right now and so long as these stay exclusive to SM termis, I'd be willing to try these changes out. CTerms have stupid good weapons right now and GK Terms lol their way through basically anything atm.

[Sub_Zero]

The assault cannon also seems quite overpriced though at a whopping 80 power. I feel 60 power would be more than appropriate.

I've always thought so. Piercing weapon in T3 for this price? You have to be kidding me.

This is the only thing I am certain about.

I would experiment with melee resistance aura. I would give them the normal one. Let's face it. The space marines are probably the worst faction in the whole game when it comes to units capable of proper counter-initiation. Shotgun scouts? Piercing + 50% resistance from ranged sources, these two factors make scouts really inferior to any other melee unit, no matter how much damage they do close up. Librarian? No way he is considered a strong melee unit. Vanguard veterans? Good luck deploying them (the process requires too much time).

If they are to receive the normal melee resistance then their cost may jump up to 125 power or so. I would gladly pay that if you ask.

Just for an experiment.

And I like the idea of giving them melta weaponry. Some things to clarify. Price? Range?

[egewithin]

First of all, for all people who wants to read Combi-melta post ; http://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1568

I totally agree with this post. SM Termies are weak against other variants of them. Their weapons are mostly anti-infantry based and in T3, there aren't that much infantry that I can burn with heavy flamer. Also, SM can not stand against SHI's like Paladins, GK Termies or leveled up Nobz. If you are using FC, you can get Assault Termies but if you play Apo, that's some trouble. What about super big walkers? Swarmlord, Avatar, GUO, ... With other Termies, you can deal with them. I can stop a Swarmlord with Paladins if I support them. But SM Termies can not.

Yes, Assault Cannon is really overprized. 80 power? That's alot! Even the amazing Autocannon has this prize and it deserves it. At least it counters everything but Assault Cannon can not. Just not worth it.

Also, their insade of a Tactical Dreadnought armor. Can't that thing give them more hp-regen and a bit melee resistance? Remember, Termies are most Veteran warriors in Astartes, even they have powerfists, they should be able to block a bit Seer Council's jumps.

That cool down is stupid. If a GK player has enough resources, he can bring up 2 GK Termies in less than 2 minutes or close to 2 minutes. And why SM / CSM Termies have a cool down even? If I have enough resources, why I can't bring up my Terminators as often as I want?

[Cyris]

FWIW, I don't really like Melee Resist on ranged termies. Let melee still mess them up, but give them more potency in other areas (cheaper upgrades, new upgrades, more regen, lower cost, whatever)

[Torpid]

FWIW, I don't really like Melee Resist on ranged termies. Let melee still mess them up, but give them more potency in other areas (cheaper upgrades, new upgrades, more regen, lower cost, whatever)

I certainly wouldn't want them to have the full one. But I think the niche role of these termies is to be very sustainable and tanky; certainly not to hold their own vs melee. However melee does considerably more dps than ranged fire and so just increases their hp to compensate for melee wrecking them is unfair for ranged counters to them. So I think the half-melee resistance might be appropriate as a middle ground behind the two ideals.

[Tiptoes]

I'm probably not the most qualified to talk about the unit balance aspects of this discussion (regen, melee resistance, assault cannon price), but I do think SM terminators could use a little love. And I fully support giving terminators a new weapon (as per the other thread) and adjusting the purchasing mechanics.

The cooldown always seemed a bit odd to me, given that they're a unit capped at 1 anyway (also, is it just units called down from global abilities that have cooldowns?). And even if the cooldown is necessary, it does seem a bit too long. And maybe it's just me, but having the cooldown shared between assault and ranged terminators for the FC always kind of bothered me. But again, this may be for a very good reason I'm unaware of.

Just as a point of curiosity, is the higher power cost and longer production time of GK terminators considered an even trade-off for SM/CSM terminators having a lower power cost and requiring lots of red, but producing instantly?

[Dalakh]

That cool down is stupid. If a GK player has enough resources, he can bring up 2 GK Termies in less than 2 minutes or close to 2 minutes. And why SM / CSM Termies have a cool down even? If I have enough resources, why I can't bring up my Terminators as often as I want?

No that cooldown is not stupid. It's the GK's ability to spam terminators that's stupid.

[egewithin]

That cool down is stupid. If a GK player has enough resources, he can bring up 2 GK Termies in less than 2 minutes or close to 2 minutes. And why SM / CSM Termies have a cool down even? If I have enough resources, why I can't bring up my Terminators as often as I want?

No that cooldown is not stupid. It's the GK's ability to spam terminators that's stupid.

Codex Astartes supports this post.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

IIRC, the inclusion of the new units to ELITE to counter Terminators was because in retail in some matchups fielding a squad of Terminators (except massive fail from the SM player) resulted in a enemy "Oh shiet, how could I deal with this boys" think. Two squads of Terminators in the field (it could happen in long games) was undoubtedly a GG from the no SM player.

Said this, I'm not against a buff for SM Terminators. Lets start with little buffs (power cost decrease in some weapons, reduced cooldown to field them...) before trying more "radical" options.

I have the feeling that the "Inspire" effect could have a little rework.

[lolzarz]

There's no way the terminator assault cannon can cost 100/80; the dreadnought assault cannon is 100/30 and it comes with an absolutely fabulous ability. Meanwhile, the terminator assault cannon is basically a 25 piercing DPS upgrade at... 100/80? What? Why would I choose that over cyclone again? I support a vast reduction in assault cannon pricing, and maybe even giving them another ability with the assault cannon.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

If i'am right GK termies only has hp regen of 0.5..
FC AT regen of 2 ,Regular termies of 1.5
Chaos termies regen 1.5

Agree on assault cannon price , remove melee resistance? Why? Range termies chased by Nobz/Seer council not a nice thing to watch

I think Torpid meant that ranged terminators should gain a 15% melee resistance.

Also agreed on everything Torpid said or as Crysis said, if you dont want to reduce the cooldown how about giving Terminators the leveling mechanics back?

If i'am right GK termies only has hp regen of 0.5..

FC AT regen of 2 ,Regular termies of 1.5
Chaos termies regen 1.5

Agree on assault cannon price , remove melee resistance? Why? Range termies chased by Nobz/Seer council not a nice thing to watch

Ranged terminators don't get any melee resistance, I think they should get a weak one. Assault terminators and should keep the same melee resistance that they already have.

Oh Ok,makes sense to me now.

[DandyFrontline]

Just... cant... read.... this HERESY

[egewithin]

There's no way the terminator assault cannon can cost 100/80; the dreadnought assault cannon is 100/30 and it comes with an absolutely fabulous ability. Meanwhile, the terminator assault cannon is basically a 25 piercing DPS upgrade at... 100/80? What? Why would I choose that over cyclone again? I support a vast reduction in assault cannon pricing, and maybe even giving them another ability with the assault cannon.

Now you pointed on something good.

[Ven]

I've always thought so. Piercing weapon in T3 for this price? You have to be kidding me.

people seem to forget about a lot of things other than their weapons. you're paying 650/100/350 for: A no build time squad, dropped anywhere on the field, SHI that start out with both melee_heavy and piercing weapons that do a lot of dps, Inspiration on kill and finally some extremely useful if somewhat overpriced upgrades.

those piercing weapons they start out with are awesome, allowing you to pick off squishy models and get inspiration buffs stacking up.
its not like the assault cannon is good for that, it fires in long bursts so if the model they're firing at dies early (like said aforementioned squishy model) then the AC model has to go through his weapon cooldown early, the assault cannon is horrible for swarmy races imo, and i value their default weapons higher than the assault cannon in almost every case

Librarian? No way he is considered a strong melee unit.

he may not be considered it but that might be because not many people get him. his force staff does 71 power melee DPS, thats A LOT and the force barrier if timed right can stop litterally anything but vehicles from approaching. hes a better counter initiation tool than people give him credit for. hell, maybe even try gating devs out right as a jump squad jumps them.

If they are to receive the normal melee resistance then their cost may jump up to 125 power or so. I would gladly pay that if you ask.

agreed.

The cooldown always seemed a bit odd to me, given that they're a unit capped at 1 anyway

terminators are not capped at 1, you can get as many as your population cap allows.

Just as a point of curiosity, is the higher power cost and longer production time of GK terminators considered an even trade-off for SM/CSM terminators having a lower power cost and requiring lots of red, but producing instantly?

i think you hit the nail on the head here, people seem to forget that you're paying red for an instant purchase compared to the obvious disadvantage a build time incurs.

[Torpid]

One thing to remember about the assault cannon is that it has above average range - 49, compared to the 38 of most ranged weapons. That's a nice boon. Still, that's nowhere near worth 80 power. Also, pretty sure the assault cannon does serious courage damage so it will eventually suppress squads too. Suffice to say it's very nice fire support, but again, not worth 80 power for extra courage damage and a 25piercing dps upgrade...

[Nurland]

Yeah. It does nice damage but not 80 power nice.

[Sub_Zero]

I have the feeling that the "Inspire" effect could have a little rework.

I agree. And I think you have in mind the bonus to suppression resistance. It is just too situational. Suppression teams are not fought head on (ASM, snipers, pdevs and other options). And beside them there are not so many effects that suppress you. Instead of that simply allow them to make their allies receive less damage. And now that is always nice.

people seem to forget about a lot of things other than their weapons. you're paying 650/100/350 for: A no build time squad, dropped anywhere on the field, SHI that start out with both melee_heavy and piercing weapons that do a lot of dps, Inspiration on kill and finally some extremely useful if somewhat overpriced upgrades.

those piercing weapons they start out with are awesome, allowing you to pick off squishy models and get inspiration buffs stacking up.
its not like the assault cannon is good for that, it fires in long bursts so if the model they're firing at dies early (like said aforementioned squishy model) then the AC model has to go through his weapon cooldown early, the assault cannon is horrible for swarmy races imo, and i value their default weapons higher than the assault cannon in almost every case

I don't understand why you need to explain to me what terminators are. I don't have a problem with that. My point was exactly about their one specific weapon option and its cost being inappropriate. And then you describe how bad this weapon is. I don't really know what I should extract from this kind of post.

he may not be considered it but that might be because not many people get him. his force staff does 71 power melee DPS, thats A LOT and the force barrier if timed right can stop litterally anything but vehicles from approaching. hes a better counter initiation tool than people give him credit for. hell, maybe even try gating devs out right as a jump squad jumps them.

I don't think he is even remotely close to >150 DPS melee machines the space marines have no access to. This is again my point - no dedicated melee units. And in my book 70 dps ain't something scary.
His barrier only allows you to divide and conquer if used right. Otherwise you just delay your enemy's advance. Friendly projectiles do not penetrate the barrier. So not really a good tool against melee unlike say a weirdboy's incredibly OP vomit (it really is).
Gates of infinity is a tricky ability, it requires you to position your librarian creatively and I prefer other usages for that. Veil of time does all you need to dodge jump units (you need to anticipate their jump) and then send them to oblivion with devs themselves. There is no counter to that unless you have 2 jump units but then again devs can dodge a second jump unit as well. Sometimes I don't really understand why you need the presence of your librarian. If you use devs under veil of time effectively then you force retreat on whole armies. People are yet to understand how to counter that because the effective usage of veiled devs is almost never seen.
Setup teams either hold off entire armies or retreat very soon if countered properly. They are countered with no problem because they are static and have low health. But imagine a super mobile setup team in the hands of an agile player. It is really really hard to deal with that. And especially with shotgun scouts and ASM around. You need a vehicle to break that superior infantry-based force.

[Sneery_Thug]

Let's keep in mind, that SM are the most popular race in the whole game (not only elite , but in wh40k generally). I guess they're even more popular than Chaos. So if terminators receive a buff (or vanguards get the cost of powerfist lowered/get a melta pistol with it, or tacs/sternguard receive a t3 upgrade (let alone give them a dedicated melee unit except of dread) etc etc), then we will see SM in every single game. And this would be rather... not good.)
Sorry for going off topic, just think, this could be considered.

[Dark Riku]

@Sneery_Thug

What kind of "logic" is that? You want to not consider changing a race for the better because they are popular? °_O
People mainly play 40K for fun and the fluff, majority usually likes a race and sticks with it.

[Sturnn]

+1 up