Dark Excommunication

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Slaaneshi Cacophony
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Dark Excommunication

Postby Slaaneshi Cacophony » Sat 14 Mar, 2015 1:28 am

Is there any sign of this global being changed in the future? GK already have a host of annoying abilities that drain energy and shut down ability use in an area but disabling all enemy abilities for 15 seconds is absolutely ridiculous, especially in team games and can turn the entire tide of an engagement with zero effort. If you could target a specific area to shut down abilities or specific squads, maybe it wouldn't be so bad.
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Ven » Sun 15 Mar, 2015 12:39 am

your point?

commisar flair can change the tide of an engagement for no effort, same with creeping barrage, call the boyz, touch of nurgle, the list goes on.

it may be 15 seconds, but its a lot of red to use which a lot of the time is better spent on mind blades or a LR.
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Torpid » Sun 15 Mar, 2015 2:28 am

I agree with Ven tbh. I certainly don't think it is anymore OP than swift movement of the WL for example.
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby lolzarz » Sun 15 Mar, 2015 3:39 am

THE EMPEROR'S FINEST SHALL THWART THE FOUL DESIGNS OF XENOS AND HERETICS!

It's fine because having tons of disables is Grey Knights' main strength; army of psykers and all. Notice how none of them do a thing to vehicles? All of the disables in the world won't help if they have no serviceable way to blow up that Predator/Leman Russ/Fire Prism the other side is using.
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Kentation » Sun 15 Mar, 2015 11:19 am

It was planned to be reworked into be a targeted ability rather than affect all enemies. Adjustment to red cost would then be evaluated.

Thread - http://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=821&hilit=dark+excommunication

Some pointed out it disabled repair since it was classified as a ability. I think some of you may be overlooking how some races depend on their abilities. You can't just rely on dps all the time right? I'm sure Forestradio can add to this.

But it was almost a year ago, I guess attitudes have changed or counter play has developed maybe.
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Slaaneshi Cacophony » Sun 15 Mar, 2015 3:05 pm

Ven wrote:your point?

commisar flair can change the tide of an engagement for no effort, same with creeping barrage, call the boyz, touch of nurgle, the list goes on.

it may be 15 seconds, but its a lot of red to use which a lot of the time is better spent on mind blades or a LR.


Abilities like the commissar's flare, creeping barrage and touch of nurgle are situational and actually require effort and skill to be followed up correctly. Do you know what else can also turn the tide of an engagement? Eldritch Storm, but it's completely useless if you've nothing to follow it up with or if you physically fuck up the placement or miss the target/s.

I've seen all of those globals misplaced and have little to no effect, whereas dark excommunication is literally just pushing a button and having a blanket disable on all enemy abilities which can completely fuck over a player's regular commitment to a certain engagement with no warning. Perfect example of this is playing as Chaos. Bloodletters can't phase out or teleport, heretics get stuck in worship and can't turn it off or doomblast, plague champion can't get off a heal or a pestilent strike.

Torpid wrote:I agree with Ven tbh. I certainly don't think it is anymore OP than swift movement of the WL for example.


Swift movement is just a base speed boost for you and your allies and I don't think I've ever used it or had it used against me in such a way that spelled instant retreat or doom for mine or the enemy team. It's mostly just to cap or to move units to an engagement quicker.

lolzarz wrote:THE EMPEROR'S FINEST SHALL THWART THE FOUL DESIGNS OF XENOS AND HERETICS!

It's fine because having tons of disables is Grey Knights' main strength; army of psykers and all. Notice how none of them do a thing to vehicles? All of the disables in the world won't help if they have no serviceable way to blow up that Predator/Leman Russ/Fire Prism the other side is using.


This isn't a discussion about the AV Grey Knights do or don't have.

Kentation wrote:It was planned to be reworked into be a targeted ability rather than affect all enemies. Adjustment to red cost would then be evaluated.

Thread - http://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=821&hilit=dark+excommunication

Some pointed out it disabled repair since it was classified as a ability. I think some of you may be overlooking how some races depend on their abilities. You can't just rely on dps all the time right? I'm sure Forestradio can add to this.

But it was almost a year ago, I guess attitudes have changed or counter play has developed maybe.


I don't think much of anything's changed in relation to this global in terms of player attitude or balance changes in a year. It's a really stupid global and no other race in the game has access to an ability that's even remotely close to how ridiculous it is
Last edited by Slaaneshi Cacophony on Sun 15 Mar, 2015 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Cheah18 » Sun 15 Mar, 2015 3:11 pm

I see his point actually... Would making it work in a limited radius be too much of a nerf?
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby DandyFrontline » Sun 15 Mar, 2015 3:15 pm

Yep, totally agree. DE should have AOE like commissars flare for example.
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby lolzarz » Sun 15 Mar, 2015 4:05 pm

Slaaneshi Cacophony wrote:[
lolzarz wrote:THE EMPEROR'S FINEST SHALL THWART THE FOUL DESIGNS OF XENOS AND HERETICS!

It's fine because having tons of disables is Grey Knights' main strength; army of psykers and all. Notice how none of them do a thing to vehicles? All of the disables in the world won't help if they have no serviceable way to blow up that Predator/Leman Russ/Fire Prism the other side is using.


This isn't a discussion about the AV Grey Knights do or don't have.


It's about the relative strengths and weaknesses of the Grey Knights faction. Complaining that you cannot use abilities against Grey Knights is the same as complaining you cannot defeat the Imperial Guard in a tank battle. You were literally complaining that the one thing the whole faction was designed to do is too strong.
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Slaaneshi Cacophony » Sun 15 Mar, 2015 4:12 pm

lolzarz wrote:
Slaaneshi Cacophony wrote:[
lolzarz wrote:THE EMPEROR'S FINEST SHALL THWART THE FOUL DESIGNS OF XENOS AND HERETICS!

It's fine because having tons of disables is Grey Knights' main strength; army of psykers and all. Notice how none of them do a thing to vehicles? All of the disables in the world won't help if they have no serviceable way to blow up that Predator/Leman Russ/Fire Prism the other side is using.


This isn't a discussion about the AV Grey Knights do or don't have.


It's about the relative strengths and weaknesses of the Grey Knights faction. Complaining that you cannot use abilities against Grey Knights is the same as complaining you cannot defeat the Imperial Guard in a tank battle. You were literally complaining that the one thing the whole faction was designed to do is too strong.


Saying that shutting down abilities is 'the one thing the whole faction was designed to do' is a gross oversimplification and would be if you were talking about any faction. This is a balance discussion. I suppose if we gave the Leman Russ a 50 red ability to one-shot any enemy tank, we wouldn't be allowed to complain either because killing other tanks is what IG do, right? You begin to see how silly your logic is regarding dark excommunication.
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Cheekie Monkie » Sun 15 Mar, 2015 9:53 pm

The problem with turning it into an area wide denial would be twofold:

1) It would be too similar to canticool. Differentiation between globals and unit abilities has historically been a key consideration.

2) It still completely shuts your shit down, so if you all think the current incarnation is OP, this wouldn't solve much. Do I care that those tzeentch CSMs aren't affected by the global? Not really, I'd rather point it to the CL and tic blob anyway. Heretics being able to move out of worship would be a good start.

I also disagree with another point - it's neither easier or harder to use than other globals. Use it too early and your opponent can disengage and wait for it to run out; too late and those nobs would have already popped frenzy.
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Slaaneshi Cacophony » Sun 15 Mar, 2015 10:05 pm

Cheekie Monkie wrote:The problem with turning it into an area wide denial would be twofold:

1) It would be too similar to canticool. Differentiation between globals and unit abilities has historically been a key consideration.

2) It still completely shuts your shit down, so if you all think the current incarnation is OP, this wouldn't solve much. Do I care that those tzeentch CSMs aren't affected by the global? Not really, I'd rather point it to the CL and tic blob anyway. Heretics being able to move out of worship would be a good start.

I also disagree with another point - it's neither easier or harder to use than other globals. Use it too early and your opponent can disengage and wait for it to run out; too late and those nobs would have already popped frenzy.


Yeah, it's good the global is differentiated from standard unit abilities that GKs have already. I was just throwing ideas out there. I still think a blanket shutdown of every ability on the field is ridiculous though. Maybe a different rework would be in order

Enemy units attacked in melee within 15 seconds of casting the ability have their own ability use disabled for 5 seconds or something, and have the timer reset everytime a strike is landed, which could give you another potential 5 seconds if you land a hit during the very last second the ability is active.

Or have abilities shut down within a specific radius of the Brother Captain, a radius that moves and is active continuously with the Brother Captain himself as he moves around.
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Triple d » Sun 15 Mar, 2015 11:02 pm

Slaaneshi Cacophony wrote:
Cheekie Monkie wrote:The problem with turning it into an area wide denial would be twofold:

1) It would be too similar to canticool. Differentiation between globals and unit abilities has historically been a key consideration.

2) It still completely shuts your shit down, so if you all think the current incarnation is OP, this wouldn't solve much. Do I care that those tzeentch CSMs aren't affected by the global? Not really, I'd rather point it to the CL and tic blob anyway. Heretics being able to move out of worship would be a good start.

I also disagree with another point - it's neither easier or harder to use than other globals. Use it too early and your opponent can disengage and wait for it to run out; too late and those nobs would have already popped frenzy.


Yeah, it's good the global is differentiated from standard unit abilities that GKs have already. I was just throwing ideas out there. I still think a blanket shutdown of every ability on the field is ridiculous though. Maybe a different rework would be in order

Enemy units attacked in melee within 15 seconds of casting the ability have their own ability use disabled for 5 seconds or something, and have the timer reset everytime a strike is landed, which could give you another potential 5 seconds if you land a hit during the very last second the ability is active.

Or have abilities shut down within a specific radius of the Brother Captain, a radius that moves and is active continuously with the Brother Captain himself as he moves around.


Well that sound reasonable. however I feEl that still keeps it very similar to canticle. What if instead it enacts a hefty energy drain along the lines of 10or 20 per sec. This would still allow some abilitiyabilities use but if the opponent fails to react in time they will be unable to use any abilities for a while?
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Dark Riku » Sun 15 Mar, 2015 11:22 pm

Just saying, I find it funny that non of you know that the global actually makes heretics go out of worship.
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Torpid » Sun 15 Mar, 2015 11:50 pm

Dark Riku wrote:Just saying, I find it funny that non of you know that the global actually makes heretics go out of worship.


Nobody plays GK. Those who enjoy complaining about them the most tend to not really have played them. I would say I'm the exception to that. I spent a good ~150hours playing GK but I absolutely hate them and whine about them all the time.
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Forestradio » Mon 16 Mar, 2015 12:12 am

Best flesh hook counter in the game after all ;)
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Ven » Mon 16 Mar, 2015 2:19 am

plus if the global becomes a small area, canticle will be even less desirable than it is already.... actually the global would aswell because you would spend red for what i would imagine be basically a bigger canticle without the energy regen.
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Torpid » Mon 16 Mar, 2015 3:14 am

Ven wrote:plus if the global becomes a small area, canticle will be even less desirable than it is already.... actually the global would aswell because you would spend red for what i would imagine be basically a bigger canticle without the energy regen.


Yeah but to be fair it's not that canticle is bad as to why it isn't purchased; rather aegis is just nuts atm and needs a pretty huge nerf.
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Cheekie Monkie » Mon 16 Mar, 2015 8:09 am

Dark Riku wrote:Just saying, I find it funny that non of you know that the global actually makes heretics go out of worship.

Read Slaaneshi's opening statement, assumed it was true :)

To be fair, in the cases where I have noticed tics moving out of worship, I assumed that it was the chaos player deactivating worship on his own volition, rather than him being forced out of it by the ability itself.

By the same logic, does it also cancel repair?
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby HandSome SoddiNg » Mon 16 Mar, 2015 11:02 am

WOW, Another complaint about nerfing GK. Hardcore :x *Facepalm*
DE is not spammable & has a CD of 1 minute,get used to it. Besides u can retreat out of it & waste the global for that engagement.
GK don't need anymore Nerfs ,infact they need the right appropriate buffs
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Atlas » Mon 16 Mar, 2015 5:45 pm

What about Malignant Blindness? Kappa
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Nurland » Mon 16 Mar, 2015 5:52 pm

I think blindness shouldn't affect all enemies. But there is more counterplay imo (farsight, area denial abilities). Blindness is pretty spammable though.
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Kentation » Mon 16 Mar, 2015 6:50 pm

Cheekie Monkie wrote:By the same logic, does it also cancel repair?


lol. I mentioned that it does earlier.

HandSome SoddiNg wrote: DE is not spammable & has a CD of 1 minute,get used to it.


Codex says it has a cooldown of 180 seconds = 3 minutes, unless that is wrong.

HandSome SoddiNg wrote:Besides u can retreat out of it & waste the global for that engagement.


:lol: Where is the counter play in that?

You are overlooking how winning a engagement could mean the difference. Especially in team games. I'd assume, as a commenter on youtube casts (that is you isn't it?) that you would know how important forcing off the opponent is.

Also, I'm genuinely interested in what changed your opinion. You agreed with Raffa, the previous thread poster regarding this subject (albeit not completely). You also seemed fairly contend with Caeltos's vague change proposals on DE. Here is link for reference http://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=821&hilit=dark+excommunication.
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Daddy » Mon 16 Mar, 2015 9:56 pm

I never thought it to be that good. I have got to abuse it more ^_^ as GK
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby HandSome SoddiNg » Tue 17 Mar, 2015 12:30 am

Kentation wrote:
Cheekie Monkie wrote:By the same logic, does it also cancel repair?


lol. I mentioned that it does earlier.

HandSome SoddiNg wrote: DE is not spammable & has a CD of 1 minute,get used to it.


Codex says it has a cooldown of 180 seconds = 3 minutes, unless that is wrong.

HandSome SoddiNg wrote:Besides u can retreat out of it & waste the global for that engagement.


:lol: Where is the counter play in that?

You are overlooking how winning a engagement could mean the difference. Especially in team games. I'd assume, as a commenter on youtube casts (that is you isn't it?) that you would know how important forcing off the opponent is.

Also, I'm genuinely interested in what changed your opinion. You agreed with Raffa, the previous thread poster regarding this subject (albeit not completely). You also seemed fairly contend with Caeltos's vague change proposals on DE. Here is link for reference http://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=821&hilit=dark+excommunication.


Yup seen it ,Oops 15 secs silence + 180 CD seconds, my bet. No ,caster would be Indrid,i'am just a player in those casts time to time. 3 Mins + CD is long enough ,Chaos has bloodlust for CL, you can retreat out & not commit to that . But, Making your opponent waste his global usage & red then losing your entire squadron is worth ditching that engagement smetimes
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Forestradio » Tue 17 Mar, 2015 3:15 am

Torpid wrote:I spent a good ~150hours playing GK but I absolutely hate them and whine about them all the time.


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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Atlas » Tue 17 Mar, 2015 3:55 am

That's what you get for tac spamming :P
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Nurland » Tue 17 Mar, 2015 5:15 am

:P was good use of the global in that game though.
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby HandSome SoddiNg » Tue 17 Mar, 2015 5:35 am

Ironic ,so much undesirable hate for GK considering their only played by a minority & not majority in the community. :( Yet,other races in general are much easier to play then GK. Tsk Tsk,heck even Chaos gives GK a good fight. No need to feel ashamed or frustrated when you lose to a skilful GK player
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Re: Dark Excommunication

Postby Cheekie Monkie » Tue 17 Mar, 2015 9:00 am

Kentation wrote:
Cheekie Monkie wrote:By the same logic, does it also cancel repair?


lol. I mentioned that it does earlier.

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