Faster Capping traits

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Strum
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Faster Capping traits

Postby Strum » Mon 09 Mar, 2015 4:10 am

Why is there only two units in the game with the faster capping trait?

The tactical Marines and the Kasrkin squad (with Sargent) are the only units in the game that I know of with this very useful trait. Why exactly do they have them and why do they come as radically different points in the game?

I am not claiming this is imbalanced I simply don't understand the decision.

Could anyone please shed some light on this for me?
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby Helios » Mon 09 Mar, 2015 4:49 am

It was either a defining trait for SM when the game came out, or a balancing issue. If it was for balance, I can't remember why. Probably because their scouts were too fragile and SM is quality over quantity.

Caeltos gave it to Kasrkins for some reason of which I'm not aware of. You could speculate any number of possibilities (They needed something to make them stand out from ST, he thought it would be neat for them to have it out without it being too op, They're the tankiest non-ogryn unit so it aids them in capturing points.)
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby Nurland » Mon 09 Mar, 2015 9:19 am

Kommando squad has the better capping speed as well. I'd imagine Kasrkin have it to help with map control which is one of the IG weaknesses.

Kommandos probably have it to make them better ninja cappers.
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby realself » Mon 09 Mar, 2015 5:54 pm

Nurland wrote:Kommando squad has the better capping speed as well. I'd imagine Kasrkin have it to help with map control which is one of the IG weaknesses.

Kommandos probably have it to make them better ninja cappers.


Why not make L.A. a ninja capper, too?

Where is all this data on units' capping speeds? The only unit where I saw capping speed explicitly written was for Space Marine tactical squads.

Please put capping speed in the stats sections of the Codex?
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby Nurland » Mon 09 Mar, 2015 7:52 pm

Nids tend to have better map control than orks due to faster units, tunnels etc. LA itself is already insanely powerful as a ninja capper without the faster capping trait
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby Strum » Mon 09 Mar, 2015 10:05 pm

Giving the IG t3 infantry this trait seems a little counter intuitive, while they are quite weak at map control in general this unit only comes out near the end of the game and delays the deployment of the factions most powerful units.

The tactical marines having this ability seems to me to be a vestigial hold over from vanilla, and make it the only unit prior to t3 that have it. I think the trait should be examined and compared to the units role to see if any changes need to be made. I do not play space marines so I have no idea how big of a change this would really be.

Thank you for sharing that Kommandos also have this trait I did not know that.

Thoughts on the matter anyone?
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby Nurland » Tue 10 Mar, 2015 7:36 am

I honestly don't see a problem with Tacs having a faster capping speed.
The reason other faster capping trait squads are T3 is most likely not because the faster capping speed is a T3 level ability but to give some extra appeal for these squads.
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby enasni127 » Tue 10 Mar, 2015 7:57 am

Nurland wrote:I honestly don't see a problem with Tacs having a faster capping speed.
The reason other faster capping trait squads are T3 is most likely not because the faster capping speed is a T3 level ability but to give some extra appeal for these squads.


maybe they should give that trait to guardsmen, too. That could help IG's T1 alot and maybe solve a bit of the capping problem caused by the sentinel not being able to cap and needing repair support by GM
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby lolzarz » Tue 10 Mar, 2015 8:09 am

Strum wrote:Giving the IG t3 infantry this trait seems a little counter intuitive, while they are quite weak at map control in general this unit only comes out near the end of the game and delays the deployment of the factions most powerful units.

The tactical marines having this ability seems to me to be a vestigial hold over from vanilla, and make it the only unit prior to t3 that have it. I think the trait should be examined and compared to the units role to see if any changes need to be made. I do not play space marines so I have no idea how big of a change this would really be.

Thank you for sharing that Kommandos also have this trait I did not know that.

Thoughts on the matter anyone?


Kasrkin only get it with their sergeant. While their sergeant is miraculously the equal of a tactical space marine sergeant in melee combat, it wouldn't be worth it if all he did was give melee capabilities to a ranged squad and double the time before you get suppressed. It helps them cap while under fire, which is just as well because your other infantry units should either be in short range/melee of enemy units (catachans, ogryns, stormtroopers) or should be behind the lines (heavy weapons team, spotters). That leaves the only alternative as guardsmen, who have the inconvenient trait of dying like little bitches within seconds of enemy units opening fire. Unless you plan to cap after you've destroyed the enemy, but that may not be an option in a close game or when your kasrkin are not part of your main army.
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby BaptismByLoli » Tue 10 Mar, 2015 8:53 am

enasni127 wrote:maybe they should give that trait to guardsmen, too. That could help IG's T1 alot and maybe solve a bit of the capping problem caused by the sentinel not being able to cap and needing repair support by GM


IGs have the best vehicle in the game and their Guardsmen repair vehicles faster cause of an improved repair rate IIRC. Sentinels are already a strong asset with their mobility + Uncapping trait along with a lack of bleed.
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby Ven » Tue 10 Mar, 2015 3:00 pm

i always thought tacs had this trait due to SM usually being the race to not have a 3rd squad with their out of the gate resources, and the 50%+ helping with map control even though you only have 3 units at the start (usually) compared to all the other races having 4 units at the start (usually)

you might say that GK and csm have this issue of only 3 units out the gate aswell, but CSM now can just buy a tic squad instantly after their CSM squad purchase, and GK get a rhino in T1 to help with map control.
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby Strum » Tue 10 Mar, 2015 7:53 pm

enasni127 wrote:
Nurland wrote:I honestly don't see a problem with Tacs having a faster capping speed.
The reason other faster capping trait squads are T3 is most likely not because the faster capping speed is a T3 level ability but to give some extra appeal for these squads.


maybe they should give that trait to guardsmen, too. That could help IG's T1 alot and maybe solve a bit of the capping problem caused by the sentinel not being able to cap and needing repair support by GM



I doubt this would really help with the IG's map control issue. The problem is that they cannot separate and be effective in combat. Reducing capping time would be a step in the right direction but I honestly think the IG needs an overhaul as opposed to minor tweaking if they are ever to be a competitive faction.
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby Torpid » Tue 10 Mar, 2015 7:55 pm

Strum wrote:I doubt this would really help with the IG's map control issue. The problem is that they cannot separate and be effective in combat. Reducing capping time would be a step in the right direction but I honestly think the IG needs an overhaul as opposed to minor tweaking if they are ever to be a competitive faction.


Are you really ignorant or selectively blind? Do you not recall that Noisy won the last MRT with his IQ? IG are amply competitive atm. Have been ever since the big guardsmen buff. They need some weakness ffs. They'de so bat-shit OP if GM capped 50% faster it would be insane.
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby Cheekie Monkie » Tue 10 Mar, 2015 8:10 pm

Man I really need to watch MRT more.
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 11 Mar, 2015 12:56 am

Torpid wrote:Are you really ignorant or selectively blind? Do you not recall that Noisy won the last MRT with his IQ? IG are amply competitive atm. Have been ever since the big guardsmen buff. They need some weakness ffs. They'de so bat-shit OP if GM capped 50% faster it would be insane.
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby Ven » Wed 11 Mar, 2015 1:38 am

in agreement with torpid here. while map control is a problem for IG, i dont think its a problem that needs fixing.

it could perhaps be improved upon but not "fixed", if you've seen caeltos's proposal of whiteshields i think thats sort of a step in the right direction in a way.

then again, noisy is noisy, wouldn't be suprised if he told me he changes his name to holyhammer in the MRTs, basically noisy is the bruce wane and holyhammer is the batman kinda thing.... ok this is getting weird, im going to stop now.
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby MaxPower » Wed 11 Mar, 2015 6:47 am

Ven wrote:[..] noisy is the bruce wane and holyhammer is the batman kinda thing.... ok this is getting weird, im going to stop now.


I guess everything is fine, if only you could tell us who this mysterious Bruce Wane is supposed to be?
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby Ven » Wed 11 Mar, 2015 2:23 pm

MaxPower wrote:
Ven wrote:[..] noisy is the bruce wane and holyhammer is the batman kinda thing.... ok this is getting weird, im going to stop now.


I guess everything is fine, if only you could tell us who this mysterious Bruce Wane is supposed to be?


he's Bruce Waynes retarded cousin.
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby egewithin » Wed 11 Mar, 2015 3:01 pm

Actually IG don't have any problem with map control. If you spread your units enough, you will have enough map control. You know, GM has nearly same speed with tics or sluggaz.
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby Nurland » Wed 11 Mar, 2015 5:29 pm

They have the same speed. Which is 5. GM generally need to repair the Sent(s) alot in T1 even between engagements. That hurts their map control. On the other hand getting the map back from IG is pretty hard and their T1 bleed tends to be quite small. Those things even out the lack of map control by quite a bit.
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby Cheah18 » Wed 11 Mar, 2015 5:38 pm

firatwithin wrote:Actually IG don't have any problem with map control.


Wut...

I will say clearly here: IG's main problem in map control is the need for all units in engagements. Every IG unit is terrible when used alone (except maybe catas, but 300/30 + upgrade is not ideal to just cap with, and you usually need them to support your army). Other races have cap units to spare, and tics/sluggas will chase off any gm unit that they find. The GM alone is probably the least useful unit in the whole game. Also, as Nurland said, the sentinel requires repairing in between engagements so map control can be hard to fight for as time is short.
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 11 Mar, 2015 6:46 pm

Let me clearly say: "No."
Every race needs all their units in the engagement versus another full army.
Unupgraded scouts on their own are definitely worse than GM in combat.
Nurland also said some other things .... you want the full picture, not just the part you want to see.
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby Toilailee » Wed 11 Mar, 2015 8:55 pm

Cheah18 wrote:I will say clearly here: IG's main problem in map control is the need for all units in engagements. Every IG unit is terrible when used alone (except maybe catas, but 300/30 + upgrade is not ideal to just cap with, and you usually need them to support your army). Other races have cap units to spare, and tics/sluggas will chase off any gm unit that they find. The GM alone is probably the least useful unit in the whole game. Also, as Nurland said, the sentinel requires repairing in between engagements so map control can be hard to fight for as time is short.


This.

IG definitely have a problem with map control HOWERVER it is not a problem that needs any major fixing since that is how ig were designed and balanced around in dow2. IG relies more on denying enemy map control than constantly running around capping stuff for map control, especially in the early game sentinels cannot cap and gm spend a lot of time fixing them and that leaves very little time for capping. This by definition means that ig has to win more than 50% of engagements in 1v1 to maintain even map control.

Honestly tho ig seem to be designed with the idea that every1 would get catas 100% time since they are the only unit in ig roster that is suited for capping/splitting.








ps. Isn't it about time you stop being so biased and overly rude in balance threads riku....
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby Torpid » Wed 11 Mar, 2015 9:53 pm

Toilailee wrote:-


Yes, but recall that IG don't really bleed in T1 whereas the race they are fighting probably will if the IG is doing a decent job. For that reason IG can end up well behind on the map control but still be the same as far as miltary and eco goes.
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby enasni127 » Thu 12 Mar, 2015 7:51 am

Torpid wrote:
Strum wrote:I doubt this would really help with the IG's map control issue. The problem is that they cannot separate and be effective in combat. Reducing capping time would be a step in the right direction but I honestly think the IG needs an overhaul as opposed to minor tweaking if they are ever to be a competitive faction.


Are you really ignorant or selectively blind? Do you not recall that Noisy won the last MRT with his IQ? IG are amply competitive atm. Have been ever since the big guardsmen buff. They need some weakness ffs. They'de so bat-shit OP if GM capped 50% faster it would be insane.


Very polite answer.

Is there any chance to watch these games or was it just a stream? i mean, ist there maybe a youtube channel or uploaded replays on gamereplays.org etc?
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby Sturnn » Thu 12 Mar, 2015 9:06 am

You can find some replays in topic regarding MRT.
Well, I would say that till some level of skill people should more take into consideration their all faults rather than OP/UP in each race.
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby Toilailee » Thu 12 Mar, 2015 1:54 pm

enasni127 wrote:Is there any chance to watch these games or was it just a stream? i mean, ist there maybe a youtube channel or uploaded replays on gamereplays.org etc?


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1520

There's mine.

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... w=upcoming

Pega's and some1 else's at least?

http://www.twitch.tv/megametzelfleische ... broadcasts
http://www.twitch.tv/atlastheinquiring/ ... broadcasts

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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby Cheah18 » Fri 13 Mar, 2015 11:51 am

@RIku Will attack your response on another point. I didn't say once that the engagement involved the entire enemy army. You said all races need every unit vs a full army. While I don't actually believe this is true as has been discussed on a thread in the past, even conceding that it is doesn't make what I said incorrect because I wasn't concerning full armies.

If you encounter Tacs, you need your gm and sent at a bare minimum to even compete; they will own either on their own. If you encounter Tacs and devs, you need your gm, sent, probably your hero. If you find Tacs ASM and Devs (which is pretty close to, but not quite, a full army), it is likely you will need everything including your tier 1.5 unit e.g. catas. The SM player competes without his scouts, and they go cap the map. Similarly, something like 2x shoota+loota+hero can do the same without the sluggas. Obviously this is simplistic but yeah...

As IG, If you don't use all your units in an engagement, you are extremely likely to lose in one area be it map control or bleed or gens or whatever. IG has to coordinate everything they have to counter the formations listed above. A GM capping unit for instance can't control enough map to make up for these losses. Its only feasible if you go massive tier 1 with like 3 gm but this isn't always viable.

And on the scout thing, I said GM alone are less USEFUL, not less damaging.
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Re: Faster Capping traits

Postby PhatE » Sat 14 Mar, 2015 6:15 am

This has been a real treat to read! :)

If this keeps going on it will make my Monday mornings all the better
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