Proposed Balance Changes

[Torpid]

Chaos:

Buff default chaos dread's autocannon's default dps but not its splash - Chaos has problems dealing with single entities. Always did. The chaos dreadnought in its default form is a bit lacking. Its splash was always solid but its actual chance of bleeding HI models was terrible and a further result of that was that it was never that great at dealing with single entities either. I think an appropriate buff would be to reduce its single target dps by about 40% but not increase its splash.

Remove melee resist on havocs - We've gone through this a few times. It just isn't needed. Chaos get heretics which are brutally oppressive to any melee unit that tries to kill havocs on retreat. The havoc-tic synergy was always what made the havoc so attractive for chaos players. Second after that was its ability to deal with tanky melee heroes and third and finally its instant suppression (which it has now lost), but it is still too powerful to justify giving them melee resistance. This change has made havocs very clearly OP since ASM cannot possibly force them off now even if they jump them twice. Orks on the other hand have it much worse as stormboyz are very lacking vs havocs yet we all know how risky it is to jump storms into heretics...

Nerf "slaughter"'s melee damage increase or making it harder to activate as an ability by making it need to be charged - This is just outright dumb at the moment. Sorry but the stats are way off. 2csm with slaughter wipe the floor with banshees now after a few pops on the way in and then a swap to melee and this is not justified. Banshees bleed models sitting back waiting for the opportunity to be able to fleet into the 2csm and scream at them. It's too powerful a tool for the CSM to be allowed to fall back upon. It counters their counters and it also counters the counters to set-up teams as two slaughter melee csm and heretics will annihilate nearly all jump squads. Add in the melee resist of havocs and the general ranged superiority of chaos and yes you have a recipe for disaster. Make the dps increase much lower such as 27 instead of 35, remove the HP regen when in melee or make the ability harder to activate in the first place by making it be charged through killing or something similar.

[Torpid]

Eldar:

Reduce damage but increase ROF of d-cannon - There was a thread about this before. The crux of the problem was that the D-cannons ability to snipe-wipe stuff was a big deal and was frankly OP. It was not a problem unique to any game-mode and the d cannon had singularity and the inability to miss vs vehicles going for it which justifies its high cost and being in t3 anyway. The insta-wiping was just too much. The ROF increase, damage decrease makes it harder for the D-cannon to wipe a squad since they won't die in one hit and so you should be able to notice their health drop and have a few seconds to get out of there. Meanwhile, if you try to assault them head on their dps will not be lower so you will utterly fail nonetheless.

Change the MWB special attack from power melee to ordinary melee damage - oddly effective vs vehicles, especially since the special hits twice, more importantly however is that it gives the weapon too much scaling vs HI come T2 and frankly for a T1 weapon with as much utility as it already gets it seems very unnecessary for the special to be power melee, especially when the weapon itself is only ordinary melee.

Buff the cloak of shadows so that it grants an additional 30 energy from 20 energy as well as an additional 1e/s - This gives it a good reason to be bought outside of very niche, banshee-warlock infiltration synergy scenarios. While, it is a very good wargear holistically the main problem with it at the moment is simply that the WL is too energy intensive as it is to want another energy costing ability. The alternative would be to make the cloaking shroud ability cost less energy but this would be inferior as it would not help with the problem of not having enough energy for immolate+destructor+warp throw+fleet of foot anyway.

Wraithlord should have no default hp regeneration and should not be affected by the warlock's webway gate heal - I'm not sure if this has been changed already, if not it should be as it is just an unfair advantage that the WL has for apparently no reason.

Energy regen from the WSE's webway gate ability should be ~3e/s instead of 1 - It's just a bit pathetic now. Doesn't make much of a difference except with warp spiders.

Shimmer orb duration reduction to 15seconds from 30seconds - Not reduce its overall utility but make it less effective at simply capping points under lots of artillery. This will not nerf its effectiveness in 1v1 much, where it is balanced anyway, but it will nerf it quite a lot in 3v3 where it overperforms.

Make destructor scale with levels however reduce its initial damage from 54 damage to 42 damage - Destructor atm is at an awkward scenario now in that in certain MUs it under-performs such as vs SM, or orks, but vs other races like chaos, ig and nids it overperforms. To balance the ability out as a whole and not allow to screw over particular MUs so much I think this would be a good change.

Reduce accuracy on the wraithlord brightlance while FOTM to 75% - Despite the recent raise in costt for the wraithlord it is still way overperforming vs tanks and light T1 vehicles. When you consider the other walkers none of them have no chance kiling an enemy vehicle without forgoing their melee prowess - Tdread and melta dread - but even in those last examples they lose accuracy by 50% when FOTM. The BL WL is still the best tank hunter and transport hunter and BC crusher even though it is much better than the Tdread/melta dread at dealing with heavy melee squads and other walkers in melee. It's compositionally too strong the way it makes transport plays near redundant in and of itself while still being amazing at counter-initiation since it retains its splash and being able to solo any other T2 walker in melee.

[Torpid]

Space Marines:

Reduce the HP/armour type of the relay beacon such that it is easier to destroy with piercing weapons -It is too durable at the moment. It makes it too difficult to defeat head-on and is extremely problematic in team games. It is still potent in 1v1 on particular maps but because of the lack of doubles and the bigger maps it's quite a bit harder to destroy a beacon there anyway if placed properly.

[Torpid]

Imperial Guard:

Increase the damage of the incendiary shell when buying the T3 "heavy mortar shells" upgrade from 20 damage +7DOT
for 20seconds to 25damage+10DOT for 20seconds - This would encourage more incendiary shell usage which right now in the late game is just bad since its damage cannot live up to the dps you get to inflict on a foe by knocking them out of the cover and towards you with the mortar shell.

Nerf assail so it is channeled or has shorter range - It is too powerful considering the cost of the wargear and the composition of the army it belongs to. Making a squad unable to jump when IG have such amazing ranged damage and the best set-up teams in T2 (since you can't pwn them as easily with artillery as other races) for 140/20 is way too good, nevermind the fact that it gives the IQ another 100hp. It's just a fire and forget method of completely taking a squad out of play that itself has no counter-play, it's like menacing visage in so many ways - once immobilised IG has no trouble annihilating any squad with ranged fire or even sentinel missles or manticore shots which they now can't evade. Nerf it somehow, precisely how doesn't matter, but it needs a serious nerf.

[Torpid]

Tyranids:

Increase the energy cost of the lictor alphas leap to 50 from 20 - This ability is absolutely amazing. You're getting a jump squad for a hero, a hero that can deal with suppression through infiltration and flesh hooks too as well as dropping spore mines anywhere in LoS courtesy of his global. Bearing in mind that tyranids main counter in T1 is suppression, the compositionally power of this wargear is unbelievable. It is just completely unjust that the leap itself costs so little energy. The lictor should be made to save energy for the leap or to use his energy on infiltration. This change would also serve as a greater incentive to go for the adrenal glands which do give the energy buff that allows him to wander about nearly constantly infiltrated when out of base.

[Torpid]

Orks:

[Torpid]

Grey Knights:

Remove the SHI from the GK rhino, revert it back to HI. Make the vehicle armour upgrade grant additional capacity
and reduce its purchase time to 15seconds - Many discussions have already been had about this. Forestradio could probably elaborate more on this but basically it was fine before with HI, it did the job. Vehicle armour was always a bit redundant, one of the problems of the rhino was the need to upgrade it to vehicle armour and a weapon come T2 meant that you couldn't really rush the foe with a HB rhino as by the time it was out and doubly upgraded they had AV... Reducing the vehicle armour upgrade time is important for this reason. Granting additional capacity is a nice further incentive to its use in T2 and won't be too OP in T1 where you are carrying around triple IST and having mad levels of burst damage.

Make the GK rhino's lascannon cost 20 power - It is pretty much straight up better than the HB now. Sure it isn't quite as good against infantry but it is better vs everything else - turrets, vehicles, gens and so on plus it gets 100% fotm which the HB lacks and ultimately the rhino will move about a damn lot.

Increase the cost of the "blessed aegis" of the brother captain to 25 power - this is just way too strong right now. It's nearly always a no-brainer. It makes the BC able to counter set-up teams with ease and for 20 power the increase in staying power it offers the BC is hard to turn up. It overshadows the unending purge entirely in T1 and is only worse than said wargear if you really want canticle to negate enemy abilities or for GKI synergy. It's too cost-effective right now in T1, akin to the old spiky armour of the WB.

Lower the health bonus from the canticle of absolution to 100 from 200 and instead cause it grant an additional 30 energy on top of its 1.5e/s regen bonus - The BC is hugely energy intensive and right now getting canticle often means you simply cannot get the warding staff/daemon hammer, or if so you must not get a energy intensive accessory. This is at odds with what the wargear does though. Canticle-BC is more supportive and less of a line breaker and this is why it should give more energy and less health. The canticle BC should be the one supporting his allies from the backline with warding staff buffs, with psychic lash, with canticle. If he wants to charge in under the health buff then that's what the classic halberd/aegis/teleporter combo is for.

Reduce the energy cost of psychic lash to 35 energy from 50 and reduce its casting-animation-time by roughly 50% - Again, the BC is a very energy intensive hero. This ability costs a heck of a lot to buy (35 power), this is justifiable since it is a T2 flesh hook but its alternative is the teleport pack on a very high damage, very tanky melee hero. It needs to be functional and right now it just isn't. With a faster animation speed and lower energy though I think it would be a fantastic wargear that would help GK in a lot of tough MUs such as vs tanky melee heroes, orks and nids.

Add a 1e/s regen bonus to the "nemesis vortex" armour - Again, there's very little incentive to get this armour when it just adds another energy intensive ability for the BC who already has more than enough of them to go around. If it is to be attractive and properly functional it needs to grant some sort of energy buff.

Reduce the cost of interceptors to 450 req from 500 - No justification anymore for the 500 req. Yes they do good damage but really the lack of the a knockback combined with the delayed teleport makes them a very inferior choice to any alternatives GK can get in T1 and frankly just makes them worse than raptors/ASM despite them costing more. Interceptors need a little love, this is how to give it to them.

[Torpid]

I'm done for now

Feedback?

[karnakkardak]

something say with Ig:
mortar team is a enough now. And i think one of ig's weakness a lack of counter HI synergy power. So i recommend mortar fire get additinal damage heavy infantry.

Assail is very good and inquisitor's core item. But u know this- elite mod ig's real weakness counter melee, air-assult squad, tier 3 SHI (terminator) and other tier 3 walker,relic unit. in this mean, inquisitor's merit is anti/safeguard from melee attack so cosider seriously berf or nerf this skill.

and ogryn need some berf anything. Don't u? tier 2 SHI maybe good, but they cannot break suppression themselves, their melee dmg so low (only 30!) Too weak crowd control.
I think it will be good one more member their squad.

[Ven]

....

what are you saying? IG has the best anti-melee in T1 and they can deal with HI just fine, especially come T2.

[Forestradio]

Forestradio could probably elaborate more on this

You wanted a wall of text? Then it shall be yours…..

I did find the rhino to be very potent in its Heavy Infantry form. I found it useful both as part of a short t1, a long t1, and as a quick t2 purchase. In t1, the rhino was defensive against most races. It stood a bit back from your SS/BC, ready to quickly back up in case of ensuing melee flanks/big pushes. 25 dps doesn’t sound like a lot, but it consistently kills models on every non-HI squad and the damage really adds up on HI squads as well, since the rhino continuously fires no matter what (unless it’s facing the wrong way). The rhino certainly wasn’t the best choice to be made in every situation (for example, against Feeder Tendrils LA) but it’s potential was only limited by the imagination of the user, and I purchased it in t1 and t2 very frequently. If you made a mistake with your rhino, then it died, but that is no different from every other vehicle in the entire game. (Not claiming here that I don’t make mistakes with my rhino, I had games where it died in the second engagement I used it due to pathing or lag or my own shitty micro, but I wouldn’t want the balance of this mod to cater to my bad plays). I also had quite a few games (in 1v1 and 2v2 and 3v3) where I kept my rhino alive deep into t3, with ranged blobs of doom and vehicle snares all over the place, even against players who are quite a bit better than me: Noisy and Dark Riku come to mind.

At the moment, the rhino is also doubling as an offensive vehicle in t1. This really shouldn’t ever be its role: it’s completely pushed out interceptors at linebreaking. It absorbs enough damage that it can actively harass and chase as well as perform extremely well defensively. It can still die from melee flanks (once again, the balance of this mod shouldn’t cater to someone making a mistake that allowing that kind of flank) but its performance against every single race in the game is quite frankly OTT.

Make the vehicle armour upgrade grant additional capacity and reduce its purchase time to 15seconds

Yes

Make the GK rhino's lascannon cost 20 power

Yes

Increase the cost of the "blessed aegis" of the brother captain to 25 power

Yes

Lower the health bonus from the canticle of absolution to 100 from 200 and instead cause it grant an additional 30 energy on top of its 1.5e/s regen bonus
Reduce the energy cost of psychic lash to 35 energy from 50 and reduce its casting-animation-time by roughly 50%
Add a 1e/s regen bonus to the "nemesis vortex" armour

We talked about this on Steam: I don't feel any buff to the BC's energy pool or regen is necessary because of how good Strike Squads already are at restoring energy. As for the Psychic Lash, I don't find it to be underperforming, it's pretty much balanced, a word lost in the total bullshit that flesh hook currently is.

[Cheekie Monkie]

Rhino
Can we get some sort of upgrade indication for when you upgrade the rhino to vehicle armour please? I rage when I try to shoot/chase/beat it, then find out that my small arms and chainswords aren't doing anything to it (thanks, Forest).

Can we also add and attack move for the default rhino? Some would say attack moving is bad practice, but it's a crucial ability to ensure that you're shooting stuff at max range.

GK Flesh Hook
I agree with Forest here, we need LESS fleshook like abilities in the game, not more of it. It's another one of those 'anti fun' abilities in the game. I'd rather see it redesigned entirely.

[egewithin]

Wait a sec! Wraithlord can benefit from the healing aura of the Webway Gates? Wait for me MP, I'm comin for you tonight! Ahahahhaaaa!!....

Also, you can make MWB normal melee, I still does nice damage but then please decrease its cost.

And come on! Nobody thinks that the lascannon of Rhino is unfair for vehicles? It's a mini Predator guys! See the last 1v1 on Indrid? It just killed a Blood Chruser because it is faster than the BC and BC can never cath him! So he keeps its distance, hit and run tactic then boom! There it goes.

[Torpid]

Lower the health bonus from the canticle of absolution to 100 from 200 and instead cause it grant an additional 30 energy on top of its 1.5e/s regen bonus
Reduce the energy cost of psychic lash to 35 energy from 50 and reduce its casting-animation-time by roughly 50%
Add a 1e/s regen bonus to the "nemesis vortex" armour

We talked about this on Steam: I don't feel any buff to the BC's energy pool or regen is necessary because of how good Strike Squads already are at restoring energy. As for the Psychic Lash, I don't find it to be underperforming, it's pretty much balanced, a word lost in the total bullshit that flesh hook currently is.

You said yourself that you would rarely ever get nemmy vortex or canticle even after the price increase change on aegis. This makes it clear to me that they're UP. Even when you consider the purification of SS and purifiers the BC is energy itensive. WATH - 50 energy, demolishing strike/ward - 50/45, lash/teleport - 50, canticle/vortex - 40/60. Basically you have absolutely no hope of being able to use all when you want as you'de need a total of 190 banked energy. Nothing buffs the BCs base energy now so even if you use the damn SS/purifiers energy boost you still will be lacking. They should give regen if not a straight up boost to base energy. Even without those armours you are still encouraged to use the SS boosts as he requires 150 energy for WATH/ward or demolishing strike/teleport or lash, so if yo want to use them alongside aegis you need to use energy boosts. It's not like canticle/vortex solve the energy problems themselves as by getting them you now have another energy intensive ability to use so you will need to use SS/purifier energy boosts.

[Torpid]

Regarding the psychic lash I don't why you guys are so bothered about it. Yes it's like flesh hook - except it has a slower animation, is T2, isn't on a race where their only counter is something which flesh hook counters, it costs 35 power and it takes up an accessory slot which otherwise has your tanky melee hero be even more tanky or be able to teleport. It's the fact that flesh hook is none of that that makes flesh hook OP. I think the "flesh hook OP" notion has gone to your heads. Do yo think flesh hook on T3 lictors is OP? It bloody well isn't. You mean compared to time field and similar abilities? Lol.

It's totally fine as a flesh-hook-ability, what's wrong with it? The fact that there's no counter-play? Well there's no counter-play to the techmarine's high powered shot, to the warlock's destructor, to the farseer's mind war, to the apo heals or full-auto, the battlecry with the TH and teleport etc etc.

Psychic lash being buffed as I proposed would help GK a lot in many of the MUs where they struggle atm such as all the nid MUs and all the ork MUs. It wouldn't be much use in other MUs because you don't need it there as GK anyway - you want the teleporter pack most of the time anyway.

[Cheekie Monkie]

The fact that the lash is in T2 isn't that much of a problem, since it gains so much potential at that time. Suddenly you've got the ability to KO high value single targets reliably (i.e. at a time when squad leaders are starting to show their faces), making it perfect for counter initiation and sniping at a time when the GK T2 paintrain starts rolling. All you need to do is to snipe a single squad leader and hey ho, you're already starting to pay off that 35 power investment.

Anyway, the crux of my argument wasn't a point of balance. At the moment the BC spends so much time dicking around that targets have a tendency of falling out of range by the time it's finished casting anyway, so your suggestion is certainly valid. However, my point was that flesh hook like abilities are absolutely infuriating to play against. At least high powered shot isn't as likely to delete a squad leader.

[Cheah18]

get SHI rhino the **** out this game

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

TBH I was really surprised with the inclusion of Slaughter on AC CSM.

Long time ago I suggested to give something to the AC CSM to take advantage of their default high melee DPS, and the result was an Charge ability (with lots of conditions, high CD and energy cost) and a passive melee charge. The opinion of almost the entire forum was that it was OP as fuck.

And then Slaughter was included. An ability which turn EW AC CSM into MOK CSM without power_melee or increase their ranged dps, with a relatively low CD and no conditions at all. An ability which counters the EW AC CSM counters and almost an engagement winner.

Mi no comprender.

[Torpid]

TBH I was really surprised with the inclusion of Slaughter on AC CSM.

Long time ago I suggested to give something to the AC CSM to take advantage of their default high melee DPS, and the result was an Charge ability (with lots of conditions, high CD and energy cost) and a passive melee charge. The opinion of almost the entire forum was that it was OP as fuck.

And then Slaughter was included. An ability which turn EW AC CSM into MOK CSM without power_melee or increase their ranged dps, with a relatively low CD and no conditions at all. An ability which counters the EW AC CSM counters and almost an engagement winner.

Mi no comprender.

MOK do 30PM, slaughter csm do 35M. They're mental, especially vs storms/shees which as you say are meant to be their main counters. Add in the melee resistance on the havocs too and what's the freaking point getting jump squads vs chaos now? They don't even need a BL, a BC or a khorne dread to slaughter your jump squads. Snipers got a big offensive nerf too so you can't really use them very well vs havocs either. It just all adds up to make chaos way stronger for no reason at all when they were practically perfectly balanced before minus the default chaos dread being a bit too weak.

[Daddy]

I really don't get what the big hub-bub is about melee resist havocs.

They already lost their insta suppress. They don't need to loose melee resist and practically become the worst set-up team by far.

Set up teams SHOULD be supported. Just because heretics synergize with havocs means nothing. All it shows is that the player is smart enough to support his set-up teams.

Banshees support shurikens, and sluggas support lootas. Sometimes even better because they have power melee and tear through ASM and Raptors.

Yeah I get Havocs are a pain in T1. But it is unlikely that a player will always keep heretics by the havocs and forego capping etc. Just like I dont keep my heretics around my PC turret.

After all, the melee resist starts to loose its effectiveness by tier 2.

I remember how easy it was to take down havocs before the melee resist changes and it was brutal.

All it means is that the havocs now have staying power. I think any good player can work around that, you don't have to wipe them, just force them off.

[Ven]

I really don't get what the big hub-bub is about melee resist havocs.

They already lost their insta suppress. They don't need to loose melee resist and practically become the worst set-up team by far.

Set up teams SHOULD be supported. Just because heretics synergize with havocs means nothing. All it shows is that the player is smart enough to support his set-up teams.

Banshees support shurikens, and sluggas support lootas. Sometimes even better because they have power melee and tear through ASM and Raptors.

Yeah I get Havocs are a pain in T1. But it is unlikely that a player will always keep heretics by the havocs and forego capping etc. Just like I dont keep my heretics around my PC turret.

After all, the melee resist starts to loose its effectiveness by tier 2.

I remember how easy it was to take down havocs before the melee resist changes and it was brutal.

All it means is that the havocs now have staying power. I think any good player can work around that, you don't have to wipe them, just force them off.

really? really.

havocs and devs are the only setup teams in the game that have melee resist so you're saying the other setup teams in the game are bad?

also i'd like to point out that havocs were easy to keep in the field if jumped by ASM for example even before the patch. now its practically impossible to force them off with jump units. this gives armies like SM, orks, chaos and GK a dissadvantage vs them where as the artillery spotters for IG dont even slightly have to worry about the melee resist. thats not a balancing factor.

i believe that riku made a post ages ago about how devs and havocs were actually worse than other setup teams due to more damage types doing extra damage to HI etc. while the melee resist did help somewhat, i think a simple health increase would of been so much better. the melee resist is just OP.

[Dark Riku]

I don't see Chaos having problems with single entities, especially not when compared to SM for instance.
Havocs still almost instantly suppress, everyone really has to pay some more attention in game. The trait is still there.
Slaughter needs a nerf.

Reducing the damage but buffing the RoF on the d-cannon introduces another number of problems that was also discussed in the thread. I much more preferred an other idea: some damage still instantly, the rest of the damage done by an AoE where the shot landed.
MCWB could use that change and maybe some more changes.
The wraithlord's brightlance could use a nerf.

Assail could use a nerf.

They already lost their insta suppress.

They still have their very fast suppression trait!

They don't need to loose melee resist and practically become the worst set-up team by far.

How can you even say such a thing?! Look up the numbers first! Look up how high their lascannon DPS is for example! Havocs are great, the melee resistance only makes them over perform in many situations.

[Daddy]

The main issue here is that this thread suggests Havocs lose their melee resist while implying that SM devastators retain theirs. To me, that's just absurd.

But I will cool my jets and let it be. I honestly have not noticed melee resist being an issue with my havocs.
They really are not that hard to counter.

[Flo]

The main issue here is that this thread suggests Havocs lose their melee resist while implying that SM devastators retain theirs. To me, that's just absurd.

tics tend to fare a bit better at swarming and forcing off jump troops than shotgun scouts...

[Ven]

The main issue here is that this thread suggests Havocs lose their melee resist while implying that SM devastators retain theirs. To me, that's just absurd.

But I will cool my jets and let it be. I honestly have not noticed melee resist being an issue with my havocs.
They really are not that hard to counter.

heretics can doomblast and do massive damage to the jump squad, WHILE path blocking them, WHILE suppressing them. in that time the havocs can back off and reset up, this is even easier to do now with melee resist.

Devs on the other hand only really have shotgun scouts to counter-initiate jump squads. and guess what? jump squads are immune to knockback for 5~ ish seconds after landing. what does the shotgun blast do? knockback.

you see what's wrong now?

[Torpid]

Not to mention the shotgun scouts do less damage than heretics, especially to ASM/ratpros due to their HI while themselves costed way more than heretics. The synergy is just not the same.

Add to this the fact that csm find ranged dps quite a bit easier to come across otherwise - noise marines, 2 csm being more viable, their heroes even via combi bolter, pc bolter and doombolts.

Havocs are in a very very very different situation than SM devs and they're blatantly OP right now. Blatantly. I would go as to far to say you don't how to use havocs properly if you think otherwise. ASM cannot possibly force them off now unless they are, for no justifiable reason, susceptible to an ASM jump all on their own with no support for a good 6 or so seconds. Ridiculous.

[Daddy]

See that's the problem here, this whole balance change is based on ASM countering Havocs in 1 particular instance instance/match-up in tier 1.

Handicapping havocs just for this purpose is not the way to go. As it affects havocs in all matchups and leaves them FAR more handicapped comparatively to all other set-up teams.

[Torpid]

See that's the problem here, this whole balance change is based on ASM countering Havocs in 1 particular instance instance/match-up in tier 1.

Handicapping havocs just for this purpose is not the way to go. As it affects havocs in all matchups and leaves them FAR more handicapped competitively to all other set-up teams.

What on Earth are you talking about? It's nothing to do with ASM specifically. ASM are the best havoc counter in T1 in the game and now even they suck at it.

IG now are forced to get spotters vs chaos since their heroes do nowhere near enough damage in melee to them.

Other chaos can't realistically use raptors as they get slaughtered by heretics without forcing off the havocs.

Orks cannot use stormboyz which breaks the entire MU because like Riku said even though thye no longer suppress totally instantly they still suppress very fast. Stormboyz just get annihilated by tics cost to cost and they really can't force off the havocs of a player with even average reaction speeds.

Eldar have to try and deal with havocs using their shitty nerfed rangers and the hope of actually killing the havocs if they somehow manage to get behind them with their shees is small, which it should not be.

Raveners are now even more useless than they already were vs chaos due to the change...

The comparison between scouts and heretics was to justify removing the melee resistance from havocs but not from SM devs...

[Torpid]

I don't see Chaos having problems with single entities, especially not when compared to SM for instance.
Havocs still almost instantly suppress, everyone really has to pay some more attention in game. The trait is still there.
Slaughter needs a nerf.

Reducing the damage but buffing the RoF on the d-cannon introduces another number of problems that was also discussed in the thread. I much more preferred an other idea: some damage still instantly, the rest of the damage done by an AoE where the shot landed.

How do you counter melee heroes? High ranged dps from numerous squads and high damage suppression. The recent change on the havocs buffing their damage but lowering courage damage did help them and tbh overall was probably a buff but otherwise csm are hardly efficient with regards to ranged damage to req cost. Yes, nor are tacs but SM get the scouts which have decent req to dps ratios by default whereas tics for the most part aren't terribly useful vs melee heroes. Even then, I concur that SM themselves too struggle vs tanky melee heroes.

Do you not find the default chaos dreadnought underwhelming for its cost? I would much rather have the default gk dread, the AC SM dread or melta dread over it and I don't think that's really fair. It doesn't need a huge buff though, it's still good, I still keep in autocannon form sometimes but I find the niche-ness of it unfair to chaos. I think it would be appropriate to increase its potential for bleed and dealing with single entities and also its AV capabilities slightly.

I never really "got" what those problems associated with the increased ROF for the D-cannon were...

[Atlas]

I think the big thing in giving devs/havocs melee resist was to make them a little less squishy to serious melee squads in T2 like blood letters and banshees. If that's the case, how about adding a melee-resist aura to them that only is active when in retreat? I think it can be done since retreating does confer certain bonuses and penalties to damage while retreating.

As for the Chaos Dread I do feel the default gun needs some more single target oomph, but I would add maybe 10-20 req as an exchange. Chaos is pretty req heavy I know, but considering in some MUs the effect a more powerful vanilla Chaos Dread would be, I think a slight cost increase is warranted.