Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback thread

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Caeltos
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Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback thread

Postby Caeltos » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 4:35 am

Commissar Lord
Loyalty to the End replaced with Whiteshields // Conscripts
Whiteshield are green recruits, eager to prove themselves in battle to earn themselves the promotion of being a Guardsmen, a true soldier of the God-Emperor.

Whiteshields are inefficient combat infantry that are dependant on being in cover and relying on their sheer numbers to overwhelm their foes.

Tier 1 Global , no red cost
Cost - 125 requisition , build time 8s, pop 8 (Build time is abit w/e for now)
Health - 600 speed 5 melee skill 50 , no melee charge
Melee - 1 melee_pvp – Fist
Melee – 1 melee_pvp - Lascannon
Ranged - 2,06 (DPS) piercing_pvp – Lasguns
* Same Firing Pattern as Regular Guardsmen *
Ranged – 10 (DPS) brightlance_pvp – Lascannon
* 60 damage , 6 second interval between shots *
Courage - 100

Abilities
Repair - Standard repair rate
Hold your Ground! (Passive) - Whiteshields in cover(light or heavy) have their damage increased by 100% (Might prove finicky due to how lascannon might place itself if upgraded)
Loyalty to the End - During the period of this ability. Each model loss in the squad increases the remaining squads damage output by 25% and health by 25%.



Wargear
Sergeant (Tier 1 Unlocked) (85/5) - Adds in additional 3 models to the squad and grants the "Loyalty to the End (Tier 2 Unlocked)" ability. Reinforces 2 models for the price of one. 1 pop only upgrade.

Lascannon (Tier 2 Unlocked) (65 req) - Equips a Lascannon to a member of the squad. This weapon is effective against vehicles. However, due to lack of experience, the gunner is unable to fire as frequent, or inflict as much damage as the normal lascannon variants, and it will not slow targets hit by it.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Cheah18 » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 4:37 am

I think this is a great idea... I remember something similar being proposed a while back that I supported too.

BUT WHY does it have to replace LTTE? That global is so useful in the right moment and isn't an easy 'spam' ability.

Is the reason you want it replaced is because you consider it too strong or too useless? I argue it is neither of those things> Losing it would be a massive blow to the commissar.

Replace mines instead, although they can be kinda useful...
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Caeltos » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 4:42 am

There are several reasons, one of them being that I want to try to distinguish the commanders playstyles alot more. For say, the Inquisitior has assets available to her due to her rank, that means Banewolf, crowd control are somewhat her characteristics, whilst the Lord General has more traditional Imperial Guard traits, that being more on the defensive-toolsets with the Heavy Turret, and being able to provide the neccassary artillery support, or the on-demand Leman Russ potentials.

The Lord Commissar is more about beefing up his troops, and this change is going to attribute that change in the regard tha you can flock the battlefield with Conscripts, which you can furthermore improve with the aid of your Commander. Whilst they are not on the same par as other infantry in the game, their strength comes from numbers, and the support they recieve. Hench their relatively low pop upkeep, reinforcement cost and etc;

It depends on the execution however. If it fails to deliever on the intended new design, then it will ineveitably hurt the commander. But if it proves succesful, it can open up a more interesting gameplay dynamic and new ways to approach the game, as well as making each commander feel alot more different from one another.

I think the mines are pretty good, there's abit of a cooldown as well as red vs dump effiency however. But nevertheless, with this change. It leaves you open up to more room for mining up to serve as your potential snare to support your Conscripts, rather than dumping it on Loyalty to the End. Since Conscript Lascannons do not slow, the mines can effectively help to serve as a "Frontline" snare against walkers or potentially over-agressive vehicles that wish to flank the squad that's unleashing the lascannons on them. Overlapping Lascannons can prove quite useful in-conjunction with mines serving as the snare again.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Torpid » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 4:58 am

Models in a squad???
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Atlas » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 5:20 am

This could be very interesting actually. I was gonna say that I thought these guys were very very powerful for cost but actually looking at codex's numbers that doesn't seem to be the case. Good synergy with the execute and my god, once t2 unlocks and LTTE kicks in these guys will really pull their weight.

Will they be able to build cover like the gm? Also will the lascannon make it a setup team in behavior? The synergy with the Chimera is extremely obvious here. Being in T1 can also solve some capping issues that IG have in T1.

Color me intrigued. Also yes, number of models on the squad would also be great. I assumed 8 at start due to 8 pop and then changed to 11 with sergeant?
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby karnakkardak » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 7:31 am

Good to commisar lord. Inq and lg have tier 2 global/wargear very good to av. (Vanquisher cannon/inferno pistol) but commisar lord have not.
But... how about whiteshield in tier 1 they do close combat? Chainsword and laspistol. This is more like to "conscript" and when lasscanon upgrede,they fire range normally.

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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby enasni127 » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 7:59 am

@ caeltos:

Why would this be needed and why should it replace loyal to the end?

usually people (me) use loyal to the end if guardsmen die like flies - for example to massive AOE damage. supported by a chimera, loyal to the end can be very usefull then.

now you offer to give us a squad that is even more squishy than guardsmen if i get you right. sorry, but this would absolutely nerf the commi imho.

i don't even see the sense behind that? so many races (but especially chaos) get so many more units in their roaster, buffs, and especially chaos has so many ultra-versatile units/abilities atm, which they might not even have used. slaughter, dirtch caster, noise marines, melee and launcher tics, best autocannon, many buffs on other auto cannons, terminators...

....and now ig shall get just another cannon fodder to be annihilated by them?!

i would really like to be ig more of a mass army but please don't take away loyal to the end. it would be a horrible nerf to chimera play and the commissar.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I would really love to see the whiteshields and I think this could add a lot of possibilities and fun to IG. I just think it would be the wrong way to make it only available for the commissar and also i don't like the idea of replacing ltte with it.
Last edited by enasni127 on Mon 12 Jan, 2015 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Cheekie Monkie » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 10:11 am

Sounds good in theory, but I have a few concerns.

Zero red cost? Though I suppose this is no different than it being a buildable unit.

Hold your ground only affects the models in cover, I suppose? Would be too good if a single model affected the whole squad. Well at least we'll see more deployable cover!

I hope loyal to the end doesn't stack, otherwise that would be butt crazy.

Regardless, the unit does seem really cost efficient. Put them in the firing line and suddenly they'll have the similar damage and health to normal guardsmen at a fraction of the cost. We'll need to test it of course, but that wall of 2GM + Sent + Whiteshields + X looks to be very tough to break in T1, whilst also being able to scare off a vehicle rush, since sentinel + whiteshields could be enough to terrify light vehicles.

Oh well, more inspiration bait for my librarian I guess.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Superhooper01 » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 10:12 am

Would like to see what yarrick and every commissar players think but looks good so far and as always u have made it clear why and what u want. I always use flares with commie so i think this is a good global idea.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby karnakkardak » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 10:42 am

Many user claim 'this will limit tactics'. i agree. Ltte and chimera auto-reinforcement synergy so important and core commisar lord user's main strategy.
Then, how about replace air-dropped mine? Commisar's theme is beef-fighter but what relation with mine field?
Seems good now but if many user worring, replace another global is a... meditation.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Caeltos » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 1:52 pm

Some number-crunching to furthermore expand upon the unit stats;

Conscripts
Total Dps with Sergeant = 25,66 (51,32 in light/heavy cover)
Cost to reinforce = 8 requisition (The math is cost divided by two, divided by the X amount of models in the squad
Pop = 8+1 = 9 in total (max)

Compared to Regular Guardsmen
Total Dps with Sergeant (T1) = 35,9
Total Dps with Commissar (T2) = 59,84
Cost to reinroce = 17/18 requisition (17,5)
Pop = 6+3+3 = 12 in total (max)
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Commissar Yarrick » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 2:28 pm

Looking forward to this. I got such plans made already.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Torpid » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 3:29 pm

The 100% damage bonus in cover seems a bit extreme. I know it's not constantly doing that, but on defense this 8 pop squad are doing 50dps? IG are hard enough to push against as it is. 50% damage bonus might be more appropriate?
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Indrid » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 3:34 pm

Maybe +50% base with +10% per level? I'd like to see more mechanics that interacted with XP.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Torpid » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 4:21 pm

Indrid wrote:Maybe +50% base with +10% per level? I'd like to see more mechanics that interacted with XP.


That seems about right.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby enasni127 » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 4:35 pm

Torpid wrote:
Indrid wrote:Maybe +50% base with +10% per level? I'd like to see more mechanics that interacted with XP.


That seems about right.


And why should anybody buy them? I'm still not convinced. Why would I, as an imperial guard player, prefer that squad over LTTE as it is atm?

the whiteshields will be a quite numerous squad, so having all in green cover won't be possible all the time and so their damage buff should be quite high. (i think this is why caeltos set the damage bonus that high). the whiteshields still have less dps than a guardsmen squad and the money for them could be spent on units which are more important i think.

if they can be dropped, they could be good for capping or fighting off setup teams but different from that i just don't get how this can be better or even equal to LTTE as it already is.

i would suggest to make them a deployable unit for all ig heroes (cause otherwise it could lead to a "commissar-only play")

i mean, is it reason enough to add a "unit-drop-gobal" to the commissar, just cause the LG and Inq have some, too?
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Cheah18 » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 5:00 pm

Indrid wrote:Maybe +50% base with +10% per level? I'd like to see more mechanics that interacted with XP.


this is compatible with Caeltos's vision and is symbolic of the whiteshields gaining experience. But I'm concerned about losing LTTE...
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Cheekie Monkie » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 5:20 pm

I do like the fact that some people are loyal to the end about Loyal To The End
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Cheah18 » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 6:16 pm

Cheekie Monkie wrote:I do like the fact that some people are loyal to the end about Loyal To The End


I find their courage to speak up rather inspiring. Though I fear this determination and stubbornness will cause Caeltos's wrath to flare. I trust however he will Lead by Example and execute the change according to our suggestions, of which hopefully none shall fall on deaf ears.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby MaxPower » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 6:36 pm

How much XP/red does a single model/the whole unit give the player who is slaying them?

What about melee damage, do they deal any or not?
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Indrid » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 6:54 pm

Melee damage listed in the first post.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Atlas » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 7:01 pm

After sleeping on it, I'm starting to have concerns about this. I mentioned in a post in a different thread that the last thing IG needs is yet another fragile shooty squad and Whiteshields are.... well....

Plus I don't see why a commi player wouldn't go start gm - sent - white -white - t1.5 and just destroy people with the amount of cover still around in t1. Whiteshields reinforce for even cheaper than guardsman at that point and can potentially do more dps with some smart play and that's not even including the LTTE ability in T2. I also think that the green cover from being adjacent to a vehicle is being overlooked with the Chimera. There will be buffs. Lots of buffs.

I haven't even gotten started about an executed, LTTE Lascannon Whiteshield. I haven't done the math yet but I think that can put a serious dent in a lot of things even without snare. Could killing your own units with Flamer GM become a thing :P
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Daddy » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 9:20 pm

Cheah18 wrote:
Cheekie Monkie wrote:I do like the fact that some people are loyal to the end about Loyal To The End


I find their courage to speak up rather inspiring. Though I fear this determination and stubbornness will cause Caeltos's wrath to flare. I trust however he will Lead by Example and execute the change according to our suggestions, of which hopefully none shall fall on deaf ears.



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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Fr33man1800 » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 9:39 pm

I would totally love to see a new addition to the IG arsenal, however I don’t like the idea of restricting a unit to a single commander and especially to one that is probably already the most used.
I think heroes should differentiate on playstile/wargear not in units, since it reduces the strategic options for the other commanders of the same faction (And yes I know that INQ has bane and LG heavy turret). To be clear I’m not saying this as an LG player since my main used to be CL in retail I just hate restricting units to certain commanders. IMO All units should be available to all commanders.
Also as mentioned above, I already like the current global for the CL and I think it’s also very thematic considering the fluff. Maybe commissar lord players could get cheaper/better versions of this unit or perhaps a special ability (much like the different versions of worship for the chaos heroes) perhaps even costing some red much like waaargh in order to avoid changing LTE or adding another global.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Ven » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 10:31 pm

Atlas wrote:After sleeping on it, I'm starting to have concerns about this. I mentioned in a post in a different thread that the last thing IG needs is yet another fragile shooty squad and Whiteshields are.... well....

Plus I don't see why a commi player wouldn't go start gm - sent - white -white - t1.5 and just destroy people with the amount of cover still around in t1. Whiteshields reinforce for even cheaper than guardsman at that point and can potentially do more dps with some smart play and that's not even including the LTTE ability in T2. I also think that the green cover from being adjacent to a vehicle is being overlooked with the Chimera. There will be buffs. Lots of buffs.

I haven't even gotten started about an executed, LTTE Lascannon Whiteshield. I haven't done the math yet but I think that can put a serious dent in a lot of things even without snare. Could killing your own units with Flamer GM become a thing :P


thing is atlas is that, by time time T3 hits there wont be much cover so their effectiveness drops off considerably. also GM squads would be cheaper to reinforce in T2 due to commisar upgrade.

i am however worried about whiteshields scalability, i mean a lascannon upgrade? they're already cheaper than HWT so why should they get a lascannon upgrade? also if this lascannon would be some kind of sargent i'd be very difficult to get rid of either because of your guys not targeting the model you want or it being a die last sargent.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Daddy » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 10:47 pm

Fr33man1800 wrote:Also as mentioned above, I already like the current global for the CL and I think it’s also very thematic considering the fluff. Maybe commissar lord players could get cheaper/better versions of this unit or perhaps a special ability (much like the different versions of worship for the chaos heroes) perhaps even costing some red much like waaargh in order to avoid changing LTE or adding another global.



I agree With Ven in that their effectiveness will drop significantly into later tiers.

I also agree with Freeman that in making them a temporary call in rather that a permanent unit.
Why not have them as a call in to help defend or soak up some damage, for the cost of red.

In late tiers, there practically wont be any cover left, so Whiteshield would just roam the map doing pitiful damage whereas upgraded guardsmen would fare much better.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Cheah18 » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 11:07 pm

Daddy wrote:In late tiers, there practically wont be any cover left, so Whiteshield would just roam the map doing pitiful damage whereas upgraded guardsmen would fare much better.


I've heard this before but you get a lot of blast craters.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Cyris » Mon 12 Jan, 2015 11:42 pm

They read too much like a 2/3 sized guardsmen squad to me. They look like they will play almost exactly the same (replace 2 guard with 3 of these) though better at capping and repairing. The damage bonus is interesting, though it's annoying to get large squads like them to all be in cover. I don't like adding a new unit that is almost the same as en existing one.

Some examples of what I would consider hits and misses on that note: The PCs melee marines are great, really unique and interesting. Similar in theory to KCSM, but with enough unique aspects that really differentiate them. On the other hand there is IG's karskins, which have always felt a lot like leveled up stormtroopers that trade stealth more dps. Strong, but not really interesting or unique.

I'm a bit scared at the idea of the LC having an additional AV source, and one he can execute for 8 req and no power! The threat of an executed HWT already mostly scares me off from much walker or transport play, this is going to make it even worse. IG hardly lack T2 AV as is. I do appreciate attempting to scale them into T2 differently then guardsmen.

As for late game cover, ditto on the craters. There is NO lack of yellow cover late game, and by that point you prolly want these guys a little back being Las support anyways. 60 damage for the cannon, X2 from cover, X2 for execute: 180 a hit (more if you LTTF). Ouchies... And if all else fails you spend 2 sec making a wall peg with your guards.

I do like the synergy with guardsmen - they build walls, then the whiteshield hold territory. I like that they have a direct encouragement to get into cover, this is the part of them that is the most differentiating then guard. I could see it as a defensive bonus instead tbh: their specialty is that they are hard to dislodge from cover. Imagine even a T2 upgrade that gets them refractor field style resistance to KB/suppression if in cover?

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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Broodwich » Tue 13 Jan, 2015 6:09 am

Cheah18 wrote:
Cheekie Monkie wrote:I do like the fact that some people are loyal to the end about Loyal To The End


I find their courage to speak up rather inspiring. Though I fear this determination and stubbornness will cause Caeltos's wrath to flare. I trust however he will Lead by Example and execute the change according to our suggestions, of which hopefully none shall fall on deaf ears.

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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Helios » Tue 13 Jan, 2015 7:10 am

I had either suggested, or planned on suggesting this before. Make the Conscripts however you'd like but take a slightly weakened version of LTTE (since it won't cost anymore red) and put it on his T2 Power fist.

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