Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback thread

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Cheekie Monkie
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Cheekie Monkie » Tue 13 Jan, 2015 10:46 am

if people are so worried about lack of cover and there's not a friendly neighbourhood warboss around, then it's time we redesigned deployable cover!

The simplest solution would be that they'd come in 2x1 blocks instead of the 1x1 blocks we have at the moment. If this is deemed too powerful, we can change the cover type to yellow instead of green.

A more dramatic solution would be to replace deployable cover with Aegis Defence Lines, which would be the size equivalent of a 5x1 or a 6x1 deployable cover block (yellow or green cover). This is meant to be the poor man's energy shield, built with a nominal requisition cost e.g. 20-35 req instead of energy.

I don't want to derail the thread with my own suggestions; all I'm saying is that we can make the whiteshield cover mechanic work by simply tweaking existing mechanics i.e. deployable cover.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Cheah18 » Tue 13 Jan, 2015 3:55 pm

Increasing the deployable cover rate of build is perfect
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Protagonist » Wed 14 Jan, 2015 3:46 am

This is a neat Idea but Im not sure why we would have a global that costs no red. It seems more practical to just add the unit to the roster and keep the old loyal to the end as it is now, or maybe replace it and/or move the ability(slightly weakened to compensate) over to the Commissar Power Claw as Helios suggested.

The units role seems interesting as do the mechanics relating to cover. I personally think they might help make IG map control a bit better by providing a cheap squad that can go cap while the rest of the army fights or contribute to the bigger firefights.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby enasni127 » Wed 14 Jan, 2015 1:00 pm

Protagonist wrote:This is a neat Idea but Im not sure why we would have a global that costs no red. It seems more practical to just add the unit to the roster and keep the old loyal to the end as it is now, or maybe replace it and/or move the ability(slightly weakened to compensate) over to the Commissar Power Claw as Helios suggested.

The units role seems interesting as do the mechanics relating to cover. I personally think they might help make IG map control a bit better by providing a cheap squad that can go cap while the rest of the army fights or contribute to the bigger firefights.



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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Toilailee » Wed 14 Jan, 2015 1:45 pm

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Don't replace ltte man, it's one of my favorite globals. :cry:
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Cheah18 » Wed 14 Jan, 2015 4:18 pm

Toilailee wrote:NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Don't replace ltte man, it's one of my favorite globals. :cry:


Seconded
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby fankater » Wed 14 Jan, 2015 4:26 pm

Caeltos plz noo :/
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby BaptismByLoli » Thu 15 Jan, 2015 9:49 am

Cheah18 wrote:
Toilailee wrote:NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Don't replace ltte man, it's one of my favorite globals. :cry:


Seconded


Ditto
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Torpid » Thu 15 Jan, 2015 11:27 am

i'm going to be honest but I really don't give a damn about losing LTTE. Why would anyone use LTTE over flare when flare can be used in so many more scenarios, is practically an instant engagement winner, is likely to result in fewer lost models and costs less red? Maybe when flare is on that 2minute cooldown?
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Cheah18 » Thu 15 Jan, 2015 4:44 pm

Torpid wrote:i'm going to be honest but I really don't give a damn about losing LTTE. Why would anyone use LTTE over flare when flare can be used in so many more scenarios, is practically an instant engagement winner, is likely to result in fewer lost models and costs less red? Maybe when flare is on that 2minute cooldown?


The frequency of use isn't what is important when you can have both. I agree I would rather have flare but no I would definitely prefer both. Sure, flare wins a lot of enagagements, but I for on have ended up in many a situation where, for example, some poor soul thinks he has managed to bring KCSM, ASM or some other tough melee unit into CC with my 2 plasma gm. He thinks disrupting/tying up one with melee (bleeding a lot of my models in the process) while out dpsing the other at range will do a huge amount of damage to my req, even in spite of the chimera/med bunker a little back. Besides, all I've got is 2 gm and a chimera vs practically his whole army due to my 'absent-minded' positioning; all he has to do is drive through my gm/chimera and onto my waiting lascannon and bring the vehicle through, then the ground and my gens are his. This is a sure win for him...

Well not really, because I've activated LTTE and before he knows it my tied up gm unit are tanking his kcsm (with the commissar of the squad doing some lovely >Tac Sarge damage if he gets the buff too?), and the gm who are shooting their guns are now probably producing like 300% dps. He will probably notice this before long but in the time it takes him to do so he will have most likely bled so much and will have to retreat and pay hugely. The vehicle he was waiting to attack with is now moving to avoid my lascannon while my 2gm/chimera go straight through and bash his gens. All the while LC and senty are capping around the map.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Sub_Zero » Fri 16 Jan, 2015 4:21 pm

You start executing loyal to the end units and things go really worse for your opponent especially if you keep constantly reinforcing executed units.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Protagonist » Sat 17 Jan, 2015 12:08 am

Just a thought, I think a missile launcher for the squad might be more practical than the lascannon due to set up weapons having the tendency to face the wrong way.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Cheah18 » Sat 17 Jan, 2015 12:25 am

Protagonist wrote:Just a thought, I think a missile launcher for the squad might be more practical than the lascannon due to set up weapons having the tendency to face the wrong way.


I agree. I was thinking an alternative might be better and the missile launcher makes the most sense.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Protagonist » Sat 17 Jan, 2015 1:50 am

Cheah18 wrote:
Protagonist wrote:Just a thought, I think a missile launcher for the squad might be more practical than the lascannon due to set up weapons having the tendency to face the wrong way.


I agree. I was thinking an alternative might be better and the missile launcher makes the most sense.


It also lets me pretend that they are Tallarn raiders which is a small secret bonus for me.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Caeltos » Sat 17 Jan, 2015 2:41 am

I don't believe guardsmen have the animation for any missile launcher type of equipment.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Ven » Sat 17 Jan, 2015 3:14 am

Caeltos wrote:I don't believe guardsmen have the animation for any missile launcher type of equipment.


its not like the missile launcher has much recoil. also i fully expect there to be a way to port the tactical marine animation over and make the model with the missile launcher accordingly. i have seen videos of tactical marines using termagant animations lol
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby BaptismByLoli » Sat 17 Jan, 2015 3:33 am

Guardsmen and Tactical Marines use different skeletal joints needed for animation if memory serves me well. Copy and Paste won't work.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Wise Windu » Sat 17 Jan, 2015 3:47 am

Ven wrote:
Caeltos wrote:I don't believe guardsmen have the animation for any missile launcher type of equipment.


its not like the missile launcher has much recoil. also i fully expect there to be a way to port the tactical marine animation over and make the model with the missile launcher accordingly. i have seen videos of tactical marines using termagant animations lol
BaptismByLoli wrote:Guardsmen and Tactical Marines use different skeletal joints needed for animation if memory serves me well. Copy and Paste won't work.
There most likely is a way to add the animation to guardsmen, but I have no idea how to add animations, and as far as I know, neither does Myrdal. Like Discreet said (I'm not calling you that :) ) I don't think they could be ported over (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this) because animations are based on how the models' bones and stuff are rigged. If it was just ported over, it would probably look terrible and be glitchy as hell. Learning how to do it would probably take a while, time I really don't have to put into it, and would probably require learning some modeling + animation in 3DS Max. I think the only people I've seen do it recently are Uncle_anaesthesia and Shuma.

If you or someone else wants to give it a go though, that would be awesome.

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Anyway, back to balance.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby BaptismByLoli » Sat 17 Jan, 2015 7:17 am

My memory here is hazy since this Whiteshield discussion first started about a year ago but weren't Whiteshield's first thought of as a way to soak up damage and such?

If this is their true purpose, why not make them have slightly higher speed than normal Guardsmen so that the enemy would auto target them first as a result unless ordered otherwise.

Also, if the damage buff seems a bit scary, how about a defensive buff instead? Something like less damage taken or nullify them from some debuffs like suppression instead. Under support from chimera, bunkers, or other IG shenanigans, they can be able to hold on to a point until help arrives.

I'm even thinking about removing their cover mechanic altogether and let them have a passive ability where the death of each model increases the hp of all other remaining models in the squad by 100% though as a result, they can't reinforce (if that's even possible)

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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Swift » Sat 17 Jan, 2015 5:04 pm

The whole idea reminds me of Ostruppen Reserves from CoH 2, cheap rubbishy squad that suddenly makes up for it when in cover.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Daddy » Sat 17 Jan, 2015 11:25 pm

I would love to see Whitesheild implemented in Elite mod.

It adds to the evolution of the game. And It sounds like a very unique feature for the IG Commissar.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby enasni127 » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 9:26 am

Caeltos wrote:I don't believe guardsmen have the animation for any missile launcher type of equipment.


;(

I would have liked an answer to all these concerns about the white shields replaying LTTE and maybe some suggestions how it could be made better. I mean, this discussion was made to hear or thoughts about it - maybe you could just give us a bit feedback from your points of view.

- what do you think about adding whiteshields to the unit roaster and leave LTTE as it is? many people want that
- why do you think it should replace LTTE?

- and could we please have an autocannon for the sentinel please? The missile launcher disables its kiting ability and that's bad sometimes ;)
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Cheah18 » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 11:58 am

enasni127 wrote:- and could we please have an autocannon for the sentinel please? The missile launcher disables its kiting ability and that's bad sometimes ;)


Trust me, I want every little bit of improvement IG can get. But autocannon sents is a tough one... People express valid concerns about having anti all, FOTM sents around being OP. I sympathise with this. I do believe however that Vehicle armour, low hp, SLOW autocannon sents are a possibility with regards to balance; it gives the sent a point past late tier 2. But I am treading carefully here as I don't think I know enough about the game to make such suggestions with 100% confidence.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby enasni127 » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 12:34 pm

Cheah18 wrote:
enasni127 wrote:- and could we please have an autocannon for the sentinel please? The missile launcher disables its kiting ability and that's bad sometimes ;)


Trust me, I want every little bit of improvement IG can get. But autocannon sents is a tough one... People express valid concerns about having anti all, FOTM sents around being OP. I sympathise with this. I do believe however that Vehicle armour, low hp, SLOW autocannon sents are a possibility with regards to balance; it gives the sent a point past late tier 2. But I am treading carefully here as I don't think I know enough about the game to make such suggestions with 100% confidence.


It was more a little joke/wish and I didn't mean to start a discussion on this here :)

I just feel the Sentinel Missile Launcher is a bad upgrade for the sentinel. Most of the time i try to use the Sentinel as melee counter and that means lots of FOTM and constant damage. Sadly the Multilaser is too weak for that on T2 and the missiles don't have FOTM. This is why i think there must be a change which is good vs infantry but bad vs vehicles. Maybe some plasma-damage-type weapon would be better ...or maybe just a significant DPS upgrade for the multilaser on t2. but really, this should not be discussed here :)
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Nurland » Mon 19 Jan, 2015 1:11 pm

Sentinels become backline support unit in t2. The missile launcher do nice AV or just absolutely wreck any infantry that is not constantly moving.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby enasni127 » Mon 19 Jan, 2015 2:28 pm

Nurland wrote:Sentinels become backline support unit in t2. The missile launcher do nice AV or just absolutely wreck any infantry that is not constantly moving.


absolutely right. the problem here is: enemy melee units will for sure be moving - and there i just miss fotm
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Ven » Mon 19 Jan, 2015 3:14 pm

enasni127 wrote:
Nurland wrote:Sentinels become backline support unit in t2. The missile launcher do nice AV or just absolutely wreck any infantry that is not constantly moving.


absolutely right. the problem here is: enemy melee units will for sure be moving - and there i just miss fotm


well if melee units get close to the sentinel then it has the stomp, and if your enemy got melee units already then its very likely you have catachans aswell. your goal with the catachans is to stop them from even getting close. if it gets to the point where your sentinel is on the frontline and everything is being forced off from one melee squad then its likely a lost engagement anyway.

also the default might aswell not have Fotm as its fotm accruacy is horrible.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Helios » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 8:33 pm

Getting back on topic, how goes the balance on these guys so far? What are you testing out with them? It seems a little weird for a large team of units to have a setup weapon like that.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Caeltos » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 3:24 am

I have alot of stuff going on RL at the moment with my brothers wedding coming up in 2 weeks. Alot of planning has had to have some readjustements and extra help on my end, due to my mother being in abit of an accident mid-december. So the motivation is abit all out of the place, and I need to priotize.

I for now, just evaluate the implementation of the concept of the unit based abit on the feedback on the thread. Pre-concerns that seems to be legit, and etc.
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Re: Whiteshield (Replaces Loyalty to the End) feedback threa

Postby Spartan717 » Mon 26 Jan, 2015 3:25 am

One of the advantages of 'loyal to the end' is that it can affect different types of units. You can use it freely on Ogryn and stormtroopers which synergises quite well for defensive or offensive strategies. Furthermore, you can target multiple squads if they are grouped together, hence provide a powerful mass of units which are difficult for the enemies to force off.

By limiting this ability to one unit, some strategies for LC players will be taken away as they are forced to use 'weaker gaurdsmen' type unit which has limited versatility when compared to using multiple units.

Perhaps a solution would be to have the ability not only affect the 'Whiteshields', but also provide a smaller buff to your units nearby (ie. adjust the HP and damage value bonuses). The cooldown of the ability or a resource cost (for using the ability) may be implemented in order to appeal to balancing concerns. In doing so you not only retain the core fundamentals of LTTE, but also reinforces the idea of whiteshields being and supportive/defensive as well as an important unit to the roster.

I look forward to the future plans for the unit nonetheless :)

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