Eldar detection and Destructor

[Torpid]

It's more that if we set the detection range to standard (i.e. 30), as opposed to Rangers' (i.e. 40), the sentinel being a single entity makes it more vulnerable to being killed off quickly.

It's like, imagine IG vs Chaos Sorc. If you move the Sentinel up to detect, you might eat a TCSM and Lashavoc to the face, losing the sentinel for sure. You just have no idea what's in there until it's too late because T1 standard engagement range is 38 and that only gets larger as the game goes on.

The fact that the Sentinel isn't a detector now means that it can sit at the rear of the formation, much like fire prisms.

I know you suggested T2 upgrade Toil, but I still think it makes little sense for a fire support unit to have it.

In a IG vs sorc scenario you are obviously going to get spotters to counter the inevitable havoc/blastmaster and spotters would do the detecting for you there. I think you're missing the point of the upgrade, it's not so that you can avoid ever getting catachans/spotters, because those units are vital to winning vs some BOs; what a t2 detecting sentinel upgrade would do is make it far less annoying for IG to deal with units like melta stormtroopers who with a detector around are only average, they do their job, but without a detector they are as OP as terminators in t1. Most races by the time melta storms come out would already have detection except eldar + IG, or at the very least they could easily get them. It would be nice if IG upon seeing one of these units didn't have to fork out on a totally new unit. Melta storms aren't even the only example either; what about infiltrated ogryns, farseer gates + WG, rangers, IEDs, scouts, gates in general etc etc.

[Codex]

I was posting on the assumption that Spotters don't have detection; 3 detectors for IG on such a variety of units would be overkill imo. Therefore I've been considering Sentinel as a primary detector.

I understand that the issue is that IG don't have an upgrade to get detection, so when I Pm'd toil I threw an idea out (obviously could need tweaking) where you have a branching option like Aspect of Strength vs Fleetness, where instead of a Sarge you could buy a 75/25 Leader which would give the extra members, the die last leader and detection, in addition to another ability (like a disruptive grenade or something), but the tradeoff would be that you don't get the 2 for 1 reinforce from this leader. You would still get 2 for 1 with a Commissar though.

The point of this being is that without the 2 for 1 reinforce, said GM squad would be easier to force off, and as such won't be as good at holding the line, but could be forced off before attempting infiltrated operations. On the other hand, the IG player will have to take care of this detector well if he wants to make full use of it.

Just an idea I thought would be worth throwing out there. As I said, would probably need tweaks.

[Torpid]

I was posting on the assumption that Spotters don't have detection; 3 detectors for IG on such a variety of units would be overkill imo. Therefore I've been considering Sentinel as a primary detector.

I understand that the issue is that IG don't have an upgrade to get detection, so when I Pm'd toil I threw an idea out (obviously could need tweaking) where you have a branching option like Aspect of Strength vs Fleetness, where instead of a Sarge you could buy a 75/25 Leader which would give the extra members, the die last leader and detection, in addition to another ability (like a disruptive grenade or something), but the tradeoff would be that you don't get the 2 for 1 reinforce from this leader. You would still get 2 for 1 with a Commissar though.

The point of this being is that without the 2 for 1 reinforce, said GM squad would be easier to force off, and as such won't be as good at holding the line, but could be forced off before attempting infiltrated operations. On the other hand, the IG player will have to take care of this detector well if he wants to make full use of it.

Just an idea I thought would be worth throwing out there. As I said, would probably need tweaks.

I don't know what to think about this. I thought initially that because you wouldn't need chans/spotters for detection it would lead to 3x GM builds, but to be honest 3x GM just doesn't work vs pretty much all races bar orks and possibly nids, depending on your hero and theirs.

And most of the problematic infiltration units which don't warrant a hard infiltration counter (cats) are in t2 so I doubt I would want to pay 25 power for a upgrade that basically makes my GM less combat efficient (that would depend on the power of the grenade of course), and of course if I don't get the infiltration leader then I'm gonna have to get either more GM, or a sarge or I'll lose early map control badly, all just so I have insurance against a scary t2 infiltration prospect.

[Eye0fHoruS]

Codex what is your location within the UK - Email... ???

[Nuclear Arbitor]

GM also have a full upgrade list.

[KanKrusha]

It could be done

Put the new upgrade in the same position as commissar, now make commissar upgrade require sarge or the new upgrade to show

[Kvek]

GM also have a full upgrade list.

That's not a problem, in Codex mod you have more than 7 upgrades on a dreadnought

[Lulgrim]

We can put >4 on a unit I think, just never needed to.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

fascinating... do they continue stacking up or do they go left? i know 4 will fit in one stack quite cleanly.

[JuhwannX]

It's kinda this ghetto ass side thing, where the upgrade hangs off the side of the normal 4 upgrades. If I'm honest, it does look kinda funny.

[KanKrusha]

But with cleverly interacting requirements you don't need to do that

You can probably also use the hero layout for any squad which I think is what Lulgrim is hinting at

[Raffa]

Back on topic...

+1 to everything Ace said in original post. Destructor in particular makes Chaos vs Eldar MU very very hard if the Eldar player knows what he's doing.

[Tex]

So? Destructor makes warlock vs chaos hard? It always has done that. I don't think that is the main issue at all. (sorry if I am repeating anything, I didn't have time to read the whole thread)

Here are my main issues with warlock vs chaos and why it has become so incredibly one sided. Keep in mind destructor hasn't changed at all, and that's why it isn't the root of this problem in any way.

1) MWB is almost uncounterable by chaos T1
-Ranged stance absolutely robs the sorc and pc of any presence. Chaos lord is eaten alive by the melee. Tics cant touch him, he can even charge down a havok because of the knockback shot right before his jump, and getting 2x CSM vs eldar is a very slippery slope when trying to counter a single entity with mass range fire. (I guess I should list that the changes made to this thing are very sutble. First, it no longer does friendly damage with its special, and second, the warlock fires a quick knockback bolt right before his combat leap)

2) Champions robe now provides weapon_knockback immunity.
-I'm not saying its a bad change, other shields provide the same protection. It does however change the fact that kill the weak can no longer interrupt the warlock when he is charging at your CSM or a havok that needs to setup.

3) Channeling runes are crazy and completely eliminate the damage your banshee counter can do (AC tics)
-If you haven't used channeling runes against chaos, your are truly foolish.

4) ***This is the most important eldar change in elite that has altered this matchup*** Shurikan platform can now upgrade to brightlance.
-This change right here has completely ruined the use of bloodcrushers against eldar. It has also made it incredibly hard to "exact t2 revenge" against the powerful eldar t1 the way I used to with chaos. There used to be a window of time where you could push back at an eldar with vehicles and even out the game. This window has been seamlessly shut with the brightlance upgrade.

5) Dark reapers/Fire dragons.
-countering my t2 options faster and cheaper than I can even build them.

6) Warp throw.
-Do I really need to explain the aggravation this wargear causes? It hasn't changed, so technically I shouldn't be listing it, but how could I not? This thing completely prevents any static defense of a shrine or w/e.

7) Wraithlord upgraded with brightlance
-This upgrade is now fotm. The wraithlord suffers now damage penalty to melee and still does splash. The wraithlord moves faster than the other heavies. Its just too much really. The range of this brightlance pretty much forces chaos to commit to a battle completely if a dreadnaught is involved (which often is the case).

8) Immolater cost reduction to 100-25
-I agree with this cost reduction. It does however, make using heretics against the warlock or his army, that much more problematic.

Keep in mind now that I have only listed things on the warlock side of the spectrum that affect this matchup greatly. There are also a ton of things that have changed on the chaos side, and many of them do not help this matchup either.

[Ace of Swords]

1) For me MWB is too strong all around, not just vs chaos, but all in all, it's doable with EW on csm and the support of your hero while your tics stand ready to intercept/block banshees, ofc this is assuming that you take a defensive position for T1.

2)I didn't know about that change and i don't see why it should give the WL KB immunity, it's already a very fast,tanky and high dps/utility hero with a moderately long range leap which also does KB, there is no reason for him to be immune to KBs.

3)Channeling runes are good but i think they are fine, perhaps there should be a slight nerf in the range so that the warlock is more exposed when using them.

4)I guess you intend a rush to the bloodcrusher? because before they just had to invest 300 req for the AV platform with the highest dps in the game, the only downside it had was probably the build time.

5)Agree

6)Pretty much everyone agrees on this as of now, exept eldar fanboys.

7)Fully agree, it also makes any kind of transport thats not a chimera completely useless.

8)Didn't see the need to lower this, it was expensive yes but still a very good upgrade both damage wise from the weapon AND from the ability which is also a garrison/turret counter (just for a reminder turrets are 30 power).

[Raffa]

All this without considering the insane health regen his gayts let him have.

It's not even funny. He's hardly back at base then boom he's running out/into a gayt again on full hp.

Agree with all Tex's points

[Tex]

Ah yes, I did forget the gate regen advantage. When managed correctly that is very powerful indeed for not only the warlock hero, but for a badly damage banshee squad or DA squad or Shuri squad as these units tend to soak crazy amounts of damage before bleeding models.

[Raffa]

Come to think of it the warlock is prolly the strongest hero in the game. I don't like comparing commanders but seriously consider his bleeding/tanking power, coupled with serious adaptability (i.e. channeling runes), great wargears (warp throw, heart of darkness etc) not to mention the choice between aoe damage or single target damage through his weapons. Plus gayts. There's just no substitute for this versatility. Seriously think about it - there is no matchup he does not have the advantage in.

With the possible exception of the LA.

@Caeltos
re Eldar nerfs topic. I have some sympathy for you here (must be a pain to filter the good information from the tons of crap posted on these forums), and I agree, despite my reservations about the unit, Dark Reapers were probably the best solution to help Eldar deal with SHI.

What I do disagree with is
a) locking most of the balance topics
b) once again, your assessment of webway gates.

If the problem is the same people posting the same shit then maybe give access to the topics only to certain people so the discussion can at least continue advancing in one form or another. I'm not saying one rule for x people and one for y or ZOMG MAKE ME EXCLUSIVE MEMBER YEHHH, but it's unrealistic for anyone, yes even someone as experienced as you, to expect to advance the mod balance-wise without feedback from the people playing the damn thing

As for webway gates I don't even want to go into these. They're the only definitively broken thing in the game afaik. In fact I don't think there's one experienced player who can honestly defend them in their current form. I understand they are part of the Eldar playstyle and I don't want to see anything in the game redundant but it's insane how these haven't been fixed after so long. You just cannot beat an equally skilled Eldar player who abuses these properly unless they majorly fuck up.

Just to make the point - I am now a Warlock player/abuser. Will try to get some games posted that showcase these issues.

[Vapor]

Is the problem just the spammability of the gates for cheap cost? Would it be reasonable to increase gate cost to 85 or 100 red but have a default webway added to the Eldar player's base, to eliminate the initial cost of putting out gates for travel? (Obviously the "base" gate would not have the usual active ability e.g. WL health regen)

[Ace of Swords]

Is the problem just the spammability of the gates for cheap cost?

yes, ideally 75 should be the right spot as far as red cost goes, because 3 gates now= 150 red if they were 75 it would be 2 gates=150 red, that would help alot the spamming issues or atleast if they keep spamming them they won't be able to use all all of their other globals as much especially late game ones such as eldrich storm/seer council/wse call in.

Also about the warp throw:
-increase the casting time by 1 second
-show a marker in the epicenter.

And yes, it would be still very useful, except that now it would require some skill to use propely and it would be finally dodgeable when used just to pull out of position static units instead of using it during an engagment like it happens for all the other abilities,globals,nukes in the game which have a huge match changing factor.

[Arbit]

Is it possible to have the gates* reveal themselves when a squad (detector or no) comes within, say, range 10 or so? This would solve two problems - non-detectors don't have to hug the gate in order to shoot it, and finding a gate in the first place with a non-detector wouldn't require them to literally bump into it.

* "gayts" is not nearly as clever as you think

[crazyman64335]

personally i went back and watched a few older casts where gates when't infiltrated, and they seemed perfectly balanced back then. So i present 2 solutions

1. Make them non infiltrated, that way they're more comparable to the RA tunnel, however they still retain their ability that eldar are known for being swift and ambushy.

or

2. Remove their abilities, the heal from the warlock is obviously the most notable, but keep their ability to remain infiltrated.

Thoughts on 1 of these 2 options? Quite frankly i seem to prefer option 1 more imo, but that's just me.

[FiSH]

i'd argue that farseer gate ability is more potent than others.

in any case, caeltos already said that he is not planning to make any changes to gates any time soon, so i don't see a point in discussing gates here.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

infiltrate is make or break for gates. you could get rid of all of the abilities, decrease the transport limit to one, increase the cost a bit, and they would still be useable. remove infiltrate from their current form and they're much, much less useable, and not just for aggressive play.

re: gate ability spam
give them a small (10-25) red cost. it would cut down on spam but shouldn't have to much effect on limited uses.

[Codex]

They're staying the same, and I have no interest in making any changes to webways anytime soon.

So I'm gonna post this here so we're all clear. Discussion is good and all, but the thread of discussion on Webways is not going to affect the balance state. I'm not banning discussion about webways, but let's keep the heated arguments that got the previous thread locked to a minimum.

[Broodwich]

Responding to the beginning of the thread because I aint reading 12 pages...

Whats wrong with making guardian leader t1 and detector? You could make him give detector and some combo of nades/fof/shield and just make him cost more. Then you give the aspect upgrade t2 that gives them the health bonus and whatever you left out t1 as well as passive ranged damage reduction that the leader currently gives. Cause rangers aint that good at being detectors.

Personally I'd say 85/25 for leader t1, who gives nades and fof and detector. Then aspect at same cost t2 which gives shields, embolden and passive damage reduction.

Thoughts?

[Torpid]

Eldar t1 is too power expensive for a 25 power exarch who undoubtedly would die every engagement to the lictor alpha. Even if he was die last, he would still be rather expensive for his role which wouldn't be any better than the current aspect they get, if it was it would risk being OP for t1 since DA are fine in both of the first tiers atm anyway.

[Codex]

Deleted previous posts for lack of content.

Some people are coming into this thread going "I don't wanna read 12 pages before posting", and fair enough. So let's try to keep the mindless spam to a minimum please to keep this thread concise and to the point.

Asmon, if you have a point, do make it.

[Raffa]

1) MWB is almost uncounterable by chaos T1
-Ranged stance absolutely robs the sorc and pc of any presence. Chaos lord is eaten alive by the melee. Tics cant touch him, he can even charge down a havok because of the knockback shot right before his jump, and getting 2x CSM vs eldar is a very slippery slope when trying to counter a single entity with mass range fire. (I guess I should list that the changes made to this thing are very sutble. First, it no longer does friendly damage with its special, and second, the warlock fires a quick knockback bolt right before his combat leap)

2) Champions robe now provides weapon_knockback immunity.
-I'm not saying its a bad change, other shields provide the same protection. It does however change the fact that kill the weak can no longer interrupt the warlock when he is charging at your CSM or a havok that needs to setup.

3) Channeling runes are crazy and completely eliminate the damage your banshee counter can do (AC tics)
-If you haven't used channeling runes against chaos, your are truly foolish.

4) ***This is the most important eldar change in elite that has altered this matchup*** Shurikan platform can now upgrade to brightlance.
-This change right here has completely ruined the use of bloodcrushers against eldar. It has also made it incredibly hard to "exact t2 revenge" against the powerful eldar t1 the way I used to with chaos. There used to be a window of time where you could push back at an eldar with vehicles and even out the game. This window has been seamlessly shut with the brightlance upgrade.

5) Dark reapers/Fire dragons.
-countering my t2 options faster and cheaper than I can even build them.

6) Warp throw.
-Do I really need to explain the aggravation this wargear causes? It hasn't changed, so technically I shouldn't be listing it, but how could I not? This thing completely prevents any static defense of a shrine or w/e.

7) Wraithlord upgraded with brightlance
-This upgrade is now fotm. The wraithlord suffers now damage penalty to melee and still does splash. The wraithlord moves faster than the other heavies. Its just too much really. The range of this brightlance pretty much forces chaos to commit to a battle completely if a dreadnaught is involved (which often is the case).

8) Immolater cost reduction to 100-25
-I agree with this cost reduction. It does however, make using heretics against the warlock or his army, that much more problematic.

Keep in mind now that I have only listed things on the warlock side of the spectrum that affect this matchup greatly. There are also a ton of things that have changed on the chaos side, and many of them do not help this matchup either.

Add to that the Mantle of Hate duration decrease, destructor zapping 80%+ of heretic hp and practically guaranteeing a retreat, swift movement...

Plus the health regeneration provided by Warlock webway gates, which often means he's only been back at base for ~15 seconds tops when he's shooting out again at full hp. Although this is a general point that helps the Warlock in all matchups, it is exacerbated against Chaos given the difficulties a Warlock already poses to them.

Is there anyone out there who thinks this matchup is not borderline impossible for Chaos to win?

[FiSH]

So? Destructor makes warlock vs chaos hard? It always has done that. I don't think that is the main issue at all. (sorry if I am repeating anything, I didn't have time to read the whole thread)

Here are my main issues with warlock vs chaos and why it has become so incredibly one sided. Keep in mind destructor hasn't changed at all, and that's why it isn't the root of this problem in any way.

1) MWB is almost uncounterable by chaos T1
-Ranged stance absolutely robs the sorc and pc of any presence. Chaos lord is eaten alive by the melee. Tics cant touch him, he can even charge down a havok because of the knockback shot right before his jump, and getting 2x CSM vs eldar is a very slippery slope when trying to counter a single entity with mass range fire. (I guess I should list that the changes made to this thing are very sutble. First, it no longer does friendly damage with its special, and second, the warlock fires a quick knockback bolt right before his combat leap)

2) Champions robe now provides weapon_knockback immunity.
-I'm not saying its a bad change, other shields provide the same protection. It does however change the fact that kill the weak can no longer interrupt the warlock when he is charging at your CSM or a havok that needs to setup.

3) Channeling runes are crazy and completely eliminate the damage your banshee counter can do (AC tics)
-If you haven't used channeling runes against chaos, your are truly foolish.

4) ***This is the most important eldar change in elite that has altered this matchup*** Shurikan platform can now upgrade to brightlance.
-This change right here has completely ruined the use of bloodcrushers against eldar. It has also made it incredibly hard to "exact t2 revenge" against the powerful eldar t1 the way I used to with chaos. There used to be a window of time where you could push back at an eldar with vehicles and even out the game. This window has been seamlessly shut with the brightlance upgrade.

5) Dark reapers/Fire dragons.
-countering my t2 options faster and cheaper than I can even build them.

6) Warp throw.
-Do I really need to explain the aggravation this wargear causes? It hasn't changed, so technically I shouldn't be listing it, but how could I not? This thing completely prevents any static defense of a shrine or w/e.

7) Wraithlord upgraded with brightlance
-This upgrade is now fotm. The wraithlord suffers now damage penalty to melee and still does splash. The wraithlord moves faster than the other heavies. Its just too much really. The range of this brightlance pretty much forces chaos to commit to a battle completely if a dreadnaught is involved (which often is the case).

8) Immolater cost reduction to 100-25
-I agree with this cost reduction. It does however, make using heretics against the warlock or his army, that much more problematic.

Keep in mind now that I have only listed things on the warlock side of the spectrum that affect this matchup greatly. There are also a ton of things that have changed on the chaos side, and many of them do not help this matchup either.

just my 2 cents:

1) yeap, MWB is strong. at least it's 35 power.
2) having weapon knockback on the shield seems fair. all other shield (except TM) grants this. the shield limits the warlock's utility, so it's a doubled sided sword anyways.
3) agreed. however, doesn't synergize with champion's robe, and your WL's not doing anything for the duration (it's not like it's a FS not doing anything)
4) chaos got raptors and bloodletters now do passive leap. the matchup may have changed because of the brightlance upgrade, this fact doesn't necessarily make the matchup unbalanced.
5) prioritizing getting those units out can get the eldar player in a bad spot, but dark reapers are quite good. however, fire dragons are somewhat of a necessity, especially against something like sorc + kdread: wraithlord can't do anything, warp spiders are not cost effective with tcsm, banshees can't do much to kdread, and brightlance dies from sigil. in retail, i've played countless practice games against chaos libby, and i literally had to stall out with warp spiders and go T3 to counter the sorc kdread. it was just not possible with T2 arsenal that eldar had in retail. all i could do was just hit the supporting army and be on equal footing on the tech. and now, you can actually counter kdread in T2.
6) agreed. however, doesn't synergize with champion's robe.
7) brightlance without fotm was just not good. this is a welcomed change.
8) agreed. however, doesn't synergize with champion's robe.

EDIT: forgot to mention this point. wraithlord is not faster than other heavy walkers. they are all speed 4.5.

[Tex]

4) chaos got raptors and bloodletters now do passive leap. the matchup may have changed because of the brightlance upgrade, this fact doesn't necessarily make the matchup unbalanced.

Okay what?

Raptors are not in a good spot and I, along with just about every other person who can play chaos at a decent or better level, would be loathe to build them against eldar.

Bloodletters now have a passive leap! Wonderful! They also now do power_melee damage which means you can't counter wraithlords, falcons or fire prisms with them!

I honestly can't believe you think that the shurikan being able to upgrade to a brightlance (and getting a very useful ability - under used albeit - as well) doesn't change the balance of this matchup. I don't want to get all high and mighty, but honestly, I have known the eldar vs chaos matchup, especially vs warlock, inside and out for a long ass time. Please take my word for this: THE BRIGHTLANCE HAS CHANGED EVERYTHING!