Tex wrote:So? Destructor makes warlock vs chaos hard? It always has done that. I don't think that is the main issue at all. (sorry if I am repeating anything, I didn't have time to read the whole thread)
Here are my main issues with warlock vs chaos and why it has become so incredibly one sided. Keep in mind destructor hasn't changed at all, and that's why it isn't the root of this problem in any way.
1) MWB is almost uncounterable by chaos T1
-Ranged stance absolutely robs the sorc and pc of any presence. Chaos lord is eaten alive by the melee. Tics cant touch him, he can even charge down a havok because of the knockback shot right before his jump, and getting 2x CSM vs eldar is a very slippery slope when trying to counter a single entity with mass range fire. (I guess I should list that the changes made to this thing are very sutble. First, it no longer does friendly damage with its special, and second, the warlock fires a quick knockback bolt right before his combat leap)
2) Champions robe now provides weapon_knockback immunity.
-I'm not saying its a bad change, other shields provide the same protection. It does however change the fact that kill the weak can no longer interrupt the warlock when he is charging at your CSM or a havok that needs to setup.
3) Channeling runes are crazy and completely eliminate the damage your banshee counter can do (AC tics)
-If you haven't used channeling runes against chaos, your are truly foolish.
4) ***This is the most important eldar change in elite that has altered this matchup*** Shurikan platform can now upgrade to brightlance.
-This change right here has completely ruined the use of bloodcrushers against eldar. It has also made it incredibly hard to "exact t2 revenge" against the powerful eldar t1 the way I used to with chaos. There used to be a window of time where you could push back at an eldar with vehicles and even out the game. This window has been seamlessly shut with the brightlance upgrade.
5) Dark reapers/Fire dragons.
-countering my t2 options faster and cheaper than I can even build them.
6) Warp throw.
-Do I really need to explain the aggravation this wargear causes? It hasn't changed, so technically I shouldn't be listing it, but how could I not? This thing completely prevents any static defense of a shrine or w/e.
7) Wraithlord upgraded with brightlance
-This upgrade is now fotm. The wraithlord suffers now damage penalty to melee and still does splash. The wraithlord moves faster than the other heavies. Its just too much really. The range of this brightlance pretty much forces chaos to commit to a battle completely if a dreadnaught is involved (which often is the case).
8) Immolater cost reduction to 100-25
-I agree with this cost reduction. It does however, make using heretics against the warlock or his army, that much more problematic.
Keep in mind now that I have only listed things on the warlock side of the spectrum that affect this matchup greatly. There are also a ton of things that have changed on the chaos side, and many of them do not help this matchup either.
just my 2 cents:
1) yeap, MWB is strong. at least it's 35 power.
2) having weapon knockback on the shield seems fair. all other shield (except TM) grants this. the shield limits the warlock's utility, so it's a doubled sided sword anyways.
3) agreed. however, doesn't synergize with champion's robe, and your WL's not doing anything for the duration (it's not like it's a FS not doing anything)
4) chaos got raptors and bloodletters now do passive leap. the matchup may have changed because of the brightlance upgrade, this fact doesn't necessarily make the matchup unbalanced.
5) prioritizing getting those units out can get the eldar player in a bad spot, but dark reapers are quite good. however, fire dragons are somewhat of a necessity, especially against something like sorc + kdread: wraithlord can't do anything, warp spiders are not cost effective with tcsm, banshees can't do much to kdread, and brightlance dies from sigil. in retail, i've played countless practice games against chaos libby, and i literally had to stall out with warp spiders and go T3 to counter the sorc kdread. it was just not possible with T2 arsenal that eldar had in retail. all i could do was just hit the supporting army and be on equal footing on the tech. and now, you can actually counter kdread in T2.
6) agreed. however, doesn't synergize with champion's robe.
7) brightlance without fotm was just not good. this is a welcomed change.
8) agreed. however, doesn't synergize with champion's robe.
EDIT: forgot to mention this point. wraithlord is not faster than other heavy walkers. they are all speed 4.5.