Eldar detection and Destructor

[Dark Riku]

I pretty much agree with everything that Codex said.

Keep in mind that a destructor can miss due to terrain/elevation being herpyderpy.
And the ability isn't completely instant or you wouldn't be able to cancel it.
I wouldn't mind it getting the same treatment though as the Librarian smite.

But it's not as hopeless as you make it out to be Dance Commander.

Finally, Codex you forgot one boon of the DA warlock on elite. Namely the leap he now has. That thing is so useful when fighting other ranged units, and also provides a odd amount of utility. I hate that leap :S

He even had that leap in retail.
I find it very stupid, Like Dire Avengers aren't powerful enough already.

[Maestro Cretella]

Am I out of touch with the function of Rangers if I think they're less cost effective against Sluggas than against Scouts, or (Chaos/Loyalist) Space Marines? Cos that's all I was trying to say. You aren't suggesting Rangers are great against, say, Guardsmen, right? Cos, hey, if bleeding is all their purpose, they bleed the hell out of GM, even if at terribly inefficient rate.

(Pardon me the sarcasm, I'm out of touch with good manners momentarily).

Rangers are indeed extremely effective and cost effective against Space Marines, are borderline are overpowered against scouts, and are one of the many reasons Eldar generally has an advantage over SM. Rangers aren't that great against guardsmen, but if you're in any way suggesting that sniping slugga/shoota models is a waste, you are absolutely out of touch with something, or at the very least simply haven't been on the Ork end of it enough.

[caralimon]

...

Rangers are indeed extremely effective and cost effective against Space Marines, are borderline are overpowered against scouts, and are one of the many reasons Eldar generally has an advantage over SM. Rangers aren't that great against guardsmen, but if you're in any way suggesting that sniping slugga/shoota models is a waste, you are absolutely out of touch with something, or at the very least simply haven't been on the Ork end of it enough.

Either I'm terrible at explaning myself (most probably this since English isn't my first language), or you have an extrange fixation on twisting my words.

I didn't suggest sniping Sluggas/Shootas was a waste, I merely pointed out sniping lower HP models is less efficient, than higher HP ones such as Scouts, (C)SMs or Sentinels as Codex brought up. Therefore, there might be better Squad choices against low HP per model armies such as LA Nids.

But since you keep pressing the matter, you must be right, I must be absolutely out of touch with something and have missed how borderline OP Rangers are. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

[Nurland]

Caralimon: I wouldn't say you are terrible at explaining yourself but there is quite a lot of room for improvement in that sector. I personally didn't feel like I quite understood your latest post on the topic. And I don't think Meister Cretella was trying to twist your words or be offensive.

And sniping sluggas/shootas is maybe less effective than sniping shees/scouts/dire avengers but it is about on par with sniping tacs and csm since you usually need to get three or shots in before you drop a tact/csm and you do kill a slugga/shoota with every shot reliably (until they get their squad leaders).

And on a sidenote, being sarcastic online with people who do not actually know you is pretty hard to pull of successfully as it leaves more room for misunderstandings.

[Asmon]

Giving detection to DA's WL sounds like a nonsense. Eldar detection issue mostly lies in T1.

Dodging destructor with tics is like the easiest thing to do in the whole game. It requires that you press one key. Oooh, the challenge... Nubs, should I add.

Also, destructor does not scale, is only efficient in a few Mu, suffers from FoF ranged damage reduction, and is not as easy to land as Smite (good lord Ace how could you).

But it damages your poor tics? Oh, poor little expensive and weak squad.

Make it scale. Make it ignore cover. And retreat like flesh hook (oh, actually no, that's op). Then you might be in a position where its damage vs tics could be lowered.

[Maestro Cretella]

Either I'm terrible at explaning myself (most probably this since English isn't my first language), or you have an extrange fixation on twisting my words.

I didn't suggest sniping Sluggas/Shootas was a waste, I merely pointed out sniping lower HP models is less efficient, than higher HP ones such as Scouts, (C)SMs or Sentinels as Codex brought up. Therefore, there might be better Squad choices against low HP per model armies such as LA Nids.

But since you keep pressing the matter, you must be right, I must be absolutely out of touch with something and have missed how borderline OP Rangers are. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

I certainly can't claim that you meant to say anything other than what you really meant to say. However, your choice of words does make it seem like you spend way more time on the using end of rangers, and much less time, if any, on the receiving end. Getting bled by rangers as Orks is a terrible thing to deal with, regardless of a 160 damage shot being overkill on models with 100 and 125 hp respectively. What you are pointing out is just the difference between a unit that rangers are effective against (shootas and sluggas) and a unit that rangers overperform against (scouts)

[Dark Riku]

Dodging destructor with tics is like the easiest thing to do in the whole game. It requires that you press one key. Oooh, the challenge... Nubs, should I add.

Also, destructor does not scale, is only efficient in a few Mu, suffers from FoF ranged damage reduction, and is not as easy to land as Smite (good lord Ace how could you).

Retreating isn't something you wanna do vs Eldar. Bye bye map control.

How is smite easier to hit than destructor? They are the same in that regard...

[Torpid]

Dodging destructor with tics is like the easiest thing to do in the whole game. It requires that you press one key. Oooh, the challenge... Nubs, should I add.

Also, destructor does not scale, is only efficient in a few Mu, suffers from FoF ranged damage reduction, and is not as easy to land as Smite (good lord Ace how could you).

Retreating isn't something you wanna do vs Eldar. Bye bye map control.

How is smite easier to hit than destructor? They are the same in that regard...

No, in fact it's easier to land than smite considering it procs instantly whereas smite procs on four seperate occasions.

[Asmon]

Retreating isn't something you wanna do vs Eldar. Bye bye map control.

How is smite easier to hit than destructor? They are the same in that regard...

You're using the wrong key riku. Try again.

Smite has much larger AoE, does not suffer from terrain nor cover and is therefore impossible to miss.

[Dark Riku]

You're using the wrong key riku. Try again.

Smite has much larger AoE, does not suffer from terrain nor cover and is therefore impossible to miss.

Yeah cuz pressing stop works? Maybe you wanna fucking tell us the ow so powerful button instead of acting so smug.

WHAT?! If you fake a movement smite is useless as it can't be canceled.

Elderp bias all over the place.

[Nurland]

Calm down a bit guys.

[JuhwannX]

Yeah, we need to kinda not get into the whole name calling thing. Then we'll all look worse than Kvek

[Kvek]

Smite has much larger AoE, does not suffer from terrain nor cover and is therefore impossible to miss.

Smite is t2, and costs 350/60 and was nerfed pretty hardly.

Dodging destructor with tics is like the easiest thing to do in the whole game. It requires that you press one key. Oooh, the challenge... Nubs, should I add.

Of course retreat your tics so you have even lower chance against shees.

[caralimon]

...

I certainly can't claim that you meant to say anything other than what you really meant to say. However, your choice of words does make it seem like you spend way more time on the using end of rangers, and much less time, if any, on the receiving end. Getting bled by rangers as Orks is a terrible thing to deal with, regardless of a 160 damage shot being overkill on models with 100 and 125 hp respectively. What you are pointing out is just the difference between a unit that rangers are effective against (shootas and sluggas) and a unit that rangers overperform against (scouts)

You -could- stop making assumptions about other players (in this case, me) experience with or against a Squad/faction. It's uncalled for, a little bit disrespectful and brings nothing constructive to the table in the discussion of the matter in question (just like this post, for which I apologize).

I don't need to justify myself, but I play almost equally Eldar, SM and Orks, mostly in Retail, where Rangers are arguably "stronger" than in Elite so... yeah.

If you (legitimately) think Rangers are an overperforming squad, then state it clearly, hell, make a thread about it, maybe it can improve the Mod balance even further. But don't be guessing around my posts in this topic as a way to put your point accross.

[Ace of Swords]

^

Code: Select all

    Global value increased from 10 to 13
    Build time increased from 21 to 32 seconds
    Long rifle range decreased from 65 to 55
    Pathfinder Gear cost decreased from 55/15 to 50/10
    Pathfinder Gear now increases weapon range by 10
    Kinetic Pulse now also does 20 piercing damage in the 5 radius
    Kinetic Pulse cooldown increased from 75 to 80 seconds
    Infiltrate energy drain decreased from 1.5 to 1 per second


They have been buffed overall, i don't see how they perform better in retail.

Giving detection to DA's WL sounds like a nonsense. Eldar detection issue mostly lies in T1.

The problem is when you don't really want rangers in t1, but later on in the game you are forced to get them to babysit a vehicle or just to move around spotting bombs/gates and so on, basically this should give more viability to builds that are not just 1 1 1 1.

So I can understand why the formation is so tight, but there are some intervening game mechanics that are being a tad of a nuissance in conjunction with one another if the disperse formation is to be changed.

Isn't it possible to have Tics having a spread formation when normally moving/standing still and use their usually formation when chasing/charging, otherwise, to always keep a spread out formation would it be possible to have tics have somekind of 'proximity mine-thing' like, instead of a random heretic the one nearer to an enemy unit would blowup when doomblast is used.

Otherwise, one could look for alternatives in possibly tier 2.

Yeah, it doesn't really matter which squad as it, it's just that the DA warlock made the most sense in a fluff-gameplay wise but at the same time it could be too good.

[Asmon]

Smite is t2, and costs 350/60 and was nerfed pretty hardly.

Is any of these things making it harder to hit than Destructor? That was my point.

Of course retreat your tics so you have even lower chance against shees.

Riku's already tried this key. Pick a new one.

[Kvek]

Asmon go and play a few games as Chaos vs WL i want to see what you will think after that.

[FiSH]

pretty sure the key asmon is referring to is "w," it is indeed a pretty good one for dodging destructor...

[Kvek]

of course activate the worship, just beacause you see a warlock

[FiSH]

nono, if you worship as soon as the mana drops on the warlock, you can actually take almost no damage from destructor. it just requires good awareness.
by stating the above, i do not mean that destructor is underpowered, or am not making any point about balance, i am merely stating a fact.

[Kvek]

Well you are right.

[Ace of Swords]

nono, if you worship as soon as the mana drops on the warlock, you can actually take almost no damage from destructor. it just requires good awareness.
by stating the above, i do not mean that destructor is underpowered, or am not making any point about balance, i am merely stating a fact.

I tried that and failed, it's like a 0.00000001 reaction time which can be easily achivied if you look only on tics 24/7 and if you only have 1 tics squad, the time it takes to switch to the tics and press the keybind is already enough for the destructor to do full damage to the tics, even if they start their animation there is a slight delay and get full damage.

[Vapor]

nono, if you worship as soon as the mana drops on the warlock, you can actually take almost no damage from destructor. it just requires good awareness.
by stating the above, i do not mean that destructor is underpowered, or am not making any point about balance, i am merely stating a fact.

I tried that and failed, it's like a 0.00000001 reaction time which can be easily achivied if you look only on tics 24/7 and if you only have 1 tics squad

then the Warlock will just cancel the destructor lolz

[FiSH]

yea, it's pretty hard to dodge the destructor with the worship. i practice quite often with chaos libby, and he's only been able to do it once this whole time lol

[Asmon]

I tried that and failed, it's like a 0.00000001 reaction time which can be easily achivied if you look only on tics 24/7 and if you only have 1 tics squad, the time it takes to switch to the tics and press the keybind is already enough for the destructor to do full damage to the tics, even if they start their animation there is a slight delay and get full damage.

You

Have

Failed.

[Nurland]

It is possible to dodge destructor with worship like grenades but dodging a destructor is a lot harder. It requires very good awareness as the reaction time is short. You pretty much need to have you finger on the trigger all the time expecting a destructor. If you have two heretics like most people against Luldar... Well then you pretty much need to worship both if the other one is not out of range.
It is naturally easier and quite possible to pull off early game as there is not so much stuff going on.
I think I am pretty fine with how the destructor is now though it does annoy the fuck out of me sometimes. And no. Dodging it is not the easiest thing in the world Asmon. At least that is my honest opinion. We could have someone more skilled Kayossss player like for example Libby, Cael or Tex give their opinion on the subject though.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Seriously, Asmon, it's very funny to use a no-cast instant travel ability and see how one vanilla Heretics squad lose 80% of his HP. Or simply instant wipe the squad with Kinetic pulse + Destructor. But breaks (even more) the Chaos - Eldar matchup.

[Torpid]

Seriously, Asmon, it's very funny to use a no-cast instant travel ability and see how one vanilla Heretics squad lose 80% of his HP. Or simply instant wipe the squad with Kinetic pulse + Destructor. But breaks (even more) the Chaos - Eldar matchup.

What exactly do you mean by breaks even more? Chaos are fine and dandy vs eldar without the warlock's intervention.

[Chaos Librarian]

Asmon, you're kidding yourself if you think avoiding destructor with tics is as easy as pressing w. Tics simply do not spread fast enough when worshipping enough to avoid destructor, not to mention a) warlock can cancel it b) if guardians are around they will wreck the tic squad in those few seconds while it worships and unworships to get back into combat. Pressing w works for avoiding slower moving spells such as doombolts and grenades but not for destructors. I'm sorry but facts are facts.

Having said that, I don't think warlock vs. CS is a broken match up and I don't see the need to nerf the destructor, especially since it really is only an issue with tics. Even then there are ways around it. I would recommend pretty much always getting havoks asap, often times as your first power purchase, when facing warlock as CS. Keep your tics with your havoks for both infil and as a banshee flank deterrant. Try to keep one of your tics always infiltrated and the other worshipping and avoid engaging with them (feel free to doomblast then disengage if necessary though) until the warlock is gone/forced off by havoks. In short, it's hard to dodge destructors with tics so never give him a chance to use it in the first place. Warlock, without ranger support, suffers against suppression in tier 1, even with his tanky build, and I would say telesorc with flame sword supported by havoks supported by tics is a pretty good way to deal with ranger supported tanky warlock in tier 1.

Now, I understand that you won't have havoks for the first engagement, so for the first engagement I recommend grouping up your two tics together so that you can infil one of your tics if you see a destructor coming.

[Lulgrim]

I have to say I mained Lul-lock for a year or something between CR/Ret and I can't remember anyone actually dodging a Lolstructor with Worship during that time. Dodging it is a bit like baiting KtW, you kind of have to guess when it's coming, if you wait for the energy bar to drop before moving the unit will probably react too late. You sort of zigzag while the WL keeps targeting and canceling Destro and try to fatigue him into "fuck it I'll shoot it here, other things to do".

I did wipe the occasional 1st engagement Tic though (let them take the 20% fire from the Gu before using the first Destructor and whoops). Plasma damage might not be bad in fact, it wouldn't be so weak against Spess for example, although Nid/Ork performance would suffer for it...