Eldar detection and Destructor

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Ace of Swords
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Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Ace of Swords » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 6:47 pm

-Detection

Anyone finds the eldar very lacking detection-wise? I mean rangers are amazing in many and many aspects and they are extremely good in many MUs but the fact that they are a 'setup team' makes them quite vulnerable and not very movable, thus you can't really move them all over the map searching for mines/explosive/gates, aswell since they are the only form of detection for the eldar in a MU like eldar vs IG they don't perform that well and their role would be to mostly babysit the falcon or other vehicles of the eldar.

So would it be too good if the warlocks of the Dire Avenger squads had detection? or maybe some other squad/squad leader?

-Destructor

This ability changes the MU of chaos vs eldar too much in favor of the eldar, why? because a single shot does around 80% of an heretic's squad healt bar instantly, and quite often wipes them if they don't have full HP, it isn't hard to use at all, it's extremely fast, I would say undodgeable without luck and can be cancelled how many times you want to adjust the shot, it would be nice if this ability was modified so that it did abit less damage to them, if that's not possible this ability should get the same treatment of the Librarian's smite, as in when you cast the ability it can be cancelled but it will go on CD without doing any damage.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby FiSH » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 7:02 pm

+1 about detection. all other races either have multiple detection options (IG/nids) or have detection as an upgrade to the core units (all other races but eldar and the 2 mentioned above). if something like WL on the DA squads get detection, the radius should be 30.
as for the ranger detection range, i'd love to see it get a slight buff, say radius 5. some strategies - such as infiltrated havok from sorc - are tough to deal with, since the detection range is shorter than the havok firing range. since eldar doesn't have a jump troop, such strategies can be especially difficult.

somewhat agree on the destructor issue, but that will put the warlock at a disadvantage in all matchups. i think another way to approach the problem may be to spread the heretics. as we all know, they bunch up horribly well and take a lot of AOE damage, and are very vulnerable to retreat grenades - whereas many other squads spread more, and are hard to wipe with a single grenade.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Kvek » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 7:04 pm

I think that eldar need an another way to detect than rangers/farsight.
as eldar vs LA you really can't get Rangers.
And using 35 red to detect a lictor alpha isn't a great choice, considering he will counter the setup team even without infiltration
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Kvek » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 7:07 pm

Lower the damage, Change the damage-type so it does bonus to HI ?

(Fish cmon u just said what i wanted to say 3 seconds before i did :p)
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Ace of Swords » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 7:41 pm

somewhat agree on the destructor issue, but that will put the warlock at a disadvantage in all matchups. i think another way to approach the problem may be to spread the heretics. as we all know, they bunch up horribly well and take a lot of AOE damage, and are very vulnerable to retreat grenades - whereas many other squads spread more, and are hard to wipe with a single grenade.


This might be a good idea, if it's possible to implement, but still i'd like to see destructor abit harder to use, as i said, it's very fast and you can cancel it very quickly and without any ripercussion.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Lag » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 7:50 pm

Dire Avengers with detection = another Superunit like Shootas.
I agree about Destructor. The only problem is that that ability either overperforms or underperforms. Finding some common ground would be best, like reducing damage but ignoring cover or something like that.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby FiSH » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 7:59 pm

correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure destructor ignores cover already, it does grenade damage and travels to the location instantly (unlike doombolt that gets caught in terrain), although it is affected by elevation.
having detection on DA exarch doesn't make them superunits, exarch is T2. besides, ranger models die too easily and cost too much (especially in LA matchup like Kvek mentioned, ranger model losses are inevitable with the fleshhook in the current state, and it hurts) whereas all other detectors basically don't die/ are cheaper to reinforce, with the exception of catachans, and catas don't bleed, right? :lol:
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Torpid » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 9:07 pm

Lag wrote:Dire Avengers with detection = another Superunit like Shootas.
I agree about Destructor. The only problem is that that ability either overperforms or underperforms. Finding some common ground would be best, like reducing damage but ignoring cover or something like that.


Regarding DA, not if they require the warlock for detection hence it's t2. Still that isn't going to help solce the imba LA/CS vs eldar MU. Still, I do fear for the inq vs eldar MU without having infiltration/ forcing them to get rangers...

I agree on destructor for sure. It makes the eldar vs chaos MU so much easier it's ridiculous.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby FiSH » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 9:31 pm

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Still that isn't going to help solce the imba LA/CS vs eldar MU.

true, but it's much harder to keep rangers alive in T2, and their importance on the battlefield in T2 is greatly diminished. Eldar T1.5 units had bad scalability, and i welcome to changes made to shuri, and would like to see some love for detection role as well.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 9:57 pm

I agree. Heretics should have a more disperse formation.

Other possibility is change the Destructor damage from grenade to plasma.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Codex » Mon 08 Jul, 2013 1:12 am

Destructor is definitely modified by cover. You will find it does almost no damage if Green cover is applied.

I think people underestimate how well rangers scale. The very fact that they have a detection range that is superior to all other detectors means that with good micro they never should be detected at all unless the player doesn't mind that being the case.

Their role may change over the course of the game, in accordance with what is already on the field for both players. There are quite a few Eldar units that have range much higher than their natural sight (e.g. D-Cannon, Fire Prism, Weapons teams), and other units that seriously benefit from the intelligence that they acquire (e.g. for vehicle security, moving units out of the way before they get jumped on...). As a result, there's an argument to be made for saying that even Rangers sat ahead of the position, infiltrated and not even shooting, allowing a Fire Prism to fire at max range means that they have served a solid late game role.

Imo, rangers are really quite flexible units whose role should not only be determined by the state of the game, but also particularly on their levels. Levelled Rangers are far more useful, able to apply fantastic support/combo abilities like kinetic pulse, holofield more readily without compromising their own safety. The way I like to use them I try to get at least a level and a half of xp before the vehicles come out and Rangers can't really be used to shoot whenever you want.

So early game, try to pick off as much as possible and use a shuriken to secure their position, and as the game goes later, transition them into a more general support role, scouting and wearing down the enemy formation before the actual engagement, but never shooting unless you know it's safe to do so or you were planning on retreating anyway (e.g. need to heal up).

Re: Rangers vs LA.

In the end it's a necessity to get Rangers against a LA. Unless you're happy to let him wreak havoc in your lines. I think 1-1-1-1 is fantastic against LA as well, considering you can just deal with the LA like ASM, and try to isolate him by resetting up your shuriken. Kinetic pulse is also a godsend.

In the end, if he flesh hooks one model away, so what? I usually run 2/3 on my rangers anyway. If I'm not feeling secure about them I'll reinforce them to 3/3, but still he shouldn't be able to wipe the squad if you protect your rangers well.
Last edited by Codex on Mon 08 Jul, 2013 2:18 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Vapor » Mon 08 Jul, 2013 2:12 am

I think if you give detection to another eldar unit, the radius would have to be 15 (like for sentinels). I mean rangers are so awesome as a detector as it stands that to give eldar a new full-range detector would just make things ridiculous for heroes that rely on infiltration.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Codex » Mon 08 Jul, 2013 2:15 am

15 detection range is barely anything though. Nobody uses Sentinels as their primary detector; you would have to question the utility of getting this detector.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Caeltos » Mon 08 Jul, 2013 4:05 am

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:I agree. Heretics should have a more disperse formation.

Other possibility is change the Destructor damage from grenade to plasma.


The problem with that is Doomblast tho. The more disperse, the more likehood of a model not exploding the designated target. Espicially if you're giving chase, or desperately need to lock something down. (Suppress upon engage)

So I can understand why the formation is so tight, but there are some intervening game mechanics that are being a tad of a nuissance in conjunction with one another if the disperse formation is to be changed.

TL;DR version ( :mrgreen: )
Spread formation = Doomblast will most likely become more unreliable. Improves general durability against Area of Effect sources.

Tight Formation = Doomblast becomes/is more reliable. However, vulnerable to area of effect type of abilities/attacks.

Dire Avenger Exarch getting detection, I'm not so sure. But I wouldn't rule it out even. It's important to consider how the invisible vs eldar matchups are playing out, and of course. Taking into consideration with some misc. thoughts in mind, like GK's & the alike how it would generally effect the whole-matchup. Lots of speculations to be made, and theorycrafting en-masse.

Otherwise, one could look for alternatives in possibly tier 2. (Just a food for thought). I had the suggestion and general idea for the Warlock Channeling Runes (Altho, this never made it in) to actually grant temporarily detection, but people didn't like it. :mrgreen:. It was possibly abit of a shoe-horn in, but there's quite a popularity of Warlock, compared to the likes of Farseer/WSE, but I'd say Far Sight is just tad underused in terms of how much actual map vision you actually get, it was quite substantially buffed afterall to make it a quite worthwile global to pop if you've got the red for it. It does cover alot of ground. :D
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Mon 08 Jul, 2013 4:08 am

rangers can see further than weapons teams can shoot but they detect 4 range less. that said, you shouldn't really have any issues because heretics detect at range 30, 10 less than rangers.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby caralimon » Mon 08 Jul, 2013 6:34 am

I don't know, Eldar vs LA/CS or even Kommando Nob seems like a handicapped game from the start to me. Sure, Rangers are amazing and all, but being forced to buy them in certain matchups looks like a little victory already for the opposing player.

Their detectors role is itself a bit contradictory, since as long range snipers, they're supposed to stay behind their army picking models off from a far. But in those matchups, you kinda want them near the frontlines to detect any possible infiltrators, which in turn forces you to spend another 10 power to infiltrate them if you want to keep them "safer". There's another victory for LA/CS/KNob in my eyes.

Then there's the fact that every Rangers shot against Hormas, Termas, Heretics, Sluggas (and to a lesser extent Shootas) or Heroes is a half-wasted shot. Sure, you're picking off models, but up to half the damage per shot (160) is being wasted, due to low health per model. In case you're using them to counter LA, you're most likely to get quite a few shots at ¿him? with much lower damage (0.6 multiplier against heroes =96 instead of 160).

I once thought of Rangers as a bit cheaper squad (250/20?) with lower damage per shot (100?) and a cheap upgrade (50/10?) to bring it to its current state, but maybe they'd be too versatile then. Or maybe give em a cheap upgrade to lower their damage and cooldown hence increasing DPS against low HP armies... Just some thoughts, don't grab my throat....

---

I don't think giving detection to the Avengers Exarch is entirely unreasonable, after all it isn't such a common or powerful upgrade at T2. It wouldn't solve the LA wtfbleeding potential in T1 against eldar, but it could help in other "unfair" scenarios such as infiltrated Sluggas wiping unsuspecting squads in a matter of seconds, later into the game.

Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Kvek » Mon 08 Jul, 2013 8:34 am

I see the problem only vs LA.
And how is Eldar vs CS handicapped game for Eldar ?
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Torpid » Mon 08 Jul, 2013 1:57 pm

Kvek wrote:I see the problem only vs LA.
And how is Eldar vs CS handicapped game for Eldar ?


Because eldar lack the ability to detect from a close range the sorceror would usually go tics, csm, tics, havocs, flame sword. The sorceror can then do the one thing any eldar player hates - control the eldar. He lures them into infiltrated havocs and doombolts, forcing off squads nearly instantly. So you obviously need to get detection but as mentioned before the detection range of rangers is smaller than the attack range of havocs, so you need rangers infiltration. Basically eldar have to spend a tonne of power early on to compete and they fall behind quick unless chaos let's them get map control by not pressuring their gens. Sigiling double heretics into retreat paths is also particularly nasty to eldar who are so fragile. Then guardian builds are countered by csm+doombolts/havocs, tics detect rangers, sigil/vestments counters shurikens unless he gets two, but in which case you just make one tic squad grenade launchers. Coruscating flame AC tics beat the shees, so you are forced to play really defensively and then lose the tech race...

And I forgot about Knob, he does indeed kick eldar's ass, although I do like using rangers vs orks.

Regarding locks though, isn't the problem in t1 not t2? VS LA/CS I would vouch that 90% of the time the game is decided by t2 because of the lack of detection bar rangers in t1.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Lag » Mon 08 Jul, 2013 3:23 pm

Improvised Explosives can one-shot Banshees/DA.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Maestro Cretella » Mon 08 Jul, 2013 7:17 pm

caralimon wrote:Then there's the fact that every Rangers shot against Hormas, Termas, Heretics, Sluggas (and to a lesser extent Shootas) or Heroes is a half-wasted shot. Sure, you're picking off models, but up to half the damage per shot (160) is being wasted, due to low health per model. In case you're using them to counter LA, you're most likely to get quite a few shots at ¿him? with much lower damage (0.6 multiplier against heroes =96 instead of 160).

Then don't shoot the Hormagaunts, Termagants and Heretics, and target the Warriors, Raveners, Chaos Space Marines and Havocs instead. There was a time, definitely before the introduction of Raptors, when snipers had actually been considered a little too good against Chaos. If you think ranger shots are in any sense wasted against Sluggas and Shootas you are out of touch with the function of rangers in the first place. The purpose of a sniper is to bleed, and this is something it does incredibly well against those two squads.
That Torpid Gamer wrote:Because eldar lack the ability to detect from a close range the sorceror would usually go tics, csm, tics, havocs, flame sword. The sorceror can then do the one thing any eldar player hates - control the eldar. He lures them into infiltrated havocs and doombolts, forcing off squads nearly instantly. So you obviously need to get detection but as mentioned before the detection range of rangers is smaller than the attack range of havocs, so you need rangers infiltration. Basically eldar have to spend a tonne of power early on to compete and they fall behind quick unless chaos let's them get map control by not pressuring their gens. Sigiling double heretics into retreat paths is also particularly nasty to eldar who are so fragile. Then guardian builds are countered by csm+doombolts/havocs, tics detect rangers, sigil/vestments counters shurikens unless he gets two, but in which case you just make one tic squad grenade launchers. Coruscating flame AC tics beat the shees, so you are forced to play really defensively and then lose the tech race...

Not quite. In this matchup, Chaos is not in the position to "let" the Eldar player get map control. Eldar is going to have map control by default because of their inherent mobility advantage. As Chaos, unless you are just outplaying your opponent, you can't reasonably expect to win on map control in tier 1 (especially against the WSE), particularly if you are bunching up most of your squads under Tzeentch worship, but frankly, you can't quite compete on map control even if you don't.

You're also leaving a lot of hero-specific things out of the picture. Taking into consideration the power cost of a wargear purchase like the Sword of Flame, Shees backed by Spirit Stones beat AC Tics, and Shees backed by Channeling Runes beat two squads of tics. I'm not saying these can't be countered, and in particular I know a very effective way of dealing with the latter, but I'm just trying to provide a more complete picture of things. The Warlock also has a particularly effective way of dealing with any kind of worship in the form of the Immolator blade. This is indeed another power purchase, and yes, Eldar has a very power intensive tier 1, and they've been that way at least for as long as Retribution - but they still do remarkably well considering that disadvantage.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby caralimon » Mon 08 Jul, 2013 8:48 pm

Maestro Cretella wrote:
caralimon wrote:...

Then don't shoot the Hormagaunts, Termagants and Heretics, and target the Warriors, Raveners, Chaos Space Marines and Havocs instead. There was a time, definitely before the introduction of Raptors, when snipers had actually been considered a little too good against Chaos. If you think ranger shots are in any sense wasted against Sluggas and Shootas you are out of touch with the function of rangers in the first place. The purpose of a sniper is to bleed, and this is something it does incredibly well against those two squads.


That's kind of the point in the LA vs Eldar MU. You're pretty much forced to get Rangers ASAP, that is 2nd buy/3rd squad, and even then it's kind of already too late. And at that point of the game you're either shooting at Hormas, Termas or the LA itself, no Raveners/WBs in the field yet, hence my comment of "wasting" shots.

Due to Nids army natural speed, using Rangers as Lictor Alpha "spotters" force you to get yet another power upgrade in T1 if you don't want to lose em in a blink of an eye, and even then they can't be everywhere at once.

Am I out of touch with the function of Rangers if I think they're less cost effective against Sluggas than against Scouts, or (Chaos/Loyalist) Space Marines? Cos that's all I was trying to say. You aren't suggesting Rangers are great against, say, Guardsmen, right? Cos, hey, if bleeding is all their purpose, they bleed the hell out of GM, even if at terribly inefficient rate.

(Pardon me the sarcasm, I'm out of touch with good manners momentarily).
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Torpid » Mon 08 Jul, 2013 9:41 pm

27 req a shot is very nice bleed, which is what sluggas/shootas provide. CSM are only 33 per shot, and that assumes you land the second shot to kill. Killing shootas is one of the most efficient uses for rangers, other than scouts, but against sm you have the asm risk, stormboys don't carry the same weight. Then there's the fact that every single shot is lowering their dps output.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby caralimon » Mon 08 Jul, 2013 9:58 pm

That's assuming full HP squads, and the Rangers not killing an alredy nearly dead squad member.

It's not all about killing models with their shots, it's also about wearing single models down before actual enagements so they fall down the first, etc. etc. Generally speaking, the higher HP per model, lesser is the chance of "wasting" a Rangers shot, so to speak. At any rate, we can generally agree Rangers are an overall better choice against SM than against, say IG, can we not? That was my point.

Enough with this side-topic from me.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby dance commander » Mon 08 Jul, 2013 11:05 pm

The fact remains that Rangers aren't viable against LA, every single flesh hook is a 50/5 free bleed, even assuming you keep the squad at 2/3, wich is common sense most of the time, you can't keep them at 2/3 the whole game right? It's not like hooks are a one time thing, especially with the reduced cooldown in elite, not to mention with the leap in t2 the LA can just outright kill them, leap, couple of hits, hook.
A solution would be reducing the flesh hook range (and not because of this match up, flesh hooks are just too strong right now), you cannot avoid the damn thing because you can't even see the LA with your rangers since he can use it from outside the detection range, and if you manage to see it and retreat it will still be too late (de-setup) because the hooks 140 sniper damage deals damage on retreat, such great rewards, for a starter point and click ability.
Also rangers are probably the least used detector in the game, aren't spotters getting detection because catachans aren't always used (and even then, they are used MUCH more than rangers)?

Destructor versus chaos is bollocks, the fact that the warlock can cancel it mid cast nullifies any attempts to bait it with your tics, it makes tics not a viable deterrent against banshees, most warlock players will wait for your tics to engage banshees during a battle to destructor them during the fight, resulting in an inevitable squad wipe, not even AC tics are saved, you just can't use them unless you keep them behind in worship, and (especially in the first engagements) it's not something you can afford, as if merciless witchblade or immolator are not enough to think about when using your tics.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 09 Jul, 2013 12:20 am

dance commander wrote:The fact remains that Rangers aren't viable against LA, ....
This isn't even a fact. Mather of fact it's the entire opposite.
You need them to detect. They counter warriors very handily.
And help you a lot vs melee blobs with their kinetic shot.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Codex » Tue 09 Jul, 2013 12:36 am

Forgive the stupidly long post.

caralimon wrote:I don't know, Eldar vs LA/CS or even Kommando Nob seems like a handicapped game from the start to me. Sure, Rangers are amazing and all, but being forced to buy them in certain matchups looks like a little victory already for the opposing player.

Their detectors role is itself a bit contradictory, since as long range snipers, they're supposed to stay behind their army picking models off from a far. But in those matchups, you kinda want them near the frontlines to detect any possible infiltrators, which in turn forces you to spend another 10 power to infiltrate them if you want to keep them "safer". There's another victory for LA/CS/KNob in my eyes.

Then there's the fact that every Rangers shot against Hormas, Termas, Heretics, Sluggas (and to a lesser extent Shootas) or Heroes is a half-wasted shot. Sure, you're picking off models, but up to half the damage per shot (160) is being wasted, due to low health per model. In case you're using them to counter LA, you're most likely to get quite a few shots at ¿him? with much lower damage (0.6 multiplier against heroes =96 instead of 160).


But your positioning of your rangers is based on the state of the fight as it is. Look at it this way. Throughout history most military approaches have incorporated the use of skirmishers. Before the battle, they will wear away at the enemy formation, but as the main battle line meets main battle line, skirmishers would withdraw to the main formation and reposition themselves accordingly, as their role as skirmishers has completed.

Before engagements, Rangers are ALWAYS on point and ahead of the general formation, doing attrition and skirmishing (using infiltration if there is any risk of getting attacked), and as the fight threatens (which again they should know first thanks to their superior sight and detection range), they can withdraw and rejoin the formation, where they are safe. So you should always be able to detect the enemy by being proactive on the front lines, and once you know where they are you can start kiting the Rangers back to your main formation.

Sure when you attack GM, and hormas, the bleed is insignificant. But I have experimented a lot with 1-1-1-1 as Warlock and I can tell you it's very viable against LA, Knob and even IG.

In the end, with Rangers you need to develop a game sense for when to use their abilities, which seriously maximises their utility. You say that the Rangers need a 10 power upgrade to secure their safety, I would argue that with the range nerf without upgrade that Elite brings it's totally required for them anyway. Look at it this way, you'll bleed less with them, and you augment their incredible abilities with increased range, increased safety and holofield.

Kinetic pulse in particular is a great investment for the future. Early on it can be comboed with a grenade or destructor to attempt a squad wipe (both combined is absolutely terrifying in T1), and if the Rangers are treated well and survive into the later game it can be comboed with Autarch call-in for maximal devastation.

IG in particular is an interesting matchup for 1-1-1-1, but I usually go for 2 guardians instead of a banshee. The idea being that the kinetic pulse is there to combine with grenades, and the build doesn't have the weakness of justifying an artillery spotter squad by going 2 shurikens. During the skirmish phase, just keep pinging the sentinel or the commander. In particular it's great against Lord General with his retinue, which bleed significantly, but also I find it very useful against sentinels. With enough attrition it significantly hampers the IG T1 domination by reducing sentinel aggression (he's scared to run a half health sentinel into a possible shuriken cannon), as well as immobilising Guardsmen and putting them on repair duty instead of capping the map (which, thanks to the nerf to repair rate, is not bad. 16 seconds worth of repair time per shot). I probably wouldn't get rangers against 3 guardsmen 1 sentinel though (which toil sometimes does.) In general, I'd get 1 shuriken, and see if a ranger would complement the sitaution.
---

I don't think giving detection to the Avengers Exarch is entirely unreasonable, after all it isn't such a common or powerful upgrade at T2. It wouldn't solve the LA wtfbleeding potential in T1 against eldar, but it could help in other "unfair" scenarios such as infiltrated Sluggas wiping unsuspecting squads in a matter of seconds, later into the game.


How is GU Warlock upgrade not popular or powerful? It makes Guardians arguably the best scaling basic infantry in the game. They don't bleed, they have embolden grenades (for extra damage), they have ranged resist aura, they have shield, they have fleet of foot. If it isn't popular, it should be and was for much of retail meta. In retail, 65/15 for 2 population and almost no upkeep. *shudders*

The fact remains that Rangers aren't viable against LA, every single flesh hook is a 50/5 free bleed, even assuming you keep the squad at 2/3, wich is common sense most of the time, you can't keep them at 2/3 the whole game right? It's not like hooks are a one time thing, especially with the reduced cooldown in elite, not to mention with the leap in t2 the LA can just outright kill them, leap, couple of hits, hook.


I completely disagree that Rangers aren't viable against LA. In the end, played correctly with Hormagaunts backing up a flesh hook, you could grab and smack down a tac model np. In fact, ASM are pretty easy pickings as well, unless you're willing to use a jump to save the model. Losing a ranger model is really no big deal; in the grand scheme of things 50/5 is not so much for a long cd ability.

Against LA I'm generally happy to run around with 2/3, and finish a fight with 1/3 if the flesh hook is on cooldown etc. If you don't like playing risky, then reinforce consistently when the Rangers are not on duty. As I said, good Ranger use isn't just about keeping them active, it's about knowing when to shoot and when to give up space, when to scout and probe, when it's fighting time, and when it's downtime. I like to get the Rangers to use most of their energy before they retreat, and count that as downtime.

During this period you have to probably play more compact so that the LA can't pick off isolated units, and make sure to bodyguard your key units with Banshees. But I would hardly say Rangers have to run away the whole time. In general this is why I like to go with the 1-1-1-1 because the shuriken covers the Ranger and secures them while the Ranger is defending in depth and kiting towards the shuriken between shots.

Destructor versus chaos is bollocks, the fact that the warlock can cancel it mid cast nullifies any attempts to bait it with your tics, it makes tics not a viable deterrent against banshees, most warlock players will wait for your tics to engage banshees during a battle to destructor them during the fight, resulting in an inevitable squad wipe, not even AC tics are saved, you just can't use them unless you keep them behind in worship, and (especially in the first engagements) it's not something you can afford, as if merciless witchblade or immolator are not enough to think about when using your tics.


Inevitable wipe? If in your calculation, a destructor+ banshees> AC tics, I think your mistake is to completely commit to that fight. Yes, destructor is amazing against vanilla tics, but it doesn't suddenly make banshees instawipe everything. In the end, you still have doomblast. And in the end, if you know that a destructor is coming, you can:

a) try to manipulate the melee fight to happen in an area with cover surrounding it, making destructor far less potent, or
b) use heretics like light cavalry in Total war, i.e. charge, doomblast, kite away with the speed boost from melee charge. Rinse and repeat.

This is the most common way to make unupgraded melee heretics dominate unupgraded T1 melee squads that would nevertheless win if heretics didn't accomplish double doomblast. E.g. Banshees, sluggas with Waagh.

The reasoning is in general, the doomblast is their most significant source of anti-squad damage, and their melee, while good, often has to go up against melee resist auras. As a result you not only concede a lot less bleed, but you are able to control the banshees and range them down and use doomblast, which they have no resistance aura against.

As an added bonus, by using this technique it's harder for him to hit his destructor, and he has to micro trying to find a good opening to charge banshees in.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby dance commander » Tue 09 Jul, 2013 1:08 am

@Codex

It's obvious we will never agree on rangers, because if you condone something like the hook doing a 50/5 bleed in the manner I explained, we'll never reach an agreement on that, regarding heretics, I'm aware of everything you said, about running heretics in using doomblast etc.

If you read my post again, you'll see that what I was pointing out was what you cannot do against them because of destructor, and what you can't do, is using them as a fighting force in your unit composition, heretic kite using doomblast is not even always usable, if the warlock actually lands a destructor (wich is the whole point of the thread) you just can't use that, the enemy will just wait to pick off your next to death heretics with his gus, even more difficult if the banshees have scream, if you do that with heretics hit by destructor, you are not conceding "a lot less bleed", you're asking for a lot of bleed by gus or a squadwipe.

On a related note, AC heretics dying to shees with destructor support is a very real possibility, something I had to learn on my units, smart warlocks will wait just for the right time to land destructor in an engagement, too late for even doomblast to save the retreat.
Anyway it's not acceptable that an ability can completely shut down a squad this way, we're not even talking about only fighting, even moving around is a risk (because if you feint the warlock can simply cancel the destructor), and a destructor coming out of nowhere from the fog of war while he has vision with other units is something I wouldn't like to happen as often as it does.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Codex » Tue 09 Jul, 2013 1:14 am

To be honest, I'm glad when he flesh hooks my Rangers. I'd be far more annoyed if he flesh hooked my banshees and took them down to 4/5, they have far less game impact being down a model. The only case where I would consider flesh hooking a ranger is good is if it ensures a wipe.

Is there a possibility that the ability is too good rather than Rangers suck vs LA?

I still think you're using your heretics in too gutsy a fashion. It's always possible to go for 2 tics as well if you're concerned that he'll take your anti-melee out too fast, just don't blob them up. In the end you have to retreat earlier, a destructor on an AC tic is not that devastating. It's like if someone has Touch of Nurgle, Fleet of Foot, Veil of Time or any other mechanism to swing fights in their favour, you just have to retreat earlier.

If a destructor is coming out of fog of war, why are you leading with your fragile units? If heretics are your melee counterinitiate they belong at the rear of the formation.
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby dance commander » Tue 09 Jul, 2013 1:27 am

Never talked about "leading"

If you read again you'll notice I was talking about out of combat situations, moving around the map, when you are capping, especially in the early stages of the game you have no way of guessing the warlock position, it's always a lottery, you encountered those pesky gus trying to cap? Bam, destructor out of nowhere, now you'll have to retreat penalty a lot of bleed, wait for a not so short heal at base (you're very likely to not lose a single model to destructor, unless you got damaged previously) and he'll have free capping time on that side of the map, his commitment? A 40 energy ability with a 40 seconds cooldown you had no way to know was coming.

What are the alternatives? Pull back in fear of the warlock being there? And if you're wrong? He'll just be on the other side of the map pressuring your main force with his, the capping unit having done its job uncontested.

Let's not even talk about how not having your tics as a fighting force makes dealing with runes a nightmare, forcing you to go havocs and grenade tics and play the passive war because of a single piece of wargear, or go the risky way with NM.

Yes, there is a possibility that flesh hook is too good, as I said <<A solution would be reducing the flesh hook range (and not because of this match up, flesh hooks are just too strong right now)>>
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Re: Eldar detection and Destructor

Postby Torpid » Tue 09 Jul, 2013 1:39 am

dance commander wrote:Never talked about "leading"

now you'll have to retreat or suffer a lot of bleed or wait for a not so short heal at base (you're very likely to not lose a single model to destructor, unless you got damaged previously) and he'll have free capping time on that side of the map. His commitment? A 40 energy ability with a 40 seconds cooldown you had no way to know was coming.

What are the alternatives? Pull back in fear of the warlock being there? And if you're wrong? He'll just be on the other side of the map pressuring your main force with his, the capping unit having done its job uncontested.

A solution would be reducing the flesh hook range (and not because of this match up, flesh hooks are just too strong right now)


Exactly. The fact that the warlock has this sort of power straight out of the gate and also is such a mobile hero is very strong. This problem exasperates itself due to the mobility of eldar and immobility of chaos. Chaos rely heavily on tics, yet the warlock finds it so much easier than other heroes to wipe them or even force them off. Like Dance elaborated, playing it defensively against him doesn't work. You're chaos. You have to be aggressive else eldar is just going to take the entire map and wittle you down slowly.

How to fix the destructor is another question...

I also agree on the LA's FH being too powerful atm and the solution suggested here.

Finally, Codex you forgot one boon of the DA warlock on elite. Namely the leap he now has. That thing is so useful when fighting other ranged units, and also provides a odd amount of utility. I hate that leap :S
Last edited by Torpid on Tue 09 Jul, 2013 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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