Imperial Guard Discussion

[Osinski]

Gentlemen and other forum scum (just kidding),

Let's talk about IG. I'll be the first to admit I have very limited 1v1 experience but from what I can tell from casts and tournaments, IG isn't utilized very often. Based on my team game/2v2 experience, I think there is something amiss within the Imperial Guard ranks.

They have excellent ranged damage and decent staying power when it comes to straight forward shoot outs. I believe their weakness lies in T2 and perhaps more specifically Ogryn.

They have a lot of upgrades but it seems like in order to keep up with just about any match up, they need to spend heavily, especially in power. If you're playing well, this isn't so bad because in the process you get some really powerful squads.

So what are their best counter-melee options? I don't mean heavy weapons teams or disruption, I mean what do they have that can stick in a fight. Catachans are the sort of T1 answer to melee and Ogryn for T2. Catachans I personally still don't like because I think they're too soft. The recent fix helped them bleed a little more reliably but I can't seem to keep them in a fight for any length of time. Still, I see their utility, I just personally prefer spotters.

Ogryn I feel though either do really, really well, or are a total waste. When push comes to shove, they're a deeper investment than a dreadnought at nearly the same cost (including the bone head) and they bleed. I wonder how people would feel about reducing their damage and cost and increasing their models. This would make them more of a damage soak, and less of a direct threat. As I said, I think IG have excellent ranged damage. Their only real problem is tying up things like wraithguard or breaking through heavy defenses. Ogryn still seem to somehow take too much damage, bleed too much, and generally not do what (I think) they're intended to do.

Thoughts?

[Cheah18]

For a start, and I quote Torpid (who is way more educated here than I am anyway): IG have arguably one of the best T2s.

IG bleed far less than any other race. In tier 1 you can field more units at far less pop than other races. Take sm for example: 2 tacs and devs is like 1150 req. IIRC it is 42 pop (correct me if wrong but its something like that). Add the scouts too. However, 3gm w/ sarge and sent is 42 as well. That is 4 units the pop of 3. Not that 3gm and sent is sufficient by any means, but don't forget that that costs ZERO power too, whereas the devs cost 30. The GM bleed is SO DAMN small, especially when most of the enemy fire is absorbed by the sent under repair. It is not hard to out bleed the opponent in light of this.

IG are renowned for their anti melee. Throughout the match. catas are a phenomenal anti melee unit, not just a sort of answer. The commlord has his power sword (knockback) and the inq has crippling volley. The sent stomp too. Trying to melee rush IG early on is a foolish endeavour (I love it when someone goes banshees or triple sluggas or whatever).

Re. Catas squishiness. They are for counter initiation (in terms of anti melee). You sit them behind your line while the enemy rushes, and then poof explosive shot, bye bye melee unit. Even ASM (unless under apo) can't withstand this and it is often at the SM players expense to jump into blobbed gm if the catas are behind. I see and hear a lot of people using catas as a frontline unit and this should be avoided.

You are correct in your observation: Ogryn I feel though either do really, really well, or are a total waste. That is how a lot of units in this game (not wrongly) are. Like banshees etc. I don't think they need any changes. They really are very useful WHEN BOUGHT CORRECTLY. Though they bleed, unlike walkers, they can also retreat out of trouble, move faster, and have an ability which is just invaluable in some circumstances. Ogryns are one of those units that you shouldn't just buy because whatever. A player who purchases them at the wrong time should indeed suffer for it. Selection is an important part of this game. Ogryns do great vs WG provided the enemy doesnt have snare or Dark Reapers. If they do, then AK STs with inq assail, Commlord tank, or sniper rifle on LG are effective counters.

[Ven]

well IG have the best T1 anti melee, catachans, sent stomp, a well timed spotter shell, not to mention the inqs bolt pistols crippling volley. so IG really dont suffer from lack of anti melee. IG also has the best T1.5 unit for countering setup teams, spotters.

imo IG is the best race in most "fighty" situations.

HOWEVER, IG has many weaknesses that other races do not. the lack of melee in my opinion is a weakness, its an entire dynamic missing, i do however think that it is fine. IG already has the most cost efficient infantry squad, with mininmal bleed, with the best repair, which is the GM squad. another weakness is that IG rely heavily on its other squads in firefights, which leads them in a disadvantage in 1v1s. they cant split up and cap because none of their units are very good solo units (catachans being the only exception). this obviously means they IG has a good standing in teamgames, there is no reason to spread out and cap so they can just blob up as normal.

overall however, i think IG is fine. yes the T2 is power heavy, but the T1 is not. and because T1 is also generally not very req heavy then it means you can get some more gens up.

thats just my take on it anyway.

[Cheah18]

IG also has the best T1.5 unit for countering setup teams, spotters.

This I disagree with. Spotters are the best of a bad situation. I would much rather have a jump unit.

[Osinski]

For clarification too, I'm not talking about T1. I realize they do quite well in T1, especially with a lot of different units. Their problems lie in T2 I believe.

Using catas for counter initiation, they still seem to melt too quickly. As for the ogryn, the only times I've made them really effective seems to be when I really don't need them and it just happens to catch the enemy by surprise.

Wraithguard are exactly one situation where they really ought to be a counter but they can't hang. When does eldar not have a way to counter your ogryn?

I know the theoretical counters to things like wraithguard. You can use smoke shells, you can use your hero, assault kit storm troopers, but the theory always seems far from the practical.

And lastly, you cannot count the sentinel as part of the T2 army. They rarely, rarely last half way into T2. If your sent is really being effective, your opponent is going to prioritize it in T2.

If these counters worked reliably, don't you think we'd see more IG play? I've talked with several people and while maybe I can't put a finger on it, I know there is something wrong with the race. They just can't seem to compete most of the time. Of course there are times when the stars align and the plays work but it seems rare to me.

[Flo]

Sents should last into tier 3, provided the pathing gods smile on you. Properly managed, they are extremely annoying.

Here is quite an awesome game of IG vs eldar, maybe this helps you out? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTdd5Xj1RXA

[Atlas]

I very much agree that Ogryns are feast or famine. Really, the biggest problem isn't that they cost a lot or bleed but rather how cheap they are to counter. Just do the calculus in your head of what kinds of things completely shut down ogryns and how much they cost compared to the 550/115 cost of those ogryns + leader not factoring bleed. I think that's why they either run the table when the opponent doesn't have or can't get those counters or they do and ogryns are just dying horribly.

Sents are also just dead men walking in some matchups come T2. They can bully Chaos in T1 great but the second MoT CSM hit the field they just melt to those inferno bolts. Let's not even get started with eldar and wraithguard.

But you would think catachans would be almost an instant buy since they are probably the only unit that can actual handle 1v1 encounters,do your map control and cap and yet ppl seem to shy away from them. Why?

[bountyhunter571]

I agree with Torpid's statement that IG have the best T2 in the game. However, I think that they require a lot more micro than other races to be applied effectively, which I think is the "problem" here. When it comes to Ogryns, I think they are a lot more effective in 1v1 than in team games, since they can be used for flanks more often which negates their suppression immunity. The problem you are addressing here is that, in my opinion, IG has not such a proper linebreaker unit as other races do. I mean, a correctly placed manticore strike can act as a linebreaker, or flanking ogryns, or a chimera by just letting the guardsmen tank the damage. But they are all not that straight forward as the linebreakers of other races are. Another issue you might be addressing is the - in my opinion - lack of possible retreat kills due to the lack of melee options. And of course sentinels can be managed to last into t3, but in many of the matchups they won't be doing that, so there is at least one unit that you will almost certainly lose in t2. To address those issues, I proposed vehicle armour for the sentinel which has not received much appreciation here in the forum. Some other proposals were around, like making the Banewolf accessible to all commanders in the form of a T2 Hellhound tank and Elysian Droptroops allowing for retreat kills. Would Ogryns perform better if they were immune or at least less vulnerable to suppression and would it still be balanced?

[Cheah18]

With respect to all, and I will say I do not consider myself as one of the skilled players I am about to talk about, I think IG are one of the hardest-to-play-well races (as opposed to, say, chaos, whose simplicity and unit roster allows for better use at lower skills. However, IG do have a much higher skill cap. of course, the way this works isn't simple, but the idea is that IG require a player of high skill to really put them to proper use.

Osinki: I know the theoretical counters to things like wraithguard. You can use smoke shells, you can use your hero, assault kit storm troopers, but the theory always seems far from the practical.

This is close to the truth. However, replace the word practical with executable. Because a high level IG player will in fact be able to pull of these counters.

I can't add more to the discussion on catas other than to say simply that it requires better play to use them well. But I think that is the simple truth. Catas in the hands of competent IG players are a deadly and well-balanced unit. The same can be said for Ogryns.

IG's real problems lie in map control, and vs the apo and pc whose healing abiltiies reduce IG's attrition advantage and map control (due to enemy never leaving the field) significantly.

Its not that IG dont work. Its that they dont work with inexperienced players due to their complexity and most people decide against practising them it seems. People don't like losing early on which is perfectly understandable.

[Torpid]

I agree with Torpid's statement that IG have the best T2 in the game. However, I think that they require a lot more micro than other races to be applied effectively, which I think is the "problem" here. When it comes to Ogryns, I think they are a lot more effective in 1v1 than in team games, since they can be used for flanks more often which negates their suppression immunity. The problem you are addressing here is that, in my opinion, IG has not such a proper linebreaker unit as other races do. I mean, a correctly placed manticore strike can act as a linebreaker, or flanking ogryns, or a chimera by just letting the guardsmen tank the damage. But they are all not that straight forward as the linebreakers of other races are. Another issue you might be addressing is the - in my opinion - lack of possible retreat kills due to the lack of melee options. And of course sentinels can be managed to last into t3, but in many of the matchups they won't be doing that, so there is at least one unit that you will almost certainly lose in t2. To address those issues, I proposed vehicle armour for the sentinel which has not received much appreciation here in the forum. Some other proposals were around, like making the Banewolf accessible to all commanders in the form of a T2 Hellhound tank and Elysian Droptroops allowing for retreat kills. Would Ogryns perform better if they were immune or at least less vulnerable to suppression and would it still be balanced?

Yep. Entirely this.

The lack of a linebreaker in the convention vehicle, non-suppressible form is what is being addressed here. However IG honestly don't deserve one. They have been made to be very hard to push against but not so good at pushing. That's fair albeit different.

And I agree with Flo actually, now that snipers have been nerfed especially, sents should be surviving well into T3.

Whether or not IG have a good t1 is dependent on the game-mode. Their T2 isn't amazing in teams because they aren't great at walking head-on into artillery spams. In 1v1 though it's a totally different matter, there isn't as much artillery and when there is artillery is doesn't cover as much of the map as the IG will be moving through so it's easier to avoid. By contrast though in team games their t1 performs better because everything can blob up with no concern and so spotters and their shells are more effective at forcing off squads because half your army isn't elsewhere trying to cap. That's the problem in 1v1, you blob too much around your spotters and you lose the entire map, so there's a trade-off between capping the map and winning engagements.

[Cheah18]

That's the problem in 1v1, you blob too much around your spotters and you lose the entire map, so there's a trade-off between capping the map and winning engagements.

This is tooo painfully true. IG's tier 1 units can't survive alone (catas are the most equipped to do so but still get outranged pretty easily) and thus it is exremely hard to cap the map while fighting. Often, you must force the enemy off in a defensive stand at a key area, then proceed to cap while he replenishes his force. This is exactly the reason, along with lack of bleed, that apo/pc is so useful against IG; the opponent is extremely hard to force off and as a result you have no time to cap, all the while he is closing in on your gens.

@bountyhunter tbh I have always wanted to see tier 3 vehicle armour sents roaming around. They would be much slower, and have very little hp, its just the change in armour type would make them far more survivable and thereby useful. They would have a heavy flamer upgrade or something (I wanted a low dps autocannon but I think thats a little overboard). There are few units in the game that scale sooooo badly: Torpid used heretics as an example of one in the past but at least they can repair and worship. Sents add splash dmg that you dont need vs enemy termies/vehicles and have a weak AV weapon which isn't too great because you can't chase any vehicle with it without getting dropped in a second.

[Protagonist]

I do like the idea of an increase in the number of ogryn models(adjusting stats as needed). Currently the squad seems to be really inconsistent with its tanking. Sometimes the squad is down to ~150 hp with all models and other times with only 1 remaining. This can make gauging how the engagement is going to play out really difficult with ogryns, making them both frustrating to use and play against. With more models, the bleed might occur more consistently and help limit ogryns from completely dominating some fights or getting completely destroyed in others.

From an economic standpoint, it might be worth changing the bonehead to be the last model to die as he tends to die alot by being in front of the squad.

[Dark Riku]

Let's talk about IG. I ... but from what I can tell from casts and tournaments, IG isn't utilized very often. Based on my team game/2v2 experience, I think there is something amiss within the Imperial Guard ranks.

Just because something isn't used often doesn't mean there is something wrong. Tyranids are a prime example of this.

This I disagree with. Spotters are the best of a bad situation. I would much rather have a jump unit.

A squad that hard counters suppression without putting themselves at risk... oh the horror -.-

From an economic standpoint, it might be worth changing the bonehead to be the last model to die as he tends to die alot by being in front of the squad.

Welcome to all the other non-detector unit squad leaders. Can't just start changing this.
You don't want your Ogryn squad to get flesh hook trapped to death either ^^

[Ven]

IG also has the best T1.5 unit for countering setup teams, spotters.

This I disagree with. Spotters are the best of a bad situation. I would much rather have a jump unit.

really? they can counter 2 setup teams at once using both shells. they also do full damage to all setup teams. now that devs and havocs mave melee resist; asm and raptors actually have a hard time of actually killing any models or pushing off the squad if they have counter-initiation.

they're also the most cost efficient T1 setup counter that isnt a commander/wargear. they have very low upkeep and dont bleed much/at all if used correctly.

I do like the idea of an increase in the number of ogryn models(adjusting stats as needed). Currently the squad seems to be really inconsistent with its tanking. Sometimes the squad is down to ~150 hp with all models and other times with only 1 remaining. This can make gauging how the engagement is going to play out really difficult with ogryns, making them both frustrating to use and play against. With more models, the bleed might occur more consistently and help limit ogryns from completely dominating some fights or getting completely destroyed in others.

ogryns are very much like space marines with the ammount of models they have, so does SM need more models in a squad? nope.

From an economic standpoint, it might be worth changing the bonehead to be the last model to die as he tends to die alot by being in front of the squad.

well , most races dont have last to die leaders, i dont think ogryns should be any different.

[Torpid]

I do like the idea of an increase in the number of ogryn models(adjusting stats as needed). Currently the squad seems to be really inconsistent with its tanking. Sometimes the squad is down to ~150 hp with all models and other times with only 1 remaining. This can make gauging how the engagement is going to play out really difficult with ogryns, making them both frustrating to use and play against. With more models, the bleed might occur more consistently and help limit ogryns from completely dominating some fights or getting completely destroyed in others.

From an economic standpoint, it might be worth changing the bonehead to be the last model to die as he tends to die alot by being in front of the squad.

No way, it's a bad idea in both forms - same hp, more models, or lower hp, lower cost, more models, lower dps.

1) It makes them less useful vs walkers (their main use really) because they will get hurt even more from special attacks and lose significant amount of dps from earlier model losses.

2) It means they will bleed more than they already do unless they get an overall increase in health per squad, but then that would make them more effective vs non-aoe and I dunno if they should really be that.

3) Artillery will be more even more effective vs them.

4) Grenades would be more effective vs them.

[Torpid]

IG also has the best T1.5 unit for countering setup teams, spotters.

This I disagree with. Spotters are the best of a bad situation. I would much rather have a jump unit.

really? they can counter 2 setup teams at once using both shells. they also do full damage to all setup teams. now that devs and havocs mave melee resist; asm and raptors actually have a hard time of actually killing any models or pushing off the squad if they have counter-initiation.

they're also the most cost efficient T1 setup counter that isnt a commander/wargear.

That only applies when the rest of the IG army is blobbed up around the spotters. That's most of the time in team games, very rarely in 1v1.

[Ven]

really? they can counter 2 setup teams at once using both shells. they also do full damage to all setup teams. now that devs and havocs mave melee resist; asm and raptors actually have a hard time of actually killing any models or pushing off the squad if they have counter-initiation.

they're also the most cost efficient T1 setup counter that isnt a commander/wargear.

That only applies when the rest of the IG army is blobbed up around the spotters. That's most of the time in team games, very rarely in 1v1.

care to elaborate? the spotters dont even need to be in the blob, they can be much further back and thus out of range of enemy fire while still being able to use their abilities. if your main army gets forced off, your spotters will be further enough back to just walk away and go and cap something etc.

[Torpid]

care to elaborate? the spotters dont even need to be in the blob, they can be much further back and thus out of range of enemy fire while still being able to use their abilities. if your main army gets forced off, your spotters will be further enough back to just walk away and go and cap something etc.

Well obviously alone the spotters themselves are useless vs suppression teams as they just lack dps.

If they're too far behind the rest of the army then in order to get LoS the other units must enter the firing range of the suppression team meaning they get suppressed and don't end up doing enough dps to force off the suppression team before it falls back behind the protection of another team or ranged units, or takes cover again after you mortar shell them forward.

If the set-up team were already behind cover and the smoke shell is used instead of the mortar shell then even 2 GM + sentinels + spotters won't even force off the set-up team in time, especially if it a havoc/devastator with their heavy infantry armour.

In team games though you have you army blobbed up and can immediately shoot down the stuff that comes flying towards you post-mortar shell, in 1v1 however half your army is elsewhere capping or forcing off their cappers/dealing with stray heroes. So in general spotters do tend to perform much better in teams than 1v1 because spotters are better when they're used alongside other units.

[Atlas]

^ that and that it's a bit of a misnomer to say that the spotters counter two setup teams. Spotters have 1 hard counter and 1 soft counter to setup teams and they need the backup in the form of dps in order to actually force off a setup team. They're not just wizards that erase setups off the map.

I'm gonna be trying more catachan smoke as a suppression counter in my next few 1v1s actually. It's more expensive than spotters yes, but I believe catas can provide more overall in terms of composition and map control. Will come back later and let you know how it went

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

The problem with Ogryns IMHO it that they require support to be really useful. With enough support, however, they become a powerful squad. Their synergy with artillery spotters is great

[Dark Riku]

The problem with Ogryns IMHO it that they require support to be really useful.

A trait they share with every other unit in the game.

[Sub_Zero]

A trait they share with every other unit in the game.

Agree here. People need to stop mentioning this obvious and applicable to every unit in this game (and not only this game) thing.

About ogryns. I proposed two changes to them - reduce the cost of the leader and reduce the cost of reinforcing. Now they have a standard cost for their leader but the cost of their reinforcements is still painful. I would move in this direction - making their models cheaper.

[Torpid]

I think ogryns are perfectly balanced as it is.

[Osinski]

1) It makes them less useful vs walkers (their main use really) because they will get hurt even more from special attacks and lose significant amount of dps from earlier model losses.

Ogryns are a stupid counter to walkers. Walkers get melee resistance and if you fail, you bled, and they gained experience. If I saw a walker, my first choice would be stormtroopers or a las cannon. Whether or not it's a good change for ogryns, this point you made is mute.

[Cheah18]

1) It makes them less useful vs walkers (their main use really) because they will get hurt even more from special attacks and lose significant amount of dps from earlier model losses.

Ogryns are a stupid counter to walkers. Walkers get melee resistance and if you fail, you bled, and they gained experience. If I saw a walker, my first choice would be stormtroopers or a las cannon. Whether or not it's a good change for ogryns, this point you made is mute.

I want to reiterate this. Protagonist I think you're belief that Ogryn's main use is countering walkers is a misguided one. They are a semi-hard counter to ranged walkers and best. That is, if they get into melee with a ranged walker they will bum it, but they aren't dedicated in that sense and the opponent can make efforts to prevent that.

[Torpid]

I want to reiterate this. Protagonist I think you're belief that Ogryn's main use is countering walkers is a misguided one. They are a semi-hard counter to ranged walkers and best. That is, if they get into melee with a ranged walker they will bum it, but they aren't dedicated in that sense and the opponent can make efforts to prevent that.

Twas' I who said it, not Protagonist. But I stand by the point. The main time you buy Ogryns is when the enemy gets a walker. If they are spamming artillery or melee squads you don't get ogryns. You get it vs generic ranged unit spams or walkers. Now, of course they are specifically brilliant vs ranged walker variants such as the tzeentch dread or the assault cannon dreadnought - two very common walker types vs IG, however in general they just perform well vs walkers. Of course ogryns alone don't suffice vs a walker but a melee walker that commits to fighting ogryns is at a far greater risk of death than the ogryns themselves since oggies retreat, walkers don't. All of the IG heroes have tricks they can use to get a lascannon into that fight unnoticed or to otherwise very abruptly sway the fight in favour of the ogryns - silently on the HWT from the IQ combined with extra LoS from the servo skull, mines+explosions for instant snare and then execute on the HWT with the LC, or the sniper buff from the LG/a heavy turret drop.

The thing with ogryns is that they demand dedicated counters - the enemy must get some artillery on top of that walker instead of going T3 or if they are not SM/chaos/orks they must get some melee squad (or dark reapers because, yeah, Caeltos added them for no reason) to counter the ogryns. Meanwhile when you finally do take out the walker with the HWT/ogryns (because neither alone will suffice realistically) the ogryns are still exceptionally useful in both a counter-initiation role and a flanking role since they can easily solo most units in the game courtesy of their ability. They're also not bleeding when doing this thanks to their SHI and low model count. They only bleed when they fight walkers or artillery head-on in which case you ought to be trying to kill that walker or not fighting it and regarding artillery your ogryns should simply never be near artillery - they should be flanking it or doing work elsewhere.

[Protagonist]

I want to reiterate this. Protagonist I think you're belief that Ogryn's main use is countering walkers is a misguided one. They are a semi-hard counter to ranged walkers and best. That is, if they get into melee with a ranged walker they will bum it, but they aren't dedicated in that sense and the opponent can make efforts to prevent that.

I was confused for a second because I didn't recall saying the line you're referring to until I realized it was a minor quoting error. That was Torpid's line, and I think he's right about it having read his follow up(see the post above).

[Cheah18]

Yeh soz Pro haha that's my bad.

@Torpid this is all true, but its not going to be easy to get Ogryns into a position where they can damage a walker in such ways?

However I'm sure we can agree the things Ogryns can do to eldar DAs and such without DR support are horrific.

[Torpid]

Yeh soz Pro haha that's my bad.

@Torpid this is all true, but its not going to be easy to get Ogryns into a position where they can damage a walker in such ways?

However I'm sure we can agree the things Ogryns can do to eldar DAs and such without DR support are horrific.

I don't think it's that difficult really unless there are additional dedicated ogryn counters on the field. Artillery being one such thing but even then you can manticore the artillery or smoke it with spotters, or nade it with stormtroopers. If they have everything blobbed there so you can't get close then don't take the fight!

If it's a ranged walker and there is no dedicated melee, dark reapers or artillery to guard it then the ogryns can single-handedly bash its skull in. Especially if you combine then with silently or the bionic-eye or the LGs suppression immunity buff to get around set-up teams. If it is a melee walker, sure they can't just wade in and trample all over it however melee walkers generally suck vs IG and in that case the enemy will have to come to you to fight up close - this usually means getting a jump squad to deal with your las-cannon which you got the kill the walker. Ogryns not only do great damage to the walker itself should the commit in melee but they also do a brilliant job at counter-initiating vs teleporting/jumping squads/heroes themselves. Hence why compositionally they are just so useful to have around when dealing with walkers of either form.

[Cheekie Monkie]

Personally, I believe the libby trolls most of what IG's efforts at killing walkers. Controlled jump troops can be gated; hell, even force barrier blocks lascannon shots and pushes back your orgryns long enough for you to either push on the offensive or get your walker walking away. Of course, he'll cost as much as much as a dread himself... but DAMMIT I LOVE THE LIBRARIAN.

Anyway, before I turn this into a librarian advertisement thread, the point I'm making is that this is where the dance happens - moves and countermoves to throw the other player off balance. All this talk about Orgyrns countering melee walkers is a bit ironic considering that I consider a melee dread a borderline must have when fighting Orgryns, due to the combination of burst damage and the empy's fist. On the other hand, in the view of the guard player orgyrns sound useful against walkers for the aforementioned reasons above.