Invisible abilities

[Lag]

I am talking about abilities which can be really powerful, yet are very, very hard to spot.
Obvious ones are Cloud, Termi's Flamer ability, but also Farseer's Doom, Mekboy's global ranged buff, Commie's global buff for increased damage/health on units per model lost etc.
Any idea how to fix these so they make sense? Of course some players will encounter no problems with some of these, as, for example, the Cloud is less of a problem for SM (who usually have a max of 3 units grouped and then even if Cloud does start - it is really hard for them to lose models) than for IG or Tyranids (swarmy, hard to spot as it is a pale circle that appears UNDER the troops and wipes entire armies within seconds), but that doesn't change the fact that sometimes these invisible abilities overperform because they are hard to spot.

The other day I faced double upgraded Termas and an upgraded Horma with a single upgraded t2 Shoota squad.
Pop off Waagh, pop off the Mekboy ranged global, focus Horma (which end up standing still because of the knockback), force them to retreat and then turn around to focus Termas. I end up wiping a squad. The guy just goes "Huh?". +25% ranged damage for 20 seconds and a 6 second cooldown shouldn't be invisible.

Oh and if anyone gives the "WELL YOU SHOULD EXPECT IT" argument I will just ask - why not make the Nukes invisible as well? You should expect those in t3 anyway.

[Kvek]

Well i think the cloud needs to be bigger just put it under a vehicle and it's completly invisible. Even tho if you are microing things, using abilites, trying to grenade it's so freaking hard to spot it.

[Lag]

Especially on grassy and snowy maps. Not to mention having your units buffed and already quite shiny. GL detecting the pale green transparent circle under all of that.

[Ace of Swords]

Wasn't the damage increase removed from the mekboy's global and only the knockback remains?

Beside if cloud is to be more visible it needs way less activation time, it has been nerfed even too much in elite.

[Lag]

Eh...

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I agree in part with you, Lag.

In the case of buffs/debuffs the perfection would be that any buff or debuff must has his own, different and clear effect to differentiate it from the rest and sufficiently visible.

In the global/direct damage abilities is different, because a bigger/clear effect could decrease the effectiveness of the ability.

[Asmon]

Well, you should expect it.

And also look at what actually happens on your screen. Nub.

[Kvek]

Well, you should expect it.

And also look at what actually happens on your screen. Nub.

"what actually happens on your screen"-Of course when i am trying to do a autarch-nade drop

[Torpid]

The strength of such abilities lies in them not being detectable. If you are always looking 100% of the time at where your enemy tries to manticore strike then depending on the map, your enemy may never even force you to retreat ever, which wastes 100 power. The same applies to plague clouds, except these things cost 200 red per attempt. I mean let's compare the effectiveness of ToN with the plague cloud. ToN is a guaranteed engagement winner when used correctly, cloud rarely is in my experience.

Besides a nuke costs 500 red and is more easily detected because it kills a million times faster and has a much large aoe.

[Lag]

Manticore strike = huge red flare above your units accompanied by a sound effect.
Cloud = tiny transparent greenish circle under your troops on what is most often greenish/whiteish terrain, no sound effect.
Are you truly basing your argument on comparing these two?

@Asmon see first post.

[Ace of Swords]

Manticore strike = huge red flare above your units accompanied by a sound effect.
Cloud = tiny transparent greenish circle under your troops on what is most often greenish/whiteish terrain, no sound effect.
Are you truly basing your argument on comparing these two?

@Asmon see first post.

200 red is alot, a manti is free and can fire what? every 1 min?, beside it forces a retreat for any setup team and acts as AV when coupled with a snare, and it's very well able to take down a dred in a volley if all the missile hits, beside the speed at which the missile come down is based on the distance of the manti fro it target.

[Dark Riku]

Obvious ones are Cloud, Termi's Flamer ability, but also Farseer's Doom, Mekboy's global ranged buff, Commie's global buff for increased damage/health on units per model lost etc.

Cloud is fine as it is. Considering the slower speed and shorter duration it has now.
When you are fighting a plague champion you should anticipate a cloud.

Termiantor flame ability? The big flaming ground under the affected area maybe?

Doom can be spotted by the red circles it gives the unit.
This should preferably be improved but can stay the same.

More Daka could definitely use a new visual. Since it looks the same as Waagh.
(Same problem we had with UYC and 'Ard Boys.)

Loyal To the End should also get a new visual.
It's the same as his lead by example one which can stay the same.
(Same as Waagh.)

Eldritch Storm and Singularity should also get distinguishable visuals.
(Maybe add in "warp-lines" in the singularity circle/Eldritch circle.
Whatever the creator prefers.)


Problem is someone has to make them before Lugrim can implement them when he has the time.

[Lulgrim]

Oh and if anyone gives the "WELL YOU SHOULD EXPECT IT" argument

Well it is a valid point in some cases. If you're fighting a PC in T2+ and blobbing up shit you actively scan for the silly ring because you damn well know the Cloud is coming sooner or later.

I will just ask - why not make the Nukes invisible as well? You should expect those in t3 anyway.

Because the Cloud (for instance) is not invisible either...?

[MaxPower]

Obvious ones are Cloud, Termi's Flamer ability, but also Farseer's Doom, Mekboy's global ranged buff, Commie's global buff for increased damage/health on units per model lost etc. [..] Oh and if anyone gives the "WELL YOU SHOULD EXPECT IT" [..]

Well if the Space Marine player gets ranged Terminators and if he upgrades them with a flamer, u should expect that the moment the Terminators teleport into your blob they will start using the ability.

I think that the teleport and the flamer on the Termintars should be indication enough that they might use the flamer to bbq your units.

[Lulgrim]

Problem is someone has to make them before Lugrim can implement them when he has the time.

Actually I can sort of do fx stuff, but I have trouble finding sufficient time for good results. We wouldn't mind an fx person if anyone's interested (there is a tool for it and no "artistic" talents are required)

[Asmon]

Let make things clear. Above all, none ability is invisible. At most it is hiden by another ability (like whaaag! hiding More Dakka). Such cases come indeed from a design flaw hence should be corrected.

But even in these cases, there are still stuff like unit behaviors, sound effects, vocal lines whose purpose is solely to deliver information that help to tell what is what. And it would be lowering the skill requirements of the game to ignore them, and change something that does not need any fixing.

Onto nukes, clouds etc. Those that are hard to spot are so in essence, because they are triggered so slowly they would be worthless with a better indicator. We should compare costs, wind-ups and efficiency before changing anything.

[Lag]

So basically - a t2 ability that costs 200 red and myself, including a good number of other players, end up not seeing it and getting raped, while most of the 500red t3 globals, like Roks and Eldritch Storm, you see as soon as they are ordered and can safely retreat from it with losing a model or two? And this makes sense?
BTW The only global that you can't escape and is LETHAL is the IG one, and that's another thing worth addressing IMHO, but this is another topic.

@Riku you would be right about the flamer - if Termi's were available before the battleground became full of creaters, burnt ground etc. You will see the Manti strike no matter what the ground looks like, while the Flamer ability is invisible on charred terrain.

@Ace then why is the LG barrage visible? It is also a red-costing ability but is visible from outer fucking space. It can also do a lot of damage (hell, it wiped enough of my squads so far), it costs only 25 more red. You know what? I'd gladly accept it being that 25 red more if it becomes invisible.


(I already said what I meant by "invisible" in the first post. It means very very hard to spot when compared to how lethal it can be.)

[Torpid]

Lag, it's a global, globals rape stuff, they are meant to. ToN in the middle of a fight can often wipe asm resulting in a GG. A call da boyz or mass waggh at the right time can result in many wipes.

So your argument is that noxious cloud is better than globals. Well I disagree. Even when it lands right underneath my GM it rarely wipes them due to how slow it is, and does even less if I'm any race other than IG.

Nukes by the way I would argue aren't very dodgable, I mean sure you can dodge a roks or a eldritch but it requires an instant reaction when placed perfectly. Rocket run and abyss are much the same in that they are both undodgable when used correctly. Yes abyss has less opportunity to do this, but you can catch units on retreat with it, or blobbed up or stuck on corners and it's impossible to dodge. OB is also pretty impossible to dodge when used correctly; place one blast slightly in front and to the left of the foe, one slightly behind and to the right of the foe and then the last in the middle, in the retreat path of the foe. Used on a blob with the right timing, that's completely undodgeable, using it on random clunks of units is a different matter, but just goes to express the utility of that global now. Now the tyranid nuke is admittedly terrible in comparison since it is totally predictable and therefore very easy to dodge (On that note, how about randomising which towers erupt first from the tyrannoformation?)

By the way manticore strikes don't have a cost per shot and deal far far more damage than a plague cloud can assuming they get in, that's what justifies them having a huge ass flare. Cloud's ambiguity is fine at the moment, the ability isn't over performing. Please when considering balance do as Asmon said - consider how the change will affect your race and other races and look at it all from a 1v1 perspective. Generally I don't find that many craters hanging around making clouds invisible in 1v1, in fact in 1v1 I've never lost my army to a cloud in my life and that includes retail (and I play IG).

LG barrage is visible because it moves quicker than the cloud and has a much shorter initiation time. Therefore it itself is more likely to change engagements than the cloud assuming both are detected pretty swiftly. Still the red cost is lower since it has little wiping potential (especially since the IG army itself has none, so knocking stuff into it won't wipe it like say eldar could) when compared to the cloud itself.

[Lag]

You can easily move out of the LG barrage.
If you don't spot the Cloud it wipes low HP models in 3 seconds and it is very, very hard to spot under endless swarm/sarge commie GM unit compositions. It wipes armies. No other t2 global deals more damage than nukes do. Write all you want, these are facts.

[Dark Riku]

I don't think anyone can take you serious if you say that cloud does more damage than any nuke -.-

You are also complaining that an anti-blob global counters your, for some reason, blobbed up army? Cuz who needs to position properly anyways?

[Asmon]

I would be ok for a better cloud indicator if it had 1 second less wind-up.

But remember that dow2 is all about combining several things together to get great results. If the cloud does hurt you so much it is because you are blobbing carelessly. It is a mistake that your opponent should punish and does so when casting the cloud.

If you never blob, your opponent has to find another way to maximize the effect of the cloud (for example casting it on your retreat path while he's winning the engagement).

The fact is that the cloud is poorly effective by itself. It only works when combined with something else. Don't help your opponent.

[Lag]

But if I am blobbing carelessly and my opponent uses a Roks (which is t3 and 300 more red) I am not punished? Makes sense man.

[Nurland]

Are you actually saying that Cloud is more punishing global than Roks? Well sure it might be more punishing to an IG blob if you just stand in the cloud and don't mind retreating or going into a bunker/a transport.

Roks also rapes vehicles, has larger AoE, hurts high hp models and provides some "pretty decent" disruption.

[Lag]

I'm talking about a certain ability which should be an engagement helper (like the CS and CL spawning of Blood Letters is) being able to wipe out an entire army in a matter of seconds and being insanely hard to spot on most maps (add the blobbiness of the IG and Tyranids to the equation, especially considering that Tyranids also have the synapse animation more often than not), and can be movable as well, opposed to a t3 500 red ability which is instantly spotted and can be safely retreated out of. Roks damaging vehicles means way less to IG and Tyranids than to some other races who have walkers in t2 and actually have pretty high HP tanks which can easily tank nuke damage. It can, at best, kill a few models while they are retreating.
I see how it is maybe not the case for Space Marines who have 3 high HP models and 4 of those units on the field so they can be bled considerably more by a nuke such as Roks and the Storm, while spotting the Cloud way more easily and also not being punished by LOSING THEIR ENTIRE ARMY for failing to do so, but you can't just ignore that the Cloud is often overperforming for some other races. It is as if there were Tau in the game and people said that the Flare ability of the Commie is okay in the matchup (for 75 red!), even though all of the Tau stuff is ranged only and are as proficient in melee as the Wraithguard are.

[Nurland]

Well I don't main IG so can't really say (perhaps some IG players would like to contribute?). Retail Cloud was OP good though but I have rarely found very good occasions for Clouds in Elite (it has it's uses though). I prefer saving my red for termies or ToN when playing PC.

And Noxious cloud does 15dps per model of heavy melee dmg so in order to wipe full hp lvl1 gm squad it needs 7 seconds. Based on my experiences cloud is so slow I rarely manage to chase anything down with it these days if they just retreat out of it straight away. If it gets a flashy new spawn icon that can be seen from outer space it should get a reduction in casting time also.

Nids with tower spam shouldn't really have issues with the cloud wiping shit due to the speed buff.

[Lag]

7 seconds minus the damage they take in the encounter. God forbid there is a flamer weapon involved. I am quite okay with it going off faster if there is a visible indicator.

[Nurland]

Mmm. Gm squad that has been getting luled by immolate, lamers or gaynade launchers, etc AoE will probably get owned pretty fast & bad by the Cloud. I can agree on that one.

[Torpid]

I play IG and I think it's honestly fine. Like I said before never in my entire gaming experience on dow have I lost a squad playing as IG against a noxious cloud in 1v1.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

unless it's been changed the cloud does a DoT which lasts for a very long time.

[Dark Riku]

Since when did this thread became a cloud balance thread?
Cloud is fine as is, and so is the visuals for it for reasons already stated above.
It's already so much weaker than the retail version. It's fine now.