Just a few things i feel needs to be changed.

[Ven]

now i have a number of things i've been thinking that needs a change. so instead of making a thread for each, im going to throw them all in here.

Warlock Merciless witchblade

on paper this weapon is fine, its very similar, again on paper to the bang bang hammer. it has similar damage/dps.
i will say again thats on paper... in reality its really a bit too strong. we're talking about a hero that leaps in to combat that knocks back most units; getting free hits in and 2-3 shotting CSM models, all the while he has his champions robe soaking up damage preventing him from being forced off, and he also has his super cheap distort field global which by far makes him the tankiest commander in the game in T1, when you finally get him low he fleets off and decaps your stuff before you can even think about giving chase. ALSO it drains energy so it bascially makes most commanders in the game get on their knees if they even so much as think of fighting the warlock in melee, but if you fight him in range he has that ranged knockback with the weapon aswell.

my point is that, the warlock is one of the most mobile commanders in the game and with the right wargear hes one of the tankiest in T1. the bang bang hammer which i said earlier on was the closest comparison in terms of the weapon is the same thing, but the warboss is not as mobile, is kited easier AND is easier to control with the lack of a leap in to combat. you might say that the merciless witchblade, especially in combination with the champions robe is very expensive. but i just feel like you get way too much value out of the merciless witchblade. its a commader that leaps in to combat, getting free hits, draining energy, forcing off low model high HP squads such as tacs almost instantly. all the while he can if he so chooses sit in cover and knock stuff over all day.
all the while HE'S DOING ALL THIS IN T1

here are my proposed changes for the witchblade:

remove the energy steal from the weapon

OR

reduce its damage slightly, or make it reduce the leap range of the warlock.

Rhino

now i've said about this in previous threads, and in my streams etc. but i think the rhino is really a bit too OP in certain matchups and a lot of people tend to agree.

a lot of races such as nids, eldar, orks etc have high ranged dps AND power melee in T1. this is a somewhat balanced matchup in terms of the rhinos SHI in T1. races like these can deal with the rhino in T1 with an investment of sorts, just like how you would counter any other unit.
however... races like SM and CSM get no power melee or the sorts in T1, and generally have lower dps than eldar, orks, nids etc. SM and CSM have no specialised damage types in T1 to deal with the rhino. let me just list all of the things that can even do enough damage to the rhino to justify their purchase.

Setup teams, so havocs and devistators
Heretic doom blast on rear armor
Plague sword
FC power sword, to a degree.

that's it...

this list has a problem... GK counters all of that with pretty much the BC himself, or ISTs + rhino.

havocs/devs are countered by BC in all his forms. in his default state, with the sword, with psychic lash, with teleport, with pretty much all his armors. i watched the VOD of codex's stream of the beginners tournament and he kept on saying "ven should get havocs for that rhino" when all i could do was smash my face in to my desk when he said that as that would be a horrible idea with the BC there.

heretic doomblast on rear armor is a massive gamble and generally speaking you'll only get 2 or 3 off before they're forced to retreat depending on whats shooting at them and if they have the AC or not.

and plague sword/FC powersword is countered by the rhino kiting.

CSM/tacs dont do enough damage to threaten the rhino by themselves, and even then, the SS with beat both CSM and tacs in both melee and ranged combat in T1 (im fine with that btw as they dont scale as well as CSM/tacs)

Proposed changes for the rhino:

Change the rhino back to HI, it was perfectly balanced before with HI armor in 1v1, so what if it sucked in 3v3s and one wrong pathing derp could mean death? this is a mod balanced around 1v1s.

OR

Change the rhino back to HI AND remove its ability to take rear armor hits. this will make it still useful somewhat in 3v3s. and it will play a bit like the sentinel just without the anti-melee etc.

OR

keep it as SHI... but significantly reduce its HP. to like 200 or 300 or something. right now as mentioned before, its a bit silly in some matchups. this will also add some value to the armor upgrade in T2, a lot of players dont get it right now as there isnt enough value in it.

[Cheekie Monkie]

I admit that good MWB play makes me rage. It's effectively a heavy gauge spinner with excellent melee and support capability to boot. I won't say it's OP though, as I there's a few things which I need to test out when I get to fighting a good warlock.

And the rhino is difficult to deal with as SM? As I've said in a prior thread, what's wrong with snipers? They do decent dakka to the BC, bleed storms well (bolstered by the fact that hiding behind the rhino does nothing vs snipers) whilst being able to pressure the rhino itself. The techmarine can also lure the rhino into a trap with his mines.

[Torpid]

I certainly wouldn't call the distort field global cheap at 75 red for what it does and I would very very rarely want to use that on my Warlock instead of my shees. Red is probably hardest to come by as eldar compared to any other race especially if you do a non-ranger build.

You also missed the biggest strength of the MWB - its amazing tracking special. The thing is nuts. It's power melee for some reason and it does huge chunks of damage and it hits twice while tracking. Granted if the first hit hits it does knockback and so the second usually misses but the fact that it does damage twice makes it tremendously effective vs melee squads. It also seems to have a bigger radius of effect than most special attacks.

Granted all this utility is the reason it is the most expensive t1 wargear in the game but its certainly not overpriced. To be honest I'm not sure why it drain energy like it does. It just seems too powerful vs jump squads and I'm not really sure why he needs it. The energy drain though, I must admit, is the main reason I play the warlock vs space marines atm over the farseer. It's so useful vs ASM and the FC/apo.

[Nurland]

I think MWB special is power melee. Not heavy melee.

[Ven]

I admit that good MWB play makes me rage. It's effectively a heavy gauge spinner with excellent melee and support capability to boot. I won't say it's OP though, as I there's a few things which I need to test out when I get to fighting a good warlock.

And the rhino is difficult to deal with as SM? As I've said in a prior thread, what's wrong with snipers? They do decent dakka to the BC, bleed storms well (bolstered by the fact that hiding behind the rhino does nothing vs snipers) whilst being able to pressure the rhino itself. The techmarine can also lure the rhino into a trap with his mines.

while mines could potentially do things to the rhino, what else? and thats still just one commander. does that mean you're forced to come as TM when you know you're against GK? snipers while they will do damage will be countered by pretty much all other T1 GK units. perhaps snipers would of been significantly better back before they were changed vs a rhino. but there is still the issue of chaos not being able to do fuck all to it. and there is also the thing where chaos is basically hard countered by GK anyway that its just silly. ability denial in T1 and T2 from the cantacle of absolution and dark excommunication, and physic blast hard countering blood letters is just humiliating on top of the rhino being untouchable. GK can already out menouver chaos in any gamemode with the rhino, but its also unkillable by them.

I certainly wouldn't call the distort field global cheap at 75 red for what it does and I would very very rarely want to use that on my Warlock instead of my shees. Red is probably hardest to come by as eldar compared to any other race especially if you do a non-ranger build.

i guess, but thats not really what im pointing at here. i just used it in my example.

You also missed the biggest strength of the MWB - its amazing tracking special. The thing is nuts. It's heavy melee for some reason and it does huge chunks of damage and it hits twice while tracking. Granted if the first hit hits it does knockback and so the second usually misses but the fact that it does damage twice makes it tremendously effective vs melee squads. It also seems to have a bigger radius of effect than most special attacks.

Granted all this utility is the reason it is the most expensive t1 wargear in the game but its certainly not overpriced. To be honest I'm not sure why it drain energy like it does. It just seems too powerful vs jump squads and I'm not really sure why he needs it. The energy drain though, I must admit, is the main reason I play the warlock vs space marines atm over the farseer. It's so useful vs ASM and the FC/apo.

WAHT THE FUCKING FUCK!? ok that needs to be fixed if nothing else, if its a tacking special that does heavy melee, thats just silly. thats just the cherry on the top, wow. while its still the most expensive wargear i still feel like there is too much value for that 35 power, he can solo basically any T1 unit and some armies he can solo by himself for a while while his army caps stuff. and yea, the energy drain brings all other commander to their knees which basically means they become useless in the engagement withot enough energy. i really, really dont know why its a T1 weapon. all other energy drain weapons in the game are in T2 but the warlock gets one in T1? da fuq?

[Torpid]

I think MWB special is power melee. Not heavy melee.

I'de like confirmation on this as I've lost a great many wartrukks to that MWB...

[Wise Windu]

It is power melee.

[Torpid]

Thanks Windu. Explains why it slaughters ASM so much :O

Damnit trukks are fragile...

[Nurland]

I was right! http://youtube.com/watch?v=M1UWPagjNaA

[Superhooper01]

The hive node is the only thing really getting on my nerves atm. it becomes way to resistance to damage with its ability active and needs its Armour changed as most weapons are ineffective vs it.

[Cheah18]

The hive node is the only thing really getting on my nerves atm. it becomes way to resistance to damage with its ability active and needs its Armour changed as most weapons are ineffective vs it.

So much about nids gets on my nerves

[Indrid]

Remember that the Hive Node also reduces outgoing ranged damage by the same amount. It's usually better to just wait for the spores to end and then push, they're not doing much shooting at you while it is active. People tend to panic or rush it while the ability is active as if they need to.

The only possible nerfs I think could be warranted would be giving it a build time, and/or making the duration of the ability shorter.

[Cheah18]

I was a supporter of the rhino originally but my experience with it thus far is that it is too resilient atm, much like what the OP says. Not sure what exactly but it needs a nerf of some kind imo. The SHI armour is too much with its health

[Surprise Attack!]

Hello. I am give solution to Rhino SHI. Give Rhino two upgrades that are not tied to each other. One T1 upgrade to SHI for 75 Req in addition to the current upgrade.

The SHI upgrade not required for the vehicle armor upgrade.

You like? You like!

[Atlas]

Seems kinda pointless since it already has an upgrade for vehicle armor in t2. Would it be a requirement to get vehicle armor? If so, then it's just making it more expensive at the point in time that we feel it does ok (t2). If the problem really is T1, and I don't necessarily feel that there is a problem, then I would probably look at reduced health but keeping SHI.

[Surprise Attack!]

Seems kinda pointless since it already has an upgrade for vehicle armor in t2. Would it be a requirement to get vehicle armor? If so, then it's just making it more expensive at the point in time that we feel it does ok (t2). If the problem really is T1, and I don't necessarily feel that there is a problem, then I would probably look at reduced health but keeping SHI.

Hello. I am give solution to Rhino SHI. Give Rhino two upgrades that are not tied to each other. One T1 upgrade to SHI for 75 Req in addition to the current upgrade.

The SHI upgrade not required for the vehicle armor upgrade.

You like? You like!

: P


My suggestion is simply that there be a cost tied to converting the Rhino from HI to SHI, instead of simply reverting the Rhino back to HI and getting rid of the SHI entirely. While it is clear that the SHI is too strong in T1, there was a reason why it was added in the first place, that in some situations, the HI was not adequate.

This way, the GK player can determine whether or not he/she should purchase the SHI upgrade. In one particular instance, if the GK player notices that his opponent is not putting out much ranged DPS, he could potentially just keep the Rhino with HI armor until T2, and get vehicle armor.

After bouncing this idea off Torpid, we thought that it could be interesting, however, is if they were mutually exclusive. Essentially you can pay a relatively cheap price for a huge impact in T1(as SHI does now) or wait it out with HI until T2, and get your Vehicle armor, which costs power as well, and causes your Rhino to loose some HP. I've actually noticed some GK players NOT get the Vehicle armor on their Rhinos simply because there's just no point in doing it for the additional power cost, especially if the opponent has invested in a bunch of AV. With Lascannons on the field, the Rhino will have a better time surviving with SHI(more HP).

Forcing players to make a choice can make for interesting gameplay, as making such a choice could potentially pay off, or punish the player.

[Ven]

from a 1v1 perspective, HI was fine (forest even said to me that he kept HI rhinos alive until T3 in a 3v3 several times). SHI would be fine if it wasnt for the fact that races like chaos and SM have barely any damage types to deal with it in T1. especially considering the rhino can just outkite most of what those races do have. it also grants mobility SM and CSM dont have in T1; so avoiding engagements and capping around the rhino wouldn't work.

perhaps if the SHI was a T2 upgrade. but that still leaves the possibility of fast teching screwing over SM/CSM, also 75 req is way too cheap for what SHI gives. if you watched the BT, almost every game Atlas fast teched. i almost managed do punish it in my first game with him by power bashing at just the right time. but in the 2nd game, he got a rhino. it was a 7 min game. i tried to kill the rhino with MY ENTIRE army. it didnt even get to half HP. (this was without repair support)

right now its not all about the SHI, but the cost of the rhino too, it can be brought out faster than a setup team of ANY race. 180/30 is way too cheap for what it is right now. the rhino as it stands right now performs like a 600/60 cost unit in T1. it has 10x the impact of any other T1 GK unit vs SM and CSM. the only way i see the rhino retaining SHI and still being balanced is if its cost was significantly increased. perhaps if i have double havocs on the field before it then perhaps it might actually be able to dent it in T1.

[Atlas]

Well to be fair building noise marines vs a rhino is a pretty uphill battle

As for current counters to a t1 rhino as SM/CSM you might want to take a look at sniper scouts, devs and asm and for CSM Havocs,Raptors and GL tics. Obviously not all of those at the same time.

GL tics and Sniper scouts both do bonuses to SHI and devs/havocs work nicely in zoning them. Also since they have SHI and can be hit in rear armor, landing a jump squad behind them and getting a few hits is going to put a dent in them.

If cost is your concern, keep in mind that all of these options add a new dimension to your composition as well as just countering the rhino. Like the sentinel, the rhino rewards a player that's able to keep it alive to t2 where it really starts to rock some firepower.

[Broodwich]

I am not a fan of the shi rhino, even with its reduced capacity, it is too strong with ist support. It was already awesome even in 3v3 pre patch. It isnt a big investment to begin with, so losing it isnt the end of the world.

Plus i just find it retarded that playing as the elite psykers of the elite of mankind devolves into some regular dudes driving around in metal boxes that pewpew then run away

[Ven]

Well to be fair building noise marines vs a rhino is a pretty uphill battle

As for current counters to a t1 rhino as SM/CSM you might want to take a look at sniper scouts, devs and asm and for CSM Havocs,Raptors and GL tics. Obviously not all of those at the same time.

GL tics and Sniper scouts both do bonuses to SHI and devs/havocs work nicely in zoning them. Also since they have SHI and can be hit in rear armor, landing a jump squad behind them and getting a few hits is going to put a dent in them.

If cost is your concern, keep in mind that all of these options add a new dimension to your composition as well as just countering the rhino. Like the sentinel, the rhino rewards a player that's able to keep it alive to t2 where it really starts to rock some firepower.

setup teams are horrible VS GK unless you double them up. a single havoc will be run down by the BC himself. the BC can literally just walk up the setup teams using WATH! by the time you have a 2nd team, the GK has already got map control and has bashed your power. that is exactly what happened in our game. also, i got noise marines as i assumed you knew how broken rhinos were right now and you wernt going to get one as it would make it too easy for you, apparently not.

raptors dont do enough damage, and out outkited by the rhino.

GL tics are only good if the rhino is staying still, if it moves then GLs are basically useless against it.

Snipers are countered by every other T1 GK unit, even the BC himself.

comparing the rhino to a sentinel is stupid. atleast CSM can shoot down a sent easily. tacs even have an ability that allows them to shread sentinels. the rhino is also 900(!) health of SHI on a 8 speed vehicle, that does only slightly less dps than a sentinel.
piercing damage does 67% of its damage to HI, thats how sentinels can be shot down. SHI however only takes 30% of the damage from piercing. and again, i will point out its 900hp, SHI, 8 speed... for 180/30... IN TIER 1. you cant say with a straight face that the SHI rhino is balanced. perhaps back when it didnt have a weapon it was balanced because by itself it couldnt do anything, but now thats not the case.

in the past with SHI rhinos, you would focus down and force off his army and then the rhino would do what exactly? path block you or something? but now, that rhino stays around after the GK army had been forced off, and bleeds you squads to the point of you having to retreat them and then only when it gets to about 100HP can it back off, as piercing damage doesnt do enough.

i'd also like to point out that chaos terminators, the lowest HP terminator variant has 1250 HP per model. the rhino has 900HP and is the same armour type. its also got 8 speed. so the rhino is basically a T1 terminator with fleet of foot that can transport units, all the while been cheap as chips and doing only slightly less dps than a sentinel.

the only real weakness to the sentinel is the fact it can take rear armor hits. and back when it had HI, 2 voleys from a single GM squad on rear armour killed a rhino. but now it would take atleast 4-5 voleys. but if you never face your rhino away then... yea...

[Atlas]

What Ven said +
....so the rhino is basically a T1 terminator with fleet of foot that can transport units, all the while been cheap as chips and doing only slightly less dps than a sentinel.....

I think people are really overestimating how scary the rhino is in t1. It really is just a brick that doesn't cap, can't tie up units and does pretty mediocre damage for a 30 power unit. It doesn't provide anti-melee in t1 like the sentinel does so most of it's real impact is just being a wall and shuttling whoever it can which is almost always gonna be either ists or purgs.

I really do feel that the rhino is stoppable, even as SM/CSM. It's no terminator with fleet of foot that's for sure

[Ven]

What Ven said +
....so the rhino is basically a T1 terminator with fleet of foot that can transport units, all the while been cheap as chips and doing only slightly less dps than a sentinel.....

I think people are really overestimating how scary the rhino is in t1. It really is just a brick that doesn't cap, can't tie up units and does pretty mediocre damage for a 30 power unit. It doesn't provide anti-melee in t1 like the sentinel does so most of it's real impact is just being a wall and shuttling whoever it can which is almost always gonna be either ists or purgs.

I really do feel that the rhino is stoppable, even as SM/CSM. It's no terminator with fleet of foot that's for sure

i think you're underestimating it. the rhino right now is the most cost effective T1 unit of any race in a SM/CSM matchup due to a lack of damage types to deal with it. you saw how i put my ENTIRE ARMY on the rhino, and it never even went below 50%. like i said even if it is just the rhino and the other GK stuff had been forced off. the rhino does enough dps to stop units standing around and capping stuff. and you cant outcap a GK with a rhino even with a unit advantage. if i went to go cap stuff in that game where you went the rhino, you'd just put your strikes the the rhino and go to where i was capping, stop me from capping, and bleed me.

the rhino is fine as a concept of a T1 transport unit. its fine with a weapon on top. but for its price with SHI its just stupid.

also, while the rhino doesn't give anti melee, ALL OTHER GK UNITS DO. again, im going to say that comparing the sent and rhino, is a bad comparison.

[ytimk]

Sorry, but I've got to ask: what does "MU" mean in DOW2 play context?

edit: VVV Thanks mate

[Dalakh]

MU stands for match up, as in which heroes/races face each other.

[Surprise Attack!]

What Ven said +
....so the rhino is basically a T1 terminator with fleet of foot that can transport units, all the while been cheap as chips and doing only slightly less dps than a sentinel.....

I think people are really overestimating how scary the rhino is in t1. It really is just a brick that doesn't cap, can't tie up units and does pretty mediocre damage for a 30 power unit. It doesn't provide anti-melee in t1 like the sentinel does so most of it's real impact is just being a wall and shuttling whoever it can which is almost always gonna be either ists or purgs.

I really do feel that the rhino is stoppable, even as SM/CSM. It's no terminator with fleet of foot that's for sure

i think you're underestimating it. the rhino right now is the most cost effective T1 unit of any race in a SM/CSM matchup due to a lack of damage types to deal with it. you saw how i put my ENTIRE ARMY on the rhino, and it never even went below 50%. like i said even if it is just the rhino and the other GK stuff had been forced off. the rhino does enough dps to stop units standing around and capping stuff. and you cant outcap a GK with a rhino even with a unit advantage. if i went to go cap stuff in that game where you went the rhino, you'd just put your strikes the the rhino and go to where i was capping, stop me from capping, and bleed me.

the rhino is fine as a concept of a T1 transport unit. its fine with a weapon on top. but for its price with SHI its just stupid.

also, while the rhino doesn't give anti melee, ALL OTHER GK UNITS DO. again, im going to say that comparing the sent and rhino, is a bad comparison.

Are you saying that I should rush rhino in t1 and park it in enemy base????

[Ven]

Are you saying that I should rush rhino in t1 and park it in enemy base????

y'know. i wouldnt be surprised if that worked vs SM/CSM if they went with quick gens instead of a 3rd squad.

[Atlas]

Anybody who rushes gens without building a third squad should get gen bashed as it is. Yes, that includes Eldar.

Anyway, I think we might need to take another look at Fire Dragons. I'm pretty newb in terms of Eldar but I rarely see them fielded. I remember talking earlier about them being way cheap and thinking they would go well with falcons but I haven't really seen that. Perhaps they're another one of those units that are much better in 1v1? I rarely play against Eldar in 1v1 so I'll keep that in mind.

[Torpid]

Anybody who rushes gens without building a third squad should get gen bashed as it is. Yes, that includes Eldar.

Anyway, I think we might need to take another look at Fire Dragons. I'm pretty newb in terms of Eldar but I rarely see them fielded. I remember talking earlier about them being way cheap and thinking they would go well with falcons but I haven't really seen that. Perhaps they're another one of those units that are much better in 1v1? I rarely play against Eldar in 1v1 so I'll keep that in mind.

They're near useless in 3v3, they're much better in 1v1. They're extremely fragile and high dps like warp spiders except their dps is not just good vs LI, it is good vs EVERYTHING. The downside? They don't get a teleport... They're great vs melee nid builds or just melee builds in general that are supplemented by a melee walker. They rip up bloodcrushers in an instant and they counter-initiate vs jump squads (especially HI ones) very well so they synergise with double shuriken+falcon plays.

[Cheah18]

I think people are really overestimating how scary the rhino is in t1. It really is just a brick that doesn't cap, can't tie up units and does pretty mediocre damage for a 30 power unit.

This isn't the reason its scary. It is because you can hop ss, ist ist into it, park by a gen farm, unload on a gen, and hop back in and run in spite of, as Ven said*, the opponent's whole army. It allows 3 of your units to become a high dps kiting formation. If you try dps the rhino, the units hop out, attack your infantry units, hop back in - rinse and repeat. If it had heavy armour, this capacity would be reduced as driving by/near enemy fire would be extremely risky; atm, you can pretty much hightail straight through an enemy army with impunity provided you are fast enough.

Also it serves more than a 'brick' because it opens up a fast lascannon/bolter in tier 2 which comes out of nowhere. Parked by my gens, the rhino is doing its measly 25dps so I'm not worried then BAM, instant 80dps or lascannon on my gens and army. The SHI allows it to survive in tier 2 in this respect WITHOUT an upgrade; putting it back to HI will absolutely, 100% prevent this because having the rhino for too long within range will be tantamount to placing it at extreme risk. Also, it means that one has to buy the armour upgrade FIRST before the weapon upgrade in order for it to be an effective harassment unit instead of just a 'brick' (which it would be with HI armour). In similar fashion, and just as importantly, HI armour would mean the GK user cannot just drive his merry way around the map in tier 1 without his rhino being at great risk to enemy piercing damage. This leads to it being less viable in tier 1, and, as such, it wouldn't be selected as much. This in turn would mean that the fast gen bash/harrassment is now off the table, and the rhino would have to be bought in tier 2 for its lascannon.

I SWEAR TO GOD the rhino was so so fine with HI in retrospect; I put in a good lot of hours playing as GK in 1v1s and buying the armour upgrade BEFORE the lascannon or heavy bolter (and I actually chose the latter a lot, still good bash potential). It meant you couldn't park by gens or hightail through fire in tier 1, and ensured a little delay (and power sink) was needed while getting the vehicle armour before the weapon could be bought and used. At the time I was like 'yeh GK need buffs SHI rhino gud' but now I'm like 'What have I done!? I've created a monster!'

*probably the first time Ven and I have ever agreed... I'm sure he will like this one

FIRE DRAGONS: ...Are really good! So underused.

[dark heretic]

ven if you are having problems v a rhino then play LA and flesh hook it gg