Just a few things i feel needs to be changed.

[Cheah18]

Soz for double post.

I think the SM-Chaos MU is great, and I think SM has an edge. Albeit a slight one.

Scouts are a fanastic unit, and are more than a worthy match for tics from an MU perspective.

[Atlas]

I'm also of the opinion that pound for pound, SM have the advantage in SM vs Chaos. At least in T1, but since that T1 momentum is a big deal I don't know how important that distinction really is. I feel that this is the main idea behind a lot of MU problems such as some IG and GK MU's.

Going back to SM vs Chaos the real advantage comes from the scouts vs tics, where if we're playing with capable players will always be scout favored, even with tic AC + GLs imo. You can ride the map control advantage from there on.

I must admit though that I very rarely play vs HT. What kind of "nice" builds are we talking about here?

[Torpid]

....REALLY?!

It was you who said this:

The bunker costs more but to compensate for that its regen is better than that of the nest's, but the nest is T1 which honestly is probably the strongest thing about the nest, in 1v1 the nest makes the IG vs HT MU impossible, like, just impossible. IG don't get anything that can square off against a BSWB + 3x terms with IS HT near a nest at their farm. And it really isn't as simple as "just bash with a flamer GM". The nid will have better map control, the nid is faster than you etc etc.

So, is it impossible or is it not?!

Obviously it isn't literally impossible. I meant it in a hyperbolic manner originally which is why I said "like, impossible".

The rest without quotes cause it's faster:

(about GK rhino)

Yeah, it's definitely OP. But I don't think it alone makes GK OP. They're certainly no longer UP though.

[saltychipmunk]

perhaps it is time for everyone to consider that maybe t1 just is not the place for a cheap transport unit.

you give it heavy inf armor and people complain its too squishy you give it shi armor and it is too durable

the purge/ rhino combo is so good who the hell needs interceptors ... again .. Jesus Christ those poor losers cant catch a break ... they will never be needed.

[Torpid]

perhaps it is time for everyone to consider that maybe t1 just is not the place for a cheap transport unit.

you give it heavy inf armor and people complain its too squishy you give it shi armor and it is too durable

the purge/ rhino combo is so good who the hell needs interceptors ... again .. Jesus Christ those poor losers cant catch a break ... they will never be needed.

There's no reason at all for interceptors to be 500 req though. Especially with their nerfed teleport speed now too. They definitely should be 450.

[Ven]

perhaps it is time for everyone to consider that maybe t1 just is not the place for a cheap transport unit.

you give it heavy inf armor and people complain its too squishy you give it shi armor and it is too durable

the purge/ rhino combo is so good who the hell needs interceptors ... again .. Jesus Christ those poor losers cant catch a break ... they will never be needed.

There's no reason at all for interceptors to be 500 req though. Especially with their nerfed teleport speed now too. They definitely should be 450.

agreed. i mean, with the BC being able to charge down setup teams interceptors have limited usability in T1 and cost way more than ASM.

[Forestradio]

Grey Knights are utterly useless vs nids/orks.

y u no pega style

[Sub_Zero]

No matter what you say about interceptors but their T2 performance is invaluable. The only snare Grey Knights have and since when a quick and durable squad with disruptive capabilities is bad? You have to remember that there will be more heroes and they may not be as good at onslaught as the Brother Captain, Though I agree that 500 req is definitely too much for their T1 performance.

[Ven]

No matter what you say about interceptors but their T2 performance is invaluable. The only snare Grey Knights have and since when a quick and durable squad with disruptive capabilities is bad? You have to remember that there will be more heroes and they may not be as good at onslaught as the Brother Captain, Though I agree that 500 req is definitely too much for their T1 performance.

we are talking about their T1 performance here. they are a T1 unit afterall.

tbh i wouldn't mind if they were a squad in T2 that came default with the grenades.

[Cheah18]

There's no reason at all for interceptors to be 500 req though. Especially with their nerfed teleport speed now too. They definitely should be 450.

I request a use of reference here... Plagiarism alert

And it would be good if people at least thought about the possibility of removing the rhino. Not saying it is the correct way forward, but it could be.

[enasni127]

There's no reason at all for interceptors to be 500 req though. Especially with their nerfed teleport speed now too. They definitely should be 450.

I request a use of reference here... Plagiarism alert

And it would be good if people at least thought about the possibility of removing the rhino. Not saying it is the correct way forward, but it could be.

I just had another IG vs GK and it's just awful! people know exactly that they basically cannot lose when playing a rhino + 1250hp commander and so on (cheah described it very well). people with 10-15hours played abuse this bs on purpose and win without any skill. it's just noobmode (just as tyranids atm).

remove it or at least move it to tier 2 and adjust the lascannon (i mean NERF). also its cost of 180/30 is by far too low.

I repeat it again and again: IF SHI on t1 is ok and HI on a rangeunit/transport is to squishy, then it would only be right and needed to give SHI armor to the sentinel too and make it transport strong melee units or 1250hp commanders who are immune to suppression.

really, do that for 1 patch and see this forum explode

[Forestradio]

-Rhino now has HI armor
-Rhino storm bolter dps reduced to 20 from 25
-Rhino lascannon price increased from 110/0 to 110/20
-Rhino Vehicle armor now increases the maximum number of units the rhino can transport from 2 to 3

?

?

?

?

?

[enasni127]

-Rhino now has HI armor
-Rhino storm bolter dps reduced to 20 from 25
-Rhino lascannon price increased from 110/0 to 110/20
-Rhino Vehicle armor now increases the maximum number of units the rhino can transport from 2 to 3

?

?

?

?

?

is this your suggestion or official (source?)

I would like to see a price increase from 180/30 to at least 300/XX - I don't see any reason for the rhino being that cheap.

[Ven]

-Rhino now has HI armor
-Rhino storm bolter dps reduced to 20 from 25
-Rhino lascannon price increased from 110/0 to 110/20
-Rhino Vehicle armor now increases the maximum number of units the rhino can transport from 2 to 3

?

?

?

?

?

[Cheekie Monkie]

Agreed with most of Forest's suggestion, though I'd push for a req increase to 250-300 rather than a dps nerf.

All in all, I'd also like the rhino to be less durable against ranged fire and slightly more durable to melee, since it doesn't have stomp and also dat dow pathing.

[Cheah18]

less health and melee resist could work

[Forestradio]

is this your suggestion or official (source?)

Just my suggestion

The general reasoning behind the dps nerf is that the rhino is extremely potent at a pressure-play oriented approach, which is quite effective against the races that already have a tough time against GK. Reducing dps lessens that pressure. At the same time, leaving the cheap price allows for the rhino to still be incorporated into transitional t2 builds (or even as part of a quite large t1) where it has a needed role against races that GK have a tough time against.

Basically, imo a performance nerf rather than a pricing one would be the better option.

[saltychipmunk]

Yeah pricing would be a poor idea. The issue with the rhino is not that it can be bought cheaply nor is it because it can be fielded quickly.

it's issue was that it is largely unkillable in t1 against races that don't have a long ranged or exceptionally mobile anti heavy infantry damage type.

all in all i think all that really need happen is the change back to heavy inf armor . but if i recall people complained that it was as durable as a wad of wet toilet paper on account of its rear armor vulnerability.

once it goes back to HI (if it does that is) we will need to address that issue. its hp pool is not nearly high enough to survive rear armor hits (with hi armor that is)


back to the topic of interceptors , changing their cost by 50 req will not really accomplish much of anything. Will they be on the field 8 seconds faster? sure. will it change the fact that their jump has no disruption until t2? nope.

that lack of disruption is 95% the reason why interceptors cant keep up with the other jump units. just like storm boys before them (though at-least storm boys have other things unique to them like their absurdly high melee damage).

I don't know about everyone else but if i am dropping 500 50 for a unit that unit better do 500 50 worth of stuff.

and the fact of life is i can do ALOT more with suppression from raptors and knock back from asm than I will ever be able to do with a unit that has slightly more hp than raptors and slightly more damage than asm with a "no longer" instant jump.

hell that knockback alone is how alot of sm players counter the counter jump unit melee units like banshees sluggas and tics , jump on them... free shots on the squishy units.

[Cheekie Monkie]

I think part of the reason why inties are so expensive relate back to the old days of nemesis focus. They're also one of the few jump troops in the game who have relatively few energy concerns due to canticool in T1, so they shouldn't be able to run around disrupting so much shit in T1. Of course, you may then argue that the problem lies with canticle and not the interceptors themselves. To be fair, I'd rather see canticle redesigned and T1 interceptors made cheaper.

As a side note, I'd like to either see the intie flamer become a serious tactical choice or redesigned entirely, as it has the potential to both make them truly unique amongst jump troops or fulfil a niche in the GK roster.

[egewithin]

Wow wow wow wow wait a second! Does anybody thinks that Rhino lascannon is not fair just like me? You know, we can get a '' that mobile '' AV option until we get a Predator Tank. I don't care how much damage it makes and I don't care if you increase the prise of it. It will always hit and run my Dreads and even if I get multi-melta or Tzeetch-Dread, it will always hit and run to me and can even take down my Dread with it. Same problem with Sentinal missiles but I have no solution for it so I won't point on it.

I think it should be removed or changed to pyscannon things with '' cool '' damage with enough range. Or at least, decrease the lascannons range so if I get multi-melta on my Dread, so it can not fire from sooo far away.

[Torpid]

Wow wow wow wow wait a second! Does anybody thinks that Rhino lascannon is not fair just like me? You know, we can get a '' that mobile '' AV option until we get a Predator Tank. I don't care how much damage it makes and I don't care if you increase the prise of it. It will always hit and run my Dreads and even if I get multi-melta or Tzeetch-Dread, it will always hit and run to me and can even take down my Dread with it. Same problem with Sentinal missiles but I have no solution for it so I won't point on it.

I think it should be removed or changed to pyscannon things with '' cool '' damage with enough range. Or at least, decrease the lascannons range so if I get multi-melta on my Dread, so it can not fire from sooo far away.

No. It is a hard counter to walkers, in fact it is GK's best walker counter. Its performance vs walkers atm is very justified. If anything it is the lascannon's performance vs infantry that is too strong.

[Nurland]

Lascannon rhinos anti inf damage is pretty great since it seems to retain its T1 weapon making it do 25 piercing + 23 with the lascannon (full damage against HI).

Not sure if HB Rhino also retains the T1 bolter (I think it does but not sure). That would make the HB rhino do 80dps piercing (for comparison RB does 55 and Chimera 45 dps without a squad inside to man the extra weapons).

[Torpid]

Lascannon rhinos anti inf damage is pretty great since it seems to retain its T1 weapon making it do 25 piercing + 23 with the lascannon (full damage against HI).

Not sure if HB Rhino also retains the T1 bolter (I think it does but not sure). That would make the HB rhino do 80dps piercing (for comparison RB does 55 and Chimera 45 dps without a squad inside to man the extra weapons).

Indeed but often the GK rhino finds itself wizzing about kiting stuff in which case the HB is only doing 50% damage and the front bolter may very well not hit anything at all. Contrastingly the lascannon has 100% FOTM.

[Cheekie Monkie]

Good point actually. In both S(HI) and vehicle form, the rhino is going to want to be constantly mobile. Would it be worthwhile to buff the heavy bolter's FOTM rate whilst nerfing its maximum dps?

A very rough illustration of this would be to buff the HB's FOTM to 100%, whilst nerfing its maximum damage to 75% to what it currently is. This will make its damage more consistent and manageable.

[enasni127]

I'm a hardcore lascannon-hater, too!

I think the lascannon rhino is basically a mini battletank and this alone comes one tier too early - as the rhino itself is one tier too early on tier 1.

Also, I can not completely understand what people think when they say it's "justified" vs walkers. I mean, it is still a transport and can be filled with repair-support or psycannons etc. Another option for GK would be their own dreadnaught (somehow nobody talks about it or consider it being able to counter other dreadnaughts or vehicles...it even has a plasma cannon!)

The missile sentinel is by far weaker than the lascannon rhino for following reasons:

1. The sent doesn't have fire on the move
2. The doesn't have SHI armor or even vehicle armor and is so easier to counter
3. the missile launcher does less damage than the lascannon


Really, this ********* rhino should just be removed.

[egewithin]

I'm a hardcore lascannon-hater, too!

I think the lascannon rhino is basically a mini battletank and this alone comes one tier too early - as the rhino itself is one tier too early on tier 1.

Also, I can not completely understand what people think when they say it's "justified" vs walkers. I mean, it is still a transport and can be filled with repair-support or psycannons etc. Another option for GK would be their own dreadnaught (somehow nobody talks about it or consider it being able to counter other dreadnaughts or vehicles...it even has a plasma cannon!)

The missile sentinel is by far weaker than the lascannon rhino for following reasons:

1. The sent doesn't have fire on the move
2. The doesn't have SHI armor or even vehicle armor and is so easier to counter
3. the missile launcher does less damage than the lascannon


Really, this ********* rhino should just be removed.

Finially found someone who agrees with me.

Also, gonna point on the anti-heroisim effect of the Rhino again. These are Knights as you know. They will fight in close combat as soon as they can and tear into pieces the enemy infantry. This is a must if we are talking about knights that have super human genetics and super shiny armors. If you gonna get 3 Storm Trooper and gonna play mini-caste tactic (that is what I call for Razorback play), why did they gave you these stuff? Go play IG, at least this tactic makes sense at there. At worse, try it with SM, it is still acceptible. But please not the GK.

[Cheekie Monkie]

Also, gonna point on the anti-heroisim effect of the Rhino again. These are Knights as you know. They will fight in close combat as soon as they can and tear into pieces the enemy infantry. This is a must if we are talking about knights that have super human genetics and super shiny armors. If you gonna get 3 Storm Trooper and gonna play mini-caste tactic (that is what I call for Razorback play), why did they gave you these stuff? Go play IG, at least this tactic makes sense at there. At worse, try it with SM, it is still acceptible. But please not the GK.

This makes sense for tabletop, but not necessarily for DoW.

DoW is a game of escalation, starting with minor skirmishes in T1 and only properly elevating into proper army wide fights in late T2-T3. In the context of fluff, it starts with a minor inquisitorial force scouting the area, securing and holding ground until the main fighting force arrives i.e. purifiers, dreadnoughts and terminators. GK might be knightly knights, but they're not stupid and have a wider range of tactics than running around hitting stuff, especially with a captain on the field (who's supposed to be a tactical genius and all that in addition to being able to run around hitting stuff really well). Hit and run tactics are not out of the question, especially when the captain is still looking for his giant beatstick and is still forced to fight using a wooden sword.

When a unit in the game annoys you or even a lot of people, the solution isn't to delete them. Otherwise I'm pretty sure the LA, WSE, sentinels, rangers...would no longer exist in the game. The rhino needs rebalancing, not a removal, especially since a lot of hard work has already been put into modelling the damn thing. I would say that the rhino's lascannon is too strong against infantry, but until vehicles target the things I want it to target when firing on the move, I'd advocate a price increase instead (though it probably doesn't need splash damage).

[Forestradio]

Somewhat relevant replay from the fight club, both the hb rhino and lasrhino get a pretty decent showing.

http://www.twitch.tv/frozenvapor100/c/5912211

Game starts at 4 hours 40 mins.

[Jes]

Keep in mind, that the rhino has slightly better accel and turn than your usual SM razor.

I have no idea why it has that in the first place, nor why it should keep it's pintle after a weapon upgrade.
It doesn't need either.

[Cheah18]

The argument for HI being too squishy is an invalid one.

The Rhino SHOULD NOT be used as a bullet sponge/tank/shield or whatever in any case. I remember a post a while back from someone well educated on the matter (I think it was forest but not sure), that explained that the BroCap is your main tank, the SS is also pretty tanky, and ist/rhinos should be used for additional firepower. It is NOT a sentinel, where you stand it in the middle to draw fire while repairing. It is not meant to be used like that. You should keep it behind your main lines and use it for fire support + mobility in tier 1, and then for some pew pew in tier 2. In order to make it a tank and not JUST a fire support unit, you buy an upgrade.

Again, the rhino isn't meant to get hit for prolonged amounts of time at all (maybe a few shots while it drives your men away). Therefore, heavy armour is (as it was before) sufficient.

Tbh I don't think ANYONE is defending SHI anymore here so we just need to agree on a fix now. Just wanted to put this little whiny bitch kid of an argument to bed.