Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
so this techmarine was being forced off over and over by me in T1, this was on the top of typhon arena so i kept both naturals for a while, then i got doubled and forced off, when i came back top the techmarine had put 3 turrets on my teams natural and two on his natural, obviously not even teching up at all, and as it was on top of stairs and he had turrets pointing in every direction stopping me from flanking, i couldnt use let the galaxy burn to destroy them (i was CL), by the time i got a vehicle out he had 6 turrets on each VP on both sides 3 were missle turrets and 3 were bolter turrets, so any infantry or vehicles i send up there melted or got shut down. it then hit me that he had put down so many turrets, surely there should be a limit of how many turrets one could put down to stop this kind of thing? or increase the pop cost of each turret? i could literally do nothing as chaos vs all those turrets, i think the only counter i can think to all that is something like a manticore.
My Twitch where i occasionally stream myself pwning/getting pwned on elite mod, i seem to bounce between the two on a game to game basis. - http://www.Twitch.tv/Venkitsune
- Ace of Swords
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Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
You could build some noise marines with the blastmaster and attack ground where you knew the turrets were, or a more straight foward solution would have been plague marines, though those aren't able to out dps the repair, but somehow, I doubt that tm would even try to repair them.
Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
Ace of Swords wrote:You could build some noise marines with the blastmaster and attack ground where you knew the turrets were, or a more straight foward solution would have been plague marines, though those aren't able to out dps the repair, but somehow, I doubt that tm would even try to repair them.
the thing is that like i said it was on top of stairs, so the blastmaster would just hit the stairs just how let the galaxy burn would have, and by the time i was considering plague marines he had already got like 3 tac squads and a plasma cannon. like i said, i cannot think of a counter to it and its silly that there is no limit to the ammount of turrets anyway. because having 6+ turrets all facing in all directions with a height advantage seems to only been countered by something like terminators, guo, or a manticore. but it was not even in T3, by the time i had enough for T3 they had the triple cap and were about 30 seconds away from winning. mass raptors or bloodletters might have worked if it wasnt for the fact he had a bunch of shotgun scouts just sitting on the turrets.
My Twitch where i occasionally stream myself pwning/getting pwned on elite mod, i seem to bounce between the two on a game to game basis. - http://www.Twitch.tv/Venkitsune
Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
The counter is that you go and triple his allies at the bottom and wipe out all their gens. Their turret-spamming ally isn't able to assist them because he has no army as he spent it all on turrets. The lack of gens on their behalf means they tech slower so you just get a fast bloodcrusher out and kill all his turrets.
Suddenly you guys have the tech-lead, will be winning bottom because it was 3v2, and one of their players has literally no field presence whatsoever, as well as you and your ally's having higher level units. All this for a ~200 VP lead, but it's meaningless as from that point on they will never again get 2 VPs at once.
To repeatedly charge head-first into a defensive stronghold of any sort is beyond stupid.
Suddenly you guys have the tech-lead, will be winning bottom because it was 3v2, and one of their players has literally no field presence whatsoever, as well as you and your ally's having higher level units. All this for a ~200 VP lead, but it's meaningless as from that point on they will never again get 2 VPs at once.
To repeatedly charge head-first into a defensive stronghold of any sort is beyond stupid.
Last edited by Torpid on Mon 03 Nov, 2014 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
Ven wrote:countered by something like terminators, guo, or a manticore.
Just a heads up here but IIRC, Manticores do pathetic damage vs turrets. Spotters are your best friend vs them
Edit: GL tics and/or Dread may have at least scared the scouts away while you just dakka away at them turrets. Just as Ace said, if you keep failing top, just go with btm or mid etc and bash power/help allies.
Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
Torpid wrote:The counter is that you go and triple his ally's at the bottom and wipe out all their gens. Their turret-spamming ally isn't able to assist them because he has no army as he spent it all on turrets. The lack of gens on their behalf means they tech slower so you just get a fast bloodcrusher out and kill all his turrets.
Suddenly you guys have the tech-lead, will be winning bottom because it was 3v2, and one of their players has no literally no field presence whatsoever, as well as you and your ally's having higher level units. All this for a ~200 VP lead, but it's meaningless as from that point on they will never again get 2 VPs at once.
To repeatedly charge head-first into a defensive stronghold of any sort is beyond stupid. Comeon man, what were you thinking?
well we had a tech lead, or i assumed we did as he had so many turrets, but when i took a bloodcrusher up top it got twoshot by one of his missle turrets, the BC only managed to take down one of the turrets before dying. grenade launcher tics would of melted to his tacs and the techmarine. meanwhile they had defended all their power, bashed us AND they had the contested power, i did go bot but the large ammount of supression from yet another turret and a few setup teams, again with a height advantage which stopped things like let the galaxy burn being useful then the techmarine with his tacs and scouts appeared thought a webway gate behind us, and wiped both of my allys armies, then my teammates decided to go top with what they had left, which lead to both our gens being wiped and them having a LR and avatar on the field before i was even in T3.
My Twitch where i occasionally stream myself pwning/getting pwned on elite mod, i seem to bounce between the two on a game to game basis. - http://www.Twitch.tv/Venkitsune
Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
Sounds like you guys got out-played to me. Of course, imbalanced games don't serve as a good basis for balance claims.
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Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
I seem to recall that lascannons are actually a decent counter to turret spam if you can give them sight. Checking the codex, both autocannons and lascannons outrange HB turrets and do 40+ dps to turrets. Try to use something durable (and in cover preferably) to give your havocs line of sight and chew up the turrets one by one, since it's nigh impossible to place turrets so they cover each other 100%. When someone does a super weird strategy like this, you need to really force yourself to adapt... trying a single bloodcrusher and then giving up isn't going to cut it. He spent 180 power on turrets, you spent 60 power on a BC.
One lost 3v3 game isn't enough evidence to support a balance change, btw. :/
Oh and Typhon Arena is a fucking miserable map
One lost 3v3 game isn't enough evidence to support a balance change, btw. :/
Oh and Typhon Arena is a fucking miserable map
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- BaptismByLoli
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Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
Typhon Arena is pro-manticore and turret. Especially at btm
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Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
A Tdread and/or some autocannons/pm would have been my answer to that since assblaster attack ground was not an option
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Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
Attack ground over stairs will probably work for noisy elmorines next update. The TM turret limit is 20 btw.
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Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
I can understand how annoying that can be. Turret spamming is something i often see but not in the amount u said. However the players here have said how to work around it and i feel that u dont see this often as it can cost that players team the game. Tbh at least u weren't nids as they struggle the most at killing turrets it seems to me.
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Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
1. once your enemy has turreted up go help your teammates until t2 when you can break the turret spam
2. typhon arena sucks
2. typhon arena sucks
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Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
3v3 games open up a lot of spam tactics that are really hard to deal with. E.g., if one guy on the other team is a nid and builds nothing but spore mines, unless someone on your team has a mass-snare ability it's basically not stoppable.
Normally an opposing TM that spams turrets = an easy victory for my team; I won't say more definitively since what Ven complains of hasn't happened to me, but I'd think while he was building all those turrets he's killing his own tech, which should be encouraged and not discouraged... That said, the suggestions to help teammates triple south aren't helpful, because the reason why the TM is turreting north is to free him to go south himself.
Were his turrets fully overlapped? Would teleporting blood letters onto the "rearmost" one have worked?
I actually faced a CL once who built SEVEN Khorne shrines on "my" VP on Typhon (it was actually a game that got cast, a long long time ago...). I used Wraithguard primarily (which was a pain since melee blood letters were being spawned) to take them out. There must be something you could have used. Plague marines?
Normally an opposing TM that spams turrets = an easy victory for my team; I won't say more definitively since what Ven complains of hasn't happened to me, but I'd think while he was building all those turrets he's killing his own tech, which should be encouraged and not discouraged... That said, the suggestions to help teammates triple south aren't helpful, because the reason why the TM is turreting north is to free him to go south himself.
Were his turrets fully overlapped? Would teleporting blood letters onto the "rearmost" one have worked?
I actually faced a CL once who built SEVEN Khorne shrines on "my" VP on Typhon (it was actually a game that got cast, a long long time ago...). I used Wraithguard primarily (which was a pain since melee blood letters were being spawned) to take them out. There must be something you could have used. Plague marines?
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Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
Do you have the replay of the game? That will convey a lot more information than stated, and also be useful because we'll see the timings. Based on the huge armies you're saying they have, I'm sorry to say it does sound like they outplayed your team (any total newbies in your team?).
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Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
Tsototar wrote:3That said, the suggestions to help teammates triple south aren't helpful, because the reason why the TM is turreting north is to free him to go south himself.
Free himself to go south with what? His techmarine and scouts? Whereas if you have an additional 1200 req and 180 power worth of units to go south with. Obviously your team is going to have a huge advantage in any fight that occurs at the south. You could have 2 fully upgraded scouts, asm and tacs when he only has scouts :\
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Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
Man i haven't seen a spore mine army since retail lol well u dont see people spam turrets in a 1v1 for a good reason:p
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Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
I also think that a turret rush is self compensated. More than once I've found a flank filled with turrets, and I just went to attach the center or the otehr flank. I may not be able to advance that way untill T2, but I know he has no army to come that way either, and any of the other opponents that goes there won't be in another side of the map
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Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
With regards to turrets, I'd think it's better to have them hard-capped rather than have them take up pop cap, considering how such a precious resource pop cap is in DoW 2.
Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
Torpid wrote:Free himself to go south with what? His techmarine and scouts? Whereas if you have an additional 1200 req and 180 power worth of units to go south with.
You're using a specific example from a rather extreme game to apply to a "general principle". By the time one side has 1200 req and 180 power to put down in turrets (and let's not forget the sheer amount of time invested building them that it represents), there's clearly not been resource parity for a long time. The effectiveness of the turret-up-top shenanigans is due to it being easy to lock down with even just one turret; two to add insult to injury. (Same for top VP in Angel Gate). If there's one turret dropped top quickly and you push south and the TM anticipated this, then the difference in resources available to fight in the south is one turret's worth, which is not world-ending.
That said, trying to do something south is much more preferable to standing in base wondering what to do. Thinking about what was stated in the original post, it looks very likely that his team was smashed on resources right from the start, and the inability to deal with the turrets is a symptom and not a cause. Really need a replay to be sure. In any case, are we agreed that a CL's tools for defeating turrets are:
Plague marines
Blood letters
?
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Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
Flank with anything.
Combi-Flamer
Armor of the Inferno
Raptors
Autocannon Havocs
Blastmaster NM
Bloodcrusher
Plague Marines
Bloodletters
Dreadnought
Predator
Phobos
GUO
Terminators
Nuke
Combi-Flamer
Armor of the Inferno
Raptors
Autocannon Havocs
Blastmaster NM
Bloodcrusher
Plague Marines
Bloodletters
Dreadnought
Predator
Phobos
GUO
Terminators
Nuke
Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
Not to mention him placing a turret at your VP requires him to either send his TM off away from his army to avoid yours and get behind to plant a turret, or it requires him to win an engagement vs you despite having saved (rather than spent) an additional 200r30p.
Last edited by Torpid on Mon 10 Nov, 2014 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
Thank you all for your replys, the feedback is greatly appreciated.
i'd like to say im sorry if i sounded incredibly pissed in all of my previous posts on this thread, all of that was done on the day pretty much when all this happened. along with some other stuff going on in my life and the TM taunting me in that game, i was pretty annoyed; so im sorry.
i realise now that yes, we were outplayed, i watched the replay and the only reason my teammates held on for so long is because it was a 2v1 as i mentioned before with me being doubled by the FC, which for most of the game floated between the top and bottom of the map. he took advantage of my teammates being outplayed and me being stumped by the turrets.
maybe plague marines or a lascannon would help in that situation, but im not 100% sure if that would hit the stairs aswell, this game is weird like that. i really should of gone bot, but i dont know, maybe i thought it wouldnt have helped or something at the time. it was a while ago. i know im a good enough player to recognize that as a good option but i just didnt do it for some reason other than once i think. we all have bad games i guess.
and yea, maybe i should of put this thread in "General Discussion" or "Strategy" but i guess discussion whether there should be a hard cap to the ammount of turrets or not would be balance, but i felt like it needed context to why i thought that. the mods can remove or move this post if they think its really not related to balance in any way.
again sorry for sounding like an ass.
i'd like to say im sorry if i sounded incredibly pissed in all of my previous posts on this thread, all of that was done on the day pretty much when all this happened. along with some other stuff going on in my life and the TM taunting me in that game, i was pretty annoyed; so im sorry.
i realise now that yes, we were outplayed, i watched the replay and the only reason my teammates held on for so long is because it was a 2v1 as i mentioned before with me being doubled by the FC, which for most of the game floated between the top and bottom of the map. he took advantage of my teammates being outplayed and me being stumped by the turrets.
maybe plague marines or a lascannon would help in that situation, but im not 100% sure if that would hit the stairs aswell, this game is weird like that. i really should of gone bot, but i dont know, maybe i thought it wouldnt have helped or something at the time. it was a while ago. i know im a good enough player to recognize that as a good option but i just didnt do it for some reason other than once i think. we all have bad games i guess.
and yea, maybe i should of put this thread in "General Discussion" or "Strategy" but i guess discussion whether there should be a hard cap to the ammount of turrets or not would be balance, but i felt like it needed context to why i thought that. the mods can remove or move this post if they think its really not related to balance in any way.
again sorry for sounding like an ass.
My Twitch where i occasionally stream myself pwning/getting pwned on elite mod, i seem to bounce between the two on a game to game basis. - http://www.Twitch.tv/Venkitsune
Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
Ven wrote:again sorry for sounding like an ass.
You were clearly unhappy but I wouldn't say you sounded rude
I've seen *much* worse
Anyways I think its entirely legitimate to be pissed off at turreting of VPs, such a cheap tactic. And it actually is a step on to the (reasonable!) philosophical question as to whether *all* units should have some kind of cap limit. I was in a game where opposing SM player went five sniper scouts, omg
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Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
Tsototar wrote:Ven wrote:again sorry for sounding like an ass.
You were clearly unhappy but I wouldn't say you sounded rude
I've seen *much* worse
Anyways I think its entirely legitimate to be pissed off at turreting of VPs, such a cheap tactic. And it actually is a step on to the (reasonable!) philosophical question as to whether *all* units should have some kind of cap limit. I was in a game where opposing SM player went five sniper scouts, omg
wow that sounds annoying, ive had entire lvl 4 tzeetch CSM squads or lvl 4 psycannon purg squads being wiped in one shot by loads of snipers, thats a lot of ranged dps down the drain in basically one shot.
but in regards to normal units having a cap, im not sure that is neccecary, if its vehicle spam then if you do manage to take them all down then that is a massive economical loss for your oponent, basically winning you the game. where as ranged blobs of ranged infantry are vulnerable knockback, supression, bleed and all that good stuff. turrets cannot be knocked back, bleed or be suppressed, so its basically "kill it before your unit that does counter it gets countered" which is why the shotgun scouts were so annoying, if it wasnt for them i could break the spam. if it wasnt for the height advantage i would have something other than jump units to deal with the turrets. to be honest the whole "some projectiles are effected by height" thing is kind silly, i once wiped my mates GM blob with a let the galaxy burn again on typhon areana, as he was going up the small set of stairs to the contested VP and my CL was at the bottom of the stairs. sigh.
and in regards to units that arent effected by any of those like terminators, the global has such a long cooldown for termies that it basically puts a cap on them, and GK termies are just... yea good luck with that. spam power melee stuff i guess. won a game with triple bloodletters, double khorne CSM, lightningclaw CL, all with tic and khorne shrine support the other day, suffice it to say that a guo was not a good choice from my opponent; fun times.
My Twitch where i occasionally stream myself pwning/getting pwned on elite mod, i seem to bounce between the two on a game to game basis. - http://www.Twitch.tv/Venkitsune
Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
If a spam of any individual unit is too strong then clearly that unit is overpowered. Spam is never viable in perfect balance as it easily countered by spamming whatever counters that specific unit which got spammed.
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Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
Torpid wrote:If a spam of any individual unit is too strong then clearly that unit is overpowered. Spam is never viable in perfect balance as it easily countered by spamming whatever counters that specific unit which got spammed.
yea unit spam i can usually deal with unless its like 5 nob squads or 6 dreadnaughts or something.
turret spam i would be able to deal with, its why i got armor of the inferno in that game vs a TM, i think the fact that anything i could do was being countered by STAIRS of all things just didnt sit right with me.
My Twitch where i occasionally stream myself pwning/getting pwned on elite mod, i seem to bounce between the two on a game to game basis. - http://www.Twitch.tv/Venkitsune
Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
Ven wrote:wow that sounds annoying, ive had entire lvl 4 tzeetch CSM squads or lvl 4 psycannon purg squads being wiped in one shot by loads of snipers, thats a lot of ranged dps down the drain in basically one shot.
I've just realised that (1) that was a game on the same map (Typhon Arena) and (2) I have a relevant clip up on youtube of it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftR97kG1tqk
It shows how the scout snipers were dealt with in the end... (that was a good game, they had us down to about 40-400 and then we clung on and won in the end with about 38-0).
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Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
Ven wrote:Torpid wrote:If a spam of any individual unit is too strong then clearly that unit is overpowered. Spam is never viable in perfect balance as it easily countered by spamming whatever counters that specific unit which got spammed.
yea unit spam i can usually deal with unless its like 5 nob squads or 6 dreadnaughts or something.
turret spam i would be able to deal with, its why i got armor of the inferno in that game vs a TM, i think the fact that anything i could do was being countered by STAIRS of all things just didnt sit right with me.
3 tanks + artillery + suppression team > 5 nobs.
6 las-cannon set-up teams > 6 dreadnoughts.
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Re: Techmarines need a limit to the ammount of turrets.
TM must be a prick lol, not sure if malignant blindness affects structures like turrets. Manticore strikes does absolutely nothing against Turrets ,don't know how you allow TM to escalate to great lengths of spammage . 6 Turrets,3 each VP. If one VP consist of infantry-type turrets , why not send your Dreadnought over & destroy those? Else PM under Khorne worship eases the situation.
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