New Eldar T2 Units

[Tsototar]

But that also means things collapse if you can take out any part of the chain (e.g. the spiders carry the haywire so if everyone focus fires on them first, your dreads have free reign to enter/leave).

Rereading my own post, I feel compelled to point out that plenty of other factions have multiple snare options (e.g. SM have Lascannons that snare their own targets, and ASM with meltas), while Eldar have only one, on a unit that has the same per-model health as T1 shootas and has to get real close to throw a grenade (that takes how long to wind up?).

It felt "worth it" back in retail, even if the spiders had to be sacrificed (hopefully not totally) to get it off, since it was a 100% snare but hey what do you know that got nerfed.

So I'm starting to feel FDs should get a melta too (I can live with brightlance not snaring; I have grown used to it being a "standoff" weapon)

[Torpid]

It's not just a problem of walkers though, that would be fine, the problem is that the brightlance renders any kind of transport play useless making the WL the braindead T2 purchase almost always.

this is true. I now default to a WL with lance in T2 if the other side has any vehicles. 100% fotm accuracy I think is a tad much. See? I'm not a crazed Eldar species-ist.

what I've found in engagements now is that they start off with a melta on my WL though (often when I'm careless with detectors), so it's not like it's completely uncounterable.

If a counter requires sloppiness on the behalf of the unit which is supposed to be countered in order to counter it, then it isn't a counter. Sure if I walk my scouts into heretics, heretics deal with scouts. However scouts counter heretics nonetheless.

And yes the main problem with the BL isn't that it makes the WL so amazing vs walkers, that's ok because it costs more than other walkers while having less utlity vs infantry at ranged as a tzeentch dread would for example, but it compensates for that by retaining melee resistance and its melee splash. Where it goes too far is with the 100% FOTM which makes it far too effective at chasing down fleeing vehicles and especially transports/tanks. This is essentially the equivalent of the Tdread having 100% FOTM. I see no difference except that the Tdread has worship, but then the WL has holo-field support. It needs to be brought back down to 50%.

Also can we please not do the "list a dozen random things about a dozen random units for seemingly no reason" thing. It will just lead to us going to off-track and establishing nothing, despite how tempting it may be to pursue such a thing.

I think discussing the balance of warp spiders, fire dragons and wraithlords is a good way to go with this thread. Shall we try and focus on one first and then introduce the others only if they are necessary to describe the balance of the former...?

[Arbit]

And yes the main problem with the BL isn't that it makes the WL so amazing vs walkers, that's ok because it costs more than other walkers while having less utlity vs infantry at ranged as a tzeentch dread would for example, but it compensates for that by retaining melee resistance and its melee splash. Where it goes too far is with the 100% FOTM which makes it far too effective at chasing down fleeing vehicles and especially transports/tanks. This is essentially the equivalent of the Tdread having 100% FOTM. I see no difference except that the Tdread has worship, but then the WL has holo-field support. It needs to be brought back down to 50%.

I'm not following your logic here. Are you saying the Tdread would have to have 100% FotM (46 dps vs ~23 it is now) to be equivalent to the current WL w/ BL, taking into account melee resist, splash damage, abilities, etc? If so, that seems like a bit of a tenuous comparison.

Are people really ever going to buy the BL upgrade if it only does 10 dps when moving? Honest question here.

[BaptismByLoli]

As Torpid has stated, I'll cease my argument with Tsototar until a thread detailing a specific Eldar unit has appeared to keep this clean.

[Torpid]

And yes the main problem with the BL isn't that it makes the WL so amazing vs walkers, that's ok because it costs more than other walkers while having less utlity vs infantry at ranged as a tzeentch dread would for example, but it compensates for that by retaining melee resistance and its melee splash. Where it goes too far is with the 100% FOTM which makes it far too effective at chasing down fleeing vehicles and especially transports/tanks. This is essentially the equivalent of the Tdread having 100% FOTM. I see no difference except that the Tdread has worship, but then the WL has holo-field support. It needs to be brought back down to 50%.

I'm not following your logic here. Are you saying the Tdread would have to have 100% FotM (46 dps vs ~23 it is now) to be equivalent to the current WL w/ BL, taking into account melee resist, splash damage, abilities, etc? If so, that seems like a bit of a tenuous comparison.

Are people really ever going to buy the BL upgrade if it only does 10 dps when moving? Honest question here.

Ok, it was a tenous comparison, I didn't realise the dps difference was so stark. I guess it just feels like things die extremely fast to the WL and the BL comes across as better than it really is (probably because the WL is chasing down fragile things like razorbacks and getting rear armour hits).

The problem is that unlike vs chaos you can't really stall with set-up teams vs eldar for so many reasons but then the WL dominates all walker fights and has enough dps to significanty hinder transport plays all the while being tremendously effective vs melee infantry, it's too much. If eldar had a Tdread it wouldn't be so bad as it would always be forced to blob with shees and the rest of their army would be useless, but the WL isn't like that. The WL + autarch can go around soloing half the map while shees+shurikens+hero take the other side and the thing falls from that. If the WL wasn't so good vs transports it would be fine as it would be worth the risk of buying a transport and using it to deal with that shees/shuriken/hero blob, bleeding the eldar while the majority of your army tries to kill the WL and push the eldar farm.

At the very least the BL should get a FOTM nerf but a damage buff. This keeps it as an effective anti-walker tool, but makes it lose effectiveness vs transports which is where the problem lies.

[Dark Riku]

but even Tac marines can beat shees if they get enough shots off before they approach.

No, Tacticals absolutely can't beat shees even if they shoot from the moment they spot them.

DA owns GM, Shoota and get grenades and shields vs them not to mention their Embolden ability.
--> "owns"? You exaggerate, sir. grenades - it takes a very distracted player to not be able to dodge a grenade that's not part of a combo.

You can also abuse the pathing, retreat nade, abuse animations and throw when they just can't dodge due to mechanics.

shields have been nerfed from retail and you're not required to fight them in the direction they want to fight.

Yes, the shields have been nerfed for very good reasons. You will have to fight where they have shields. The Eldar player isn't going place shields in places where there won't be combat. Unless you don't want to cap that vp... Flanking also isn't always a possibility due to various reasons, especially versus the nimble Eldar.

Weapon platform does the most damage and is the fastest set-up team.
--> hand on heart, you'd prefer a Shuri to Havocs with instasuppress?

I didn't realise every race has access to havocs :O

Rangers owns Scouts
--> only if guardians have put shields up for them, and there's no way to increase health and add an extra model that dies last, or add a grenade.

I don't even... Do you play this game?

Wraithguards owns every t1-t2 unit in a ranged firefight
--> and those ranged units will charge in to melee them to stop it happening, yes?

And that ranged unit will die to banshees or walk into shurycan fire and then die, yes?

And Avatar loses to - Swarmlord, GUO, HammerTerms, levelled upgraded Nobz (all of which can choose their engagement, i.e. they can run and Avatar can't catch them), and kiting LR and Baneblades (lol, a kiting superheavy ).

Yeah, just forget about the passive buffs the avatar gives you and the unit/army wiping abilities. ...

what I've found in engagements now is that they start off with a melta on my WL though (often when I'm careless with detectors), so it's not like it's completely uncounterable.

Everything can be countered. Terminators with 10 000 HP could be countered. Doesn't mean that it's fine.

It felt "worth it" back in retail, even if the spiders had to be sacrificed (hopefully not totally) to get it off, since it was a 100% snare but hey what do you know that got nerfed.

You're forgetting that the haywire grenade also make the damage output of the vehicles 0 for the duration...


The topic already has long gone off-topic Torpid. The wraithlord has already been discussed a lot before.
Nothing has changed yet ^^ Everyone's opinion on it is probably still the same. I still think it should lose it's melee resistance like any other walker that gets a ranged upgrade. It still then has the benefit of keeping his melee damage, something that other walkers don't have. The brightlance should also get changed alongside the melee resistance. Something in the lines of a cost drop and going back to 50% FOTM or some other change since it over performs like it is atm imo.

[Torpid]

Fine. Dead thread. If anybody wants to discuss Fire Dragon, Wraithlord or Warp Spider balance make a separate thread for it.

And yeah, tacticals used to be able to beat shees if they shot them on approach and the shees were unfortunate with specials. Practically impossible now that banshees have that default hp buff (which is still totally unjustified).

Oh and acually I would rather have shurikens than heavy bolter havocs as eldar. The damage is very key. And you don't need the insta-suppression because rangers/energy shields make the enemy useless at long range and force them to charge your lines. That's where the damage is better, especially on over-lapping teams. That said I would also rather have las-havocs than a brightlance but I know that would be OP.