How are terminators balanced wrt nobs?

[krimson]

I do not understand this specially considering the teams these two units belong. Orks have a massive advantage in tier1..the big shootas almost negate everything in SM team except ASMs or HWT. Come tier2, once upon a time there was a weakness in Ork tier 2. But right now with a fast deff dread (owing to tier1), awesome tank bustas, weirdboy and insta grenades of the stikbombs, its really good... by this time i generally manage to get a dread and push back if my asm adn teleporting hero ties up their AV... but within a short time nobs appear..I can probably maange to hold my own and bring out Assault terminators...but by this time he has a second Nob squad or a tanlk..it doesnt matter how many sluggas and shootas I kill or power I destroy..but my main focus is to recapture VPs I lost in tier1. Now this is my question-

1. Assault Terminators (AT) is super expensive and super costly, is extremely slow, does good damage, cannot reatreat versus a less expensive. does better damage, faster, invulnerable, and can retreat nob squad. How is this justified? Plus you can get a second nob squad too if you want. In short the nob squad has infinitely better survivability and higher damage and is much faster. Almost always the AT gets kited and it is extremely difficult to commit to a fight with no retreat adn small teleport with long cooldown. I am not sure if like Paladins they are capped at 1.

I do not understand the rationale behind this. It is not that I am getting a free squad. I have these suggestions any one of them could be implemented:

1. Keep everything as it is but make them melee monsters..Anything in melee should not survive ..and it includes nobs and carnifexes but should be balanced wrt to Avatar swarmlord and GUO. Slow speed, and lack of retreat makes it vulnerable to kiting and ranged firepower which it should be.

2. Allow terminators to be made from the HQ instead of dropped in. Atleast we can have multiple squads

3.Give them higher survivability- either through longer or multiple teleports, retreat mechanism, higher speed when not in combat, health regeneration, on field reinforcements wrt red, but for heavens sake..dont make the squad spend an hour to go back, a hour to reinforce, and a hour to come to the battle and repeat this process.

The way it is right now both nobs and termis are good when they can get in melee. But nobs beat termis and nobs can get into melee faster and can escape easily. Plus they can get multiple nobs without any cooldown. So why are terminators penalized so much. So if all these things make terminators uncontrollable (my point 3), hoiw come nobs can do these things and be balanced.

[lolzarz]

Lightning claws. They demolish any and all infantry in close combat. Leave the tank to your missile launcher tactical space marines, lascannon devastators and the assault space marine melta bomb. Alternatively, use vanguard veterans on the nobs.

[krimson]

I do get lightning claws and i do not chase the tank.but the battle if it is stalemate..he retreats and comes back quicker..and i have to disengage earlier to make sure i survive.i have to now trudge back to my base.nobs with full upgrades perhaps beat terminators and anyhow he can overextend either after terminators or rest of my AV squad...leaving the tank to chase the terminators..plus soon he gets a second nib squad..and there is almost nothing other than god.micro with predator that i can do to cointer nobs..if only the termintors had normal speed and huge teleport...that will allow it to comw from base and run to base...will not spend so much time out of combat

[krimson]

Thr way i see it...small teleport..no knockdown and no suppression..these are the only advantage terminators have..the small range and long cooldown makes the teleport not that useful...and nibs have frenzy..so again how are nobs balanced wrt to terminator?
What can terminators do that nobs do not do better?
Higher damage
Higher speed
Can retreat
Can build multuple squad
Can own any squad when in melee
Less easy to kite..so why are terminators so over priced?

[Bahamut]

IIRC nobs are actually more expensive than termies, tho in elite they are super buffed(yes they are) which is kinda gay

The only problem i see in termies vs nobs is that nobs can level and termies can't. Lvl 1/2 nobs are possible to handle, lvl 4 nobs... that's another story. Ofc torpid will come in the forum saying something stupid about "nobs will never get to lvl 4 and if you allow them to get to t4 then is your fault" to which he will be SOMEWHAT right but still, there's a very strong snowball problem whenever orks in general start hitting lvl 3 and 4

IMO lighting claw termies should have 75 melee skill to negate that exact issue

[BaptismByLoli]

Because they can wreck stuff if properly supported. 1 Nobz as FC isn't that hard to handle. Lightning Claws Termies, Vanguards with Merciless Strike, Thunder Hammer FC with Sacred Standard. Now use For The Emperor and Battle Cry. Nobz will be useless by then. Plasma Dev can also be added for extra funzies. They'll be knockbacked so many times to even do any decent damage. And try to bait them into frenzy before using a shotgun blast for added lolz as well.

Also, if you have problem fielding unit fast enough, try to minimize your model lost. SM is a race that can't afford bleed. Don't be too liberal with model losses. Retreat when surrounded and don't take too many risks etc.

And what does wrt mean?

[Ace of Swords]

Nobs are currently broken with the painboy, next patch should fix that tough, outside that and supa tuff beam they are fine.

[Vapor]

thunder hammer

[krimson]

wrt means with respect to.

1. SM is almsot always at a tech disadvantage wrt to orks. Terminators have a red cost which is not a big deal but many times I am not able to use FTE. Terminators with lightning claws means I do not get Vanguards immediately. I do not know who comes out victors in these:

1. Nobs + Warboss vs LC terminators and Thunderhammer FC
2.Nobs and warboss vs Vangaurds adn FC-I assume nobs eat them for breakfast

2. The supporting cast of 2 shootas, 1 Tankbustas, 1 sluggas and weirdboy is almost equal to my cast of 2 tacs and ASM. However, the nobs adn warboss will cahrge towards the tacs to drive them off ignoring the slow terminators . yes my ASMs and FC might be able to retreat rest of his quad but then that leaves the fearsome warboss and nobs in melee with the FC and terminators. Here is what happens:

1. Say if the battle is stalemate...I have to disengage and make long trek home. Alll the while I can be cahsed by warboss. I heal reinforce and by the time I am there..map is in ork hands, rest of my army is back at base due to the rampaging nobs or power bashed. And I see the second nob. How am I to counter that? Frenzy cancels set up teams. I need good micro with Predators. And moving tanks ..less said the better.

My question again is how come terminators face so many handicaps but the nobs do not.

Slow as hell, cant retreat, long cooldown on short teleport, requires red, hard capped as 1, and I wonder how the other SM heroes even counter nobs... You can have two nobs squads that can level. So is the damge of terminators so high that they need to be handicapped? In an equal fight it is either disengage adn spend ages before you see a fight or take a do or die approach.
My suggestion is to give a long teleport with a slightly shorte cooldown, so that terminators can disengage and come to the battle quicker. Or increase their speed significantly or give them retreat mechanism. Something needs to be working for the terminators. Else a nob squad is better in every respect. The other option is to give on field health regeneration and reinforcement but slow..so that it cannot be abused more than once during a battle.

The retreat mechanism alone (leave aside high speed) makes nobs more effective and survivable. As a SM player, i would much rather have two nobs squad with FC than have a slow one squad of terminators who spend most of the time in base healing.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

wrt means with respect to.

1. SM is almsot always at a tech disadvantage wrt to orks. Terminators have a red cost which is not a big deal but many times I am not able to use FTE. Terminators with lightning claws means I do not get Vanguards immediately. I do not know who comes out victors in these:

1. Nobs + Warboss vs LC terminators and Thunderhammer FC
2.Nobs and warboss vs Vangaurds adn FC-I assume nobs eat them for breakfast

2. The supporting cast of 2 shootas, 1 Tankbustas, 1 sluggas and weirdboy is almost equal to my cast of 2 tacs and ASM. However, the nobs adn warboss will cahrge towards the tacs to drive them off ignoring the slow terminators . yes my ASMs and FC might be able to retreat rest of his quad but then that leaves the fearsome warboss and nobs in melee with the FC and terminators. Here is what happens:

1. Say if the battle is stalemate...I have to disengage and make long trek home. Alll the while I can be cahsed by warboss. I heal reinforce and by the time I am there..map is in ork hands, rest of my army is back at base due to the rampaging nobs or power bashed. And I see the second nob. How am I to counter that? Frenzy cancels set up teams. I need good micro with Predators. And moving tanks ..less said the better.

My question again is how come terminators face so many handicaps but the nobs do not.

Slow as hell, cant retreat, long cooldown on short teleport, requires red, hard capped as 1, and I wonder how the other SM heroes even counter nobs... You can have two nobs squads that can level. So is the damge of terminators so high that they need to be handicapped? In an equal fight it is either disengage adn spend ages before you see a fight or take a do or die approach.
My suggestion is to give a long teleport with a slightly shorte cooldown, so that terminators can disengage and come to the battle quicker. Or increase their speed significantly or give them retreat mechanism. Something needs to be working for the terminators. Else a nob squad is better in every respect. The other option is to give on field health regeneration and reinforcement but slow..so that it cannot be abused more than once during a battle.

The retreat mechanism alone (leave aside high speed) makes nobs more effective and survivable. As a SM player, i would much rather have two nobs squad with FC than have a slow one squad of terminators who spend most of the time in base healing.

Among the 3 SM Heroes,TM has the Signum armor to easily screw with Nobz . Did you get regular terminators in the 1st place or the Assault termies unique to the FC? If so, that explains the issues unless you did get AT .
You should accumulate your resources for a Dark age Dreadnought b4 getting LC for termies since you're alry in T3 . Dreads having 40% Melee resistance ,especially Dark Age-tech Dread is nthg to sniff at . VG are a great unit vs Nobz,but their unneeded in the situation you're in,
Try to activate BC the moment Nobz pop frenzy ,after the duration worn out, Emperor fist with Dread stun & Pop FTE on LC termies to shred em . 2x Plasma guns tacs helps too
Get your Tacs or ASM to tie up Tankbustas ,Scouts repairing the Dread
He didn't had a painboy so it wasn't that disastrous except Warpath w Nobz chasing your units is Scary shit

[lolzarz]

(Assault) Terminators are NOT hard-capped. It's just that you need to survive another 7 minutes before you can summon more. I'm not so sure whether normal terminators and assault terminators share cooldown as well. If you don't want to take the long way home, buy a Land Raider. It provides a reinforcement point and it is very effective against infantry. The grenade barrage gives damage and disruption against enemy infantry as well.

Frenzy does NOT give knockback immunity. Use battle cry thunder hammer, whirlwinds, plasma cannon devastators and other such sources of knockback. You'll want these to attack the large blob the orks have anyway. If left in melee, battle cry thunder hammer force commander and lightning claw terminators should easily be able to demolish the nobs. Vanguards, with merciless strike, thunder hammer and jump, provide lots of disruption against the nobs as well. Emperor's Fist/Assault Cannon Barrage on a dreadnought is also very useful.

Terminators get disadvantages because they have:
a. Super-heavy infantry armor
b. Teleport
c. 1800 health
d. Additional DPS

[Torpid]

You forgot to add that they are immune to suppression and weapon knockback, as well as inspiring on kill and as well as being a unit on a race that has tremendous amounts of knockback.

Don't get melee termies to counter nobs though, ideally you want a predator or a dreadnought. That will bleed the nobs without dying unless there's already AV. A few tankbustas can't kill a microed pred though and it will just mean lots of bled ork models and no req bleed for the SM, which means you can get vanguard on top of your other ASM which means endless knockback which means nobs are a piece of cake to defeat. I mean it's not like nobs alone can kill a tank, they really don't. A plasma cannon + heavy bolter dev can also counter nobs... Nobs are easy, they just run up to stuff and melee it. It only gets tough when you throw in good webo and hero usage but that's a different matter entirely...

[HandSome SoddiNg]

(Assault) Terminators are NOT hard-capped. It's just that you need to survive another 7 minutes before you can summon more. I'm not so sure whether normal terminators and assault terminators share cooldown as well. If you don't want to take the long way home, buy a Land Raider. It provides a reinforcement point and it is very effective against infantry. The grenade barrage gives damage and disruption against enemy infantry as well.

Frenzy does NOT give knockback immunity. Use battle cry thunder hammer, whirlwinds, plasma cannon devastators and other such sources of knockback. You'll want these to attack the large blob the orks have anyway. If left in melee, battle cry thunder hammer force commander and lightning claw terminators should easily be able to demolish the nobs. Vanguards, with merciless strike, thunder hammer and jump, provide lots of disruption against the nobs as well. Emperor's Fist/Assault Cannon Barrage on a dreadnought is also very useful.

Terminators get disadvantages because they have:
a. Super-heavy infantry armor
b. Teleport
c. 1800 health
d. Additional DPS

Shd be worth noting Dark-age tech Dreadnought + VG & 2 additional plasma guns tacs & TH FC/AT >> Nobz ,you just need to activate Battlecry the moment Nobz's frenzy is activated. Imo, VG although gud vs Nobz not necessarily needed ,just use regular ASM tie up Tankbustas,Emperor's fist the Nobz & pop FTE on LC termies after Frenzy's worn off to shred the Nobz .
Don't get LC immediately for AT yet ,save for Dreadnought out 1st
Flagbanner FC + Dread per kill inspiration & LC termies rekts Nobz painboy or not,except Warp vomit Weirdy is annoying & his Warpath conjunction with Nobz .

[krimson]

It is very difficult to get both dreads and termis at the same time hen the first nob squad hits the field. I am not sure if dread+ fc will win agaisnt nobs + warboss. Lets leave the rest of his army. Warboss with power claw is scary. Problem is his nob squad can retreat. I have a huge risk of losing my dread. Same issue comes with terminators. If i lose one model ..I need to teleport or risk a squad wipe. He on the other hand can retreat and come back to battle. either i miss the termis or fight with them at lower health in the next battle...by the time i get a dread or vanguard or something else...he has two nob squads...

it is not abt dps..its abt the lack of retreat and the extremely slow pace the termis take to go back to base, heal, reinforce, and then come back to battle..that makes them less effective..for such a huge price...why so many disadvantages..viz a viz nob squad..bcos of the lack of retreat..i cant really over extend bcos there is no escape route for me..that is why I am questioning the role of terminators...if they have a huge teleport range..then they can escape and come back to battle quickly...

[HandSome SoddiNg]

It is very difficult to get both dreads and termis at the same time hen the first nob squad hits the field. I am not sure if dread+ fc will win agaisnt nobs + warboss. Lets leave the rest of his army. Warboss with power claw is scary. Problem is his nob squad can retreat. I have a huge risk of losing my dread. Same issue comes with terminators. If i lose one model ..I need to teleport or risk a squad wipe. He on the other hand can retreat and come back to battle. either i miss the termis or fight with them at lower health in the next battle...by the time i get a dread or vanguard or something else...he has two nob squads...

it is not abt dps..its abt the lack of retreat and the extremely slow pace the termis take to go back to base, heal, reinforce, and then come back to battle..that makes them less effective..for such a huge price...why so many disadvantages..viz a viz nob squad..bcos of the lack of retreat..i cant really over extend bcos there is no escape route for me..that is why I am questioning the role of terminators...if they have a huge teleport range..then they can escape and come back to battle quickly...

A devastator squad to suppress the Nobz ,else go with Lib for VOT support on Devs & AT . But,seeing the circumstances .Imo,A Dread would"ve benefited better. Warboss himself buffing the shenanigans outta nobz with his globals can wipe stuff pretty niffty, Nobz weakness are Mainly KB disruption which apparently FC excels in . Your entire army retreated leaving your Termies isolated is really a bad mistake ,Termies curse has always been their Teleportion . You have to use it wisely & judge your timing, they have good hp regen compared to previously now . Torpid elaborates on dealing with Nobz well ,shd heed his advice

[BaptismByLoli]

Don't be afraid about spending your Red on FTE. Killing lotsa Ork Models and giving you map control is really worth it.

KB is your friend vs Melee. Learn who has it and use it well. Battlecry, Shotgun Blast, Merciless etc

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Flash]

Looks like I was beat to it, but a late game devastator can be really handy. While nobs have frenzy, it is 75 red to use. if they start using it every engagement, your opponent's supply can dwindle quickly. That means no roks, and less use yer choppaz

[lolzarz]

It is very difficult to get both dreads and termis at the same time hen the first nob squad hits the field. I am not sure if dread+ fc will win agaisnt nobs + warboss. Lets leave the rest of his army. Warboss with power claw is scary. Problem is his nob squad can retreat. I have a huge risk of losing my dread. Same issue comes with terminators. If i lose one model ..I need to teleport or risk a squad wipe. He on the other hand can retreat and come back to battle. either i miss the termis or fight with them at lower health in the next battle...by the time i get a dread or vanguard or something else...he has two nob squads...

it is not abt dps..its abt the lack of retreat and the extremely slow pace the termis take to go back to base, heal, reinforce, and then come back to battle..that makes them less effective..for such a huge price...why so many disadvantages..viz a viz nob squad..bcos of the lack of retreat..i cant really over extend bcos there is no escape route for me..that is why I am questioning the role of terminators...if they have a huge teleport range..then they can escape and come back to battle quickly...

Use your assault terminator/dreadnought with your melee units. It really helps with the DPS. And yes, it is about DPS. If you destroy the enemy, you don't need to retreat for obvious reasons. Dark Age of Technology is very useful, hopefully for equally obvious reasons. Battle cry also works.

Also: BUY. A. LAND. RAIDER.

[MaxPower]

Not sure which game mode you are playing (I am a team game player only), but If I go with melee terminators I make damn sure that my whole army is centered around making them as effective as possible. Which means either a Land Raider as a support vehicle to reeinforce them in field (reduced retreat path) or a librarian with all his upgrades.

And ofc the FC with TH and Standard, once you have that kind of army its pretty hard for the ork to kill one of your Terminators.

If I am not able to field a LRR or a librarian any time soon but I want the staying power of terminators, I get the ranged variant and kill the orks from afar.

But sometimes I miss the old Chaos Rising LC Terminators that could solo an entire army. gngngihihihih

[Flash]

I have no idea what kind of sound effect that was supposed to be haha

[Torpid]

It is very difficult to get both dreads and termis at the same time hen the first nob squad hits the field.

No it isn't. Orks don't get any significant tech lead vs SM whatsoever. Also, T1 is where SM have the biggest advantage against orks since sluggas are soooo much worse there and there's no weirdboy to basically make your ASM useless. In T2 you really have to rely on vehicles orks, either a razor or a dread, certainly wouldn't recommend a razor vs a mekboy but vs a WB/KN it is good. You use the vehicle to bleed the ork like crazy without conceding bleed yourself. Even if you aren't sending the dread forward because they have double bustas and a power klaw warboss, the prospect of it being there behind your sterns means that the stromboyz can't jump forward without risking instant death to fist of the emperor+nade in retreat. You just let your sterns pick off shoota models incessantly, one by one until there's so little left you can just walk forward into their blob. This is basically what happened in this game:

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=297248

Very clearly orks don't have a tech lad vs SM. Granted Noisy certainly wasn't at his best in this game. Then again nor was Soul, throwing away his predators due to bad micro and nothing else. It illustrates my point though.

Basically, in your saying that orks have the superior T1 and that they always get nobs out before you can get out a dread+termies/pred you're conceding that you're going to lose because that shouldn't be the case so at that point, yes, of course you've lost. Nobs clearly aren't the issue here.

[BaptismByLoli]

I have no idea what kind of sound effect that was supposed to be haha

It's German

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Bahamut]

a painboy can make ASM useless even in t1. But yeah, in general SM got the advantage in t1... The problem comes once squads start getting levels and slugga nob and things like that hit the field

[Forestradio]

I think the painboy nerfs will solve a lot of nobz issues. When Noisy was using the mek, he was combining the painboy speed implant+heal, mek heal, supa tuff beam, etc on nobz and they literally were immortal, you couldn't stop them, you could only run away. It's not fun when you bring nobz down to half hp and they pop frenzy and get healed back to full

On terminator topic, I think that reducing their red cost to call in (say down to 300?) and/or the power cost of their weapon upgrades (claws, flamer, cyclone, cannon) could be looked into.

FC uses the thunder hammer/LC termies to try and deal with nobz, TM has plasma/signum in addition to the ven dread (melee resistance hype), with apo you're stuck with predators and kiting, but that's more a case of apo late game sucking compared to the other two SM heroes.

[Crewfinity]

nobs have plenty of counters.
devs, pdevs, shotgun blast, thunder hammer, dreadnoughts, plasma guns, LC termies, vanguard, predators....

it sounds like the ork player is simply supporting his nobs better than you're supporting your termies. both are awesome face shredder assault units, but they'll still get owned if they dont have anything supporting them. just use all your knockback and inspiration and they'll start to bleed the hell out of the ork player.

honestly it sounds like a lot of your problems are stemming from poor performance in the early/mid game, which is allowing the other guy to start spamming nobs without you being able to counter them. but take it from everyone else, nobs aren't OP. they're powerful for sure, but they have clear cut counters and are really expensive to kit out and support.

[Tex]

Just always need to remember that nobs are a super unit too. Fully kitted they cost only slightly less than an avatar, and are completely 1 dimensional.

Terminator inspiration is completely underused I feel. These guys are so good at focusing down low hp units and stacking up buffs very quickly. It only takes a few procs and all of a sudden, nobs become very very squishy to the rest of your army.

[Raffa]

Nobz are the most power-expensive unit in the game when fully upgraded. Actually up until a few patches ago I thought they weren't cost-efficient at all, esp. compared to kommandos or a battlewagon. Yes, Nobz should tear shit up when they get into melee because they are a melee superiority unit countered by knockback, stun and immobilise effects.

As for the title question, well they're different races, different units, different armor types, different damage types, one of them can retreat and the other can't lol...the list goes on. Apples and Oranges man, you can't compare them.