2vs2/3vs3: How to balance them without touch 1vs1

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Lost Son of Nikhel
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2vs2/3vs3: How to balance them without touch 1vs1

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Sat 06 Sep, 2014 6:51 pm

Yes, I know. This mod is focused on 1vs1 games, but as all we know teamgames (2vs2 or 3vs3) are very popular (and fun!), but at the same time are sometimes very unbalanced. 2 x WB both with bosspoles, Hyve Tirant with Improved Synapse + GK Improved "We are the hammer!"

But... How to balance it (or at least try it) without touch 1vs1? Modifying some AOE buffs/abilities.

Any AOE buff/ ability of the game could be changed to affect only your troops, allied similar troops or all friendly troops. I suggest to see which abilities could made nasty/too much OP combos and modify them only to affect your squads.

Opinions?
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Re: 2vs2/3vs3: How to balance them without touch 1vs1

Postby Ace of Swords » Sat 06 Sep, 2014 6:53 pm

No what would even be the point of team games if you remove that little skill that requires combining up abilities and globals.
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Re: 2vs2/3vs3: How to balance them without touch 1vs1

Postby Torpid » Sat 06 Sep, 2014 7:26 pm

It doesn't take skill to use overpowered combinations lol.

What separates team games from 1v1 is the map structure and difference in the eco. The reduced effectiveness of melee due to increased ranged focus fire potential. The lesser amount of potential flanks. Then there's one's ability to time attacks well with one's allies and to have awareness of what is going on on the other side of the map away from oneself even though the big engagements in 3v3 that you fight at harder to manage courtesy of their being more units to do battle with in each engagement.

I agree with homogenising abilities to make them only affect your own units. It still makes mass damage debuffs amazing though.
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Re: 2vs2/3vs3: How to balance them without touch 1vs1

Postby Ace of Swords » Sat 06 Sep, 2014 7:39 pm

Ofc it takes skill, have you ever played a game that requires teamwork? If you don't time yourself with your allies those "op" combos will be mostly useless it also takes your awarness and be ready to face possible buffs that don't belong to the commander you are facing.
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Re: 2vs2/3vs3: How to balance them without touch 1vs1

Postby Vapor » Sat 06 Sep, 2014 7:43 pm

I think there is a difference between mass AoE buffs like boss pole or WATH (as mentioned in the OP) and one-off buffs like Apo heal, coruscating flames, etc. I don't really have a problem with the former, but the latter obviously should not be touched.

Also, it strikes me as odd that race-specific buffs like waagh and nid synapse work on allies. Like you're being rewarded for all using the same faction. I wouldn't mind that being changed, especially since it's specific to only a few races and is generally just AoE bullshit.
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Re: 2vs2/3vs3: How to balance them without touch 1vs1

Postby Helios » Sat 06 Sep, 2014 8:35 pm

One idea to throw out there just real quick, make it like Stubbornness/Aura of Discipline. The more teammates the weaker the buff.
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Re: 2vs2/3vs3: How to balance them without touch 1vs1

Postby Lesten » Sat 06 Sep, 2014 9:56 pm

Yes! Holy crap, yes!

I've actually wanted to suggest something like this for a long time. I definitely think you should only be able to use buffs on your own units (or at least only the same race). Same goes for things like relay beacons, brood nests, tunnels, webway gates and so forth. It would make A LOT more sense and I think it would be much better balance-wise.
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Re: 2vs2/3vs3: How to balance them without touch 1vs1

Postby Torpid » Sat 06 Sep, 2014 10:59 pm

Helios wrote:One idea to throw out there just real quick, make it like Stubbornness/Aura of Discipline. The more teammates the weaker the buff.


That's not a bad idea.
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Re: 2vs2/3vs3: How to balance them without touch 1vs1

Postby Bahamut » Sun 07 Sep, 2014 1:26 am

completely awful idea, not even thought through at all

Sure, lets nerf any cross race synergy but let's keep all the passive debuffs like trophy rack, demoralization and mark target/doom intact so now some races will be totally useless and others will get even stronger than what they are now

G freaking G

What cross race combos are totally nuts? i dare say none... avatar + banner + doom + nobs? khrone havocs with marked target or banner + inspiration from LC? all those have their early prevention and late counters
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Re: 2vs2/3vs3: How to balance them without touch 1vs1

Postby Sub_Zero » Sun 07 Sep, 2014 5:17 am

Yes, I don't approve it too, I like all these combos.
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Re: 2vs2/3vs3: How to balance them without touch 1vs1

Postby HandSome SoddiNg » Sun 07 Sep, 2014 6:10 am

Sub_Zero wrote:Yes, I don't approve it too, I like all these combos.


Do you approve of 3 Weirdy stacking warpath ?Heck that Orkz killing spree hasn't be abused for a while..
or Maybe 3x FC stacking flag banners buffed with fte + Power sword BC :D. There only a couple combinations/exploitation yet to discover.
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Re: 2vs2/3vs3: How to balance them without touch 1vs1

Postby Sub_Zero » Sun 07 Sep, 2014 6:52 am

First of all 3 v 3 engagements are so rare, on some maps they are not possible at all. So it is not that bad.
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Re: 2vs2/3vs3: How to balance them without touch 1vs1

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Sun 07 Sep, 2014 8:27 am

Sub_Zero wrote:First of all 3 v 3 engagements are so rare, on some maps they are not possible at all. So it is not that bad.

There isn't no need to 3vs3 engagements. I wrote 2 examples in the OP with only two commanders working together, which is a very common situation.

I don't see which is the problem to see which abilities or AOE abilities are OP in teamgames and change them to work only with the same race or only with your army. I mean, we already have abilities which only works with X race or your army and the synergy isn't broken, simply the ability is too OP if you put in on other squad for which this ability isn't designed. For example, Painboy's Speshul Git Sauce. Or Khorne worshipp. Let's imagine a Tyrannid blob under this buff.
"Pater, peccavi in caelum et coram te; iam non sum dignus vocari filius tuus". Dixit autem pater: "manducemus et epulemur, quia hic filius meus mortuus erat et revixit, perierat et inventus est"

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Re: 2vs2/3vs3: How to balance them without touch 1vs1

Postby Lesten » Sun 07 Sep, 2014 11:18 am

Every time I see an ork unit reinforce at a relay beacon, or a tyranid brood using a webway gate, or a brother-captain buffing a chaos space marine, I die a little inside, and I'm sure so is the 40k universe.

But the lore aside (yes, I know it doesn't matter) it seems like it would be much easier to balance team games if your buffs only effected your own stuff.
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Re: 2vs2/3vs3: How to balance them without touch 1vs1

Postby Dark Riku » Sun 07 Sep, 2014 1:34 pm

Teamgames can only be done in teams of the same race!
Problum solved :Kappa:
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Re: 2vs2/3vs3: How to balance them without touch 1vs1

Postby Forestradio » Sun 07 Sep, 2014 3:13 pm

Just had a game where Noisy used Hard Boyz on my Chaos Terminators so they could cap a point under pressure. The ability to do this is priceless and rewards good map awareness.

Also, I still want to use Melee Synapse+Mind Blades+Might of Titan+UYC on a Genestealer squad for 80+10+10+10+60=170 melee skill :)
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Re: 2vs2/3vs3: How to balance them without touch 1vs1

Postby HandSome SoddiNg » Sun 07 Sep, 2014 3:29 pm

Radio the Forest wrote:Just had a game where Noisy used Hard Boyz on my Chaos Terminators so they could cap a point under pressure. The ability to do this is priceless and rewards good map awareness.

Also, I still want to use Melee Synapse+Mind Blades+Might of Titan+UYC on a Genestealer squad for 80+10+10+10+60=170 melee skill :)


Catalyst + Ravenar damage aura + melee synaspe on GSB to top that,put FTE/MB to further overbuff the GSB and watch the carnage..can be done to sum melee elitists
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Re: 2vs2/3vs3: How to balance them without touch 1vs1

Postby Barrogh » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 7:54 am

Just to throw it out there, DoW1 didn't allow your buffs to affect allies. Interactions and combos were still possible though, granted it was limited to stuff that affects enemy or everyone (so you still could stack Marauder's smoke screen with Dais' force filed on something like scourges for lulz as Smoke screen was neutral environmental effect that affected everyone, friend or foe).

Pretty sure back then people didn't consider it to be a huge loss, although it was a different game...

Funny thing is that I don't feel that globals or single-taget buffs are issues here although it's not like potential isn't huge.
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