Raptor Upgrade (balance discussion only)

[Raffa]

Please no fanboy comments here (e.g. trololol why don’t they have 2 talons each lololol). A lot of effort and thought has been put into this so extensive replies and thoughtful comments are welcome. Basically I’d love to hear from you if you have something constructive to offer


Warp Talons


Intro.

T3 upgrade for Raptors. Resets levelling. Meltaguns upgrade cannot be purchased after Warp Talons, and vice versa. Champion does not need to be purchased before this upgrade can be bought. Squad is immobile while upgrading (ideally use the upgrade animation for nm/havoc/csm but with a black fx?) and does not reinforce itself when upgraded. No upgrades, except for purchasing the Champion.


Stats/levelling

Any differences between standard models and Champion given in brackets. Only key, individual stats given (nothing for suppression resistance, hp regen, etc). Levelling is identical to raptors.

Hp – 350 (400)
Energy – 100
Melee skill – 70
Population – 20
Cost – 150/45 (reasons below)
Reinforce Cost – 83/7
Upkeep – 12.75
XP value – 260
Death – +22


Weapons

All weapons are default.

CSM Lightning Claw Raptor (40 power_melee dps) – vanilla Warp Talons only
CSM Daemon Maul (50 heavy_melee dps) – Champion only
CSM Plasma Pistol Raptor (7.82 plasma dps) – vanilla Warp Talons only


Abilities

Melee Resistance Aura. Default ability.
Jump (Chaos Raptors) – suppress on landing. Default ability.
Daemonic Fury – as it is now. Champion-only ability.


Misc.

This is an interesting choice that boosts damage and to an extent versatility, but still requires a lot of thought least of all because of the cost. This locks the meltaguns upgrade so there is no threat from the opponent’s point of view of flying meltabomb/meltaguns landing next to their predator or whatever. As a bonus, it finally gives the Daemon Maul a purpose in life.

Whilst it’s impossible to avoid comparisons with Vanguards, there are deliberately some noticeable differences. The most obvious is they come with Heavy Melee right out of the gate (the main reasons the cost is higher) but they are not a free reinforce when upgraded and the Champion is not a permanent member of the squad. Ofc they have differences in their respective jumps, hp and damage but that’s beside the point. Vanguards also do not sacrifice the potential to become hard av when they upgrade, whereas Raptors do.

The very significant 150/45 cost is going to set you back quite a bit late game when you will be considering buying a game-changing unit. You also do not get a free reinforce (which is almost always used to offset the cost of the Vanguard upgrade for asm) and your heavy melee is not permanent. It’s 100/25 if you lose the Champion. On the flipside, you aren’t spending the 100/30 on a power fist. You also now at least soft counter all targets.

I anticipate the biggest sticking points will be over the cost, damage of the squad and the increased versatility they give the Chaos late game. As I have stated above, the sizable cost is both to account for the potential to have heavy melee without paying anything extra besides the Champion, the increased power melee damage AND the fact that it does not reinforce lost members when bought (yes it is necessary to factor this in given the regularity with which the Vanguard upgrade is used to do save some resources by not reinforcing: something which I am not a fan of).

I would also argue that Warp Talons are still categorically different to Bloodletters, and it is a huge simplification to say they are very similar because they both jump and have power melee. Bloodletters can disrupt very well and are daemons with all the benefits of worship that entails, and can warp walk their way out of trouble. If anyone really wants a dissertation on why in my view the two units are different and how Bloodletters would not suffer from Warp Talons being implemented, then I will write you one. Because Bloodletters would still be a very key, useful unit and downright more powerful than Warp Talons in many circumstances despite the differences in cost.

If it needs to be stated openly – Warp Talons are not just Vanguards for Chaos. There are a lot of nuances that differentiate between the two units so unless you have a very good reason for it please do not give me any bullcrap about the two being basically the same thing


Strengths

As a concise summary on these, consider the ways TCSM are superior at range to CSM (better against all targets, but in particular commanders, HI and to a lesser extent vehicles), but are not tougher or faster. That is how Warp Talons are superior to Raptors in melee. It may seem a strange comparison but it’s probably the best way to demonstrate it – both are also great at bullying and bleeding weaker units.


Weaknesses

The cost stands out most – you’re sacrificing something else and going out of your way to have Warp Talons and it’s not necessarily going to be the best investment to make; it almost certainly won’t be unless your Raptors have levelled at least once already.

For those who might get carried away by the dps of Warp Talons, they are not nearly a dedicated melee unit and only have one model that can do a special attack, so against superior melee squads they will not be able to stall with specials and with 350 hp are going to bleed models at 83/7 a pop unless engagements are judged properly. As a consequence of rarely knocking enemies down, Warp Talons are not going to have as many opportunities to gib squads outright by knocking them down and getting those precious extra hits in whilst they get up and retreat. Given how notorious jump troops are for taking a second mini-jump when chasing units down, I have a feeling that if these were implemented, a complaint would likely arise from how they are poor at chasing and how many models make it out of combat with them alive when retreating, despite the Warp Talons’ dps.

All sources of disruption are probably the hardest counter to them. Knockback leaves this large investment very vulnerable. I have a feeling people will overlook the fact that as they will only jump once (unless they are lv 3/4 and don’t use the maul ability), if you can lure them into a bad spot they can’t just press an ESC button. As they suppress on landing, there is nothing to stop melee units that they land on just hitting them with no penalty at all (unlike stormboyz/asm).


Conclusion

Warp Talons have a lot of potential, but will only really be worth the cost if you have levelled your Raptors already otherwise your resources are probably going to be better spent elsewhere. They are actually quite a niche choice late game and you are just handicapping yourself by sinking the resources into them if Raptors could do the same job you want them to. They are best used as a damage and versatility boost to levelled Raptors. If you want to suppress a ranged blob but don’t really need the extra damage then you should have enough common sense not to buy this expensive upgrade. If you think an uncountered vehicle is coming or you need more av, then meltaguns are clearly a better choice as you still have good melee damage with them and are good against all targets at close range. But sometimes you just need to hit stuff that bit harder, and that’s where Warp Talons come in. They will severely punish you, indirectly, if you pick them when you should be picking or saving for something else which could really tip the balance of a game, but if they are situationally the best choice and you take a chance on them then they will be very rewarding.


P.S. This is actually a concise expression of what I have to say on Warp Talons, so if more is needed (eg strengths/existing counters from each race, yes even gk) I have a ton more to say

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

As I said in the Raptor's Jump thread, i would like to see a Warp Talons upgrade for Chaos Raptors, but IMHO there are some issues to solve before.

- Even with your good reasonings (no free reinforce, heavy_melee damage for default to the Aspiring Champion), this upgrade is going to look like a Chaos' Veteran Vanguard one.

- Level reset with the upgrade? And the reinforce cost is going to be raised to 83/7? for that high cost? And you still needs to buy the AC if you lose it? No worth IMHO.

- Even if you don't want to see it, Bloodletters and current Chaos Raptors are in a fragile balance: Chaos Raptors give more CC and disruption thanks to their land's suppression, their jump is a bit more difficult to avoid, their armour type make them more tanky against ranged no-plasma damage or races (orks, Tyrannids...) and have higher health; on the other hand, Bloodletters have greater synergy with the Workshipp, are great against power_melee damage/HI or SHI squads for their power_melee damage and their phase shift ability is good not only to retreat safely or avoid too much damage, but force your opponent micro to focus fire another squad and always are a threat even if they are phaseshifted. Apart of other things, like the lower cost pop or the lower req reinforce cost of the Bloodletters.

With this change, this balance is going to be a bit broken: with the Raptors (Warp Talons) doing almost the same damage as Bloodletters (and maybe more, depending of the target for the Heavy_melee Daemon Maul damage) maybe is going to make Bloodletters more niche.

But I would add more: KCSM could see their role even more niche, for the new damage increase and damage type. Is going to be neccessary the KCSM, when you have the Warp Talons with more damage and jump to avoid damage/supress?

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I agree that Daemon Maul needs a huge buff. To increase the difference between Bloodletters and Chaos Raptors, and not overlap the KCSM role, and at the same time, give a bit more versatility.

What about if when they land and suppress a squad, the affected squad/s also receives a debuff, which make them do less damage and receive more damage? Something like demoralize effect.

[dance commander]

@Nikhel

You're forgetting some things in your comparison to bloodletters, bloodletters will still deal more damage, will reinforce for much less, have better synergy with the rest of the chaos army (worship, even though PC worship doesn't give any special effect compared to the other two) don't have a leader they need to repurchase, have much less upkeep, and above all cost much less.

Not only would the warp talon upgrade (as described by raffa) be too expensive for what it does, but it would also not be very useful because well, bloodletters already fill that role, it's not like raptors have a melee charge to chase better retreating units, they pretty much behave the same way.

It needs something else, I don't know if it's power melee weapons for the whole squad, some kind of flat damage increase, another ability or whatever, but it needs to do something else, as it is now it's absolutely useless for its price, and the upgrade suggested by Raffa does something that other chaos units already do, while not being reasonably priced.

[Spartan717]

@Nikhel

You're forgetting some things in your comparison to bloodletters, bloodletters will still deal more damage, will reinforce for much less, have better synergy with the rest of the chaos army (worship, even though PC worship doesn't give any special effect compared to the other two) don't have a leader they need to repurchase, have much less upkeep, and above all cost much less.

Not only would the warp talon upgrade (as described by raffa) be too expensive for what it does, but it would also not be very useful because well, bloodletters already fill that role, it's not like raptors have a melee charge to chase better retreating units, they pretty much behave the same way.

It needs something else, I don't know if it's power melee weapons for the whole squad, some kind of flat damage increase, another ability or whatever, but it needs to do something else, as it is now it's absolutely useless for its price, and the upgrade suggested by Raffa does something that other chaos units already do, while not being reasonably priced.

Agreed. I don't want to see raptors becoming the same as bloodletters.

I suggest a minor damage boost with the upgrade as well as an ability to stun and knock back enemies for a duration (ie. like the warboss' stomp ability or more preferably the chaos lord's sweeping doom ability when he is equiped with the blood maul). The reason I suggest this is that it would synergise well the raptor's suppression on jump as they will be able to defend them selves from melee squads charging at them, hence allowing them to tie up other range/set up squads or retreat.

Alternatively, increasing the maul chance of knock back (like thunder hammer) would make it more attractive against infantry and yet not outperform bloodletters and Khorne marines.

[Raffa]

The biggest concern here seems to be that implementing Warp Talons would make Bloodletters more niche by performing the same role, but better. Let me assure you this is not the case – actually I’m quite happy this point was raised as I anticipated it coming.

Bloodletters and Raptors are jump infantry and are Chaos units. That is where the similarities end. Raptors are also cc, HI and can be used as emergency tanks if necessary, though it’s not their strongpoint. Bloodletters are so much more than just jump units – under worship they are very tanky, hard to wipe because of phase shift (which also makes them a unique, situational threat as Nikhel mentioned), have a huge range on teleport, power melee and are very disruptive. Out of all those, the only extra similarity Warp Talons would share with Bloodletters would be that 3 models have power melee, rather than 1 for Raptors. Not to mention that many counters are different as one is HI and the other normal infantry…all these differences together have just huge impacts on how each unit performs and their respective functions. You really think Caeltos would have put in a unit like Raptors if he thought there was any danger they would be fulfilling the same role?

@Nikhel
You, and the others, are really overlooking how this is a T3 upgrade. I agree with you completely it would definitely make Bloodletters more niche if it was T2 but you cannot compare the raw overall potential of a T2 unit with an even vaguely similar T3 one and expect the former to outperform the latter. Same applies to kcsm. Remember that by T3 if you bought those units as long-term investments then they will almost certainly have levelled, with all the benefits that entails (especially for the kcsm), whilst the Warp Talons will start off scratch.

@dance
For the reasons given above, they are not just fulfilling the same role as any other chaos unit(s) but in fact a new, almost jack-of-all-trades but master-of-none one in terms of who they can hunt. Unlike Bloodletters (power melee/disruption specialists) and kcsm (who chase almost like shees, except shees are more common and there’s so much elder hate)

So to summarise, Warp Talons give Raptors extra power melee (plus heavy melee…) which does make them marginally more similar to Bloodletters, but that is one extra similarity when there are still a whole world of differences. If you think Raptors are too similar to Bloodletters then start a thread about it, but I would strongly disagree with you. Making these two units ever so slightly more similar does not change the fact that they are still profoundly different units.


The cost is the other concern, however this can be adjusted in due course and for now I’d like to focus on getting people to see how this unit would give Raptors another dimension whilst not making either Bloodletters or kcsm more niche.

[sk4zi]

whatz about giving the bloodletters an upgrade whixh gives them their heavy melee damage back like it was in former times ...
im really sad about they are no more an av option.

[Torpid]

whatz about giving the bloodletters an upgrade which gives them their heavy melee damage back like it was in former times ...
im really sad about they are no more an av option.

Heck no, chaos are scary enough as it is. Even with it costing $, it's just too good. They counter too much with heavy melee, set up teams, t3 tanks, transports, melee (under worship).

[Commissar Yarrick]

I think chaos has already what it needs... In my opinion, artillery is one thing they lack if nothing else.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

tdread works quite well as artillery. doesn't do much damage to infantry but the suppression is super good. they also have blast master. what chaos doesn't really have is active abilities.

[Commissar Yarrick]

tdread works quite well as artillery. doesn't do much damage to infantry but the suppression is super good. they also have blast master. what chaos doesn't really have is active abilities.

I totally forgot about the blast master. Thanks for reminder.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

they're kinda rare to see; i think because the require NM and then the upgrade. NM aren't hugely common either but i'm not going to complain about that.

[dance commander]

they're kinda rare to see; i think because the require NM and then the upgrade. NM aren't hugely common either but i'm not going to complain about that.

It's because it's not worth it, they have less range and deal waaay less damage compared to plasma devs, the kb on the shot traveling is more a nuisance than helpful, they cost more and cost power, and they cost power to reinforce.

It's better to leave in their default state and slip them in during an engagement to shut down powerful ranged infantry if they are still around in the late game, blastmaster just sucks.

[Codex]

I completely disagree that Blastmaster isn't worth it. Being a unit upgrade is a double edged sword- in the end vanilla Noise Marines can only scale so far and the fact it's an upgrade allows you to get levelled blastmasters for serious damage, whereas any other artillery unit has to come in at level 1. Compared to a plasdev, it does slightly less damage (not a lot less as you claim), has a faster projectile speed (which means it hits more reliably), has the same damage type (plasma cannon), and knocks all infantry down in its path (which can be a plus as well as disadvantageous. It requires good positioning to use well.

[Asmon]

I second this, Blastmaster is awesome. It will deal extremely high damage to tanks that come towards you with full rear armor hit (it can 2-shots predators) and it's like the best anti melee artillery squad.

It is only overshadowed by the Heavy Plasma when you are targetting ground and the enemy does not move too fast.

The knockback is a good advantage when you use it properly. For example if one of your units is hunted down you can walk toward your BM and dodge the shot at the last moment with a side-step. You will evade damage while the enemy will get hit in the face.

[JuhwannX]

I standardly don't use the BM (Setup Teams dont' fight my style ) But when I have, it's never failed me. I don't see how NM's are seemingly becoming niche in peoples chaos play, they seem perfectly fine to me. They're almost a requirement when fighting things like nids in T1, who have Upwards to 3 ways to get heavy ranged fire out in the first few minutes of the match. (I.E. Raveners, Terms, RA, BSWB). And when you actually get them, it's honestly difficult for them to NOT hit. I'd like to see chaos get more units that can have artillery damage, or get wargear that makes them like artillery and aren't call-ins. For example the terminator, Which costs power, Req, and Red, and then requires an upgrade to get out it's terminator like damage output.

Also I've noticed people starting to act as though the Chaos are a bit overpowered at this point. Any ideas to add new units for them, or to make some of their upgrades better, are always met with a swift "No" or a "Let's keep them the way they are." The only consensus has been that the blood maul needs a buff, but everyone is being really iffy about how much of a buff. I feel their Merciless Strike like ability, (Cause I can't remember the name ATM) should act more like an AOE knockback to give the raptors some necessary breathing room, compared to something that knocks back a specific squad, or that can be dodged easily. Basically the AOE knockback of the CL's bloodmaul, which is one of the most niche upgrades I've ever seen, since virtually nobody uses it and would rather go for the lightning claws that have more utility and give you more, in the long run. I would also say the maul should give the other guys in the squad power melee weapons, that do more than just get laughed at by every other squad in the game. It's like the raptors are bringing lego's to show and tell, while everyone else is bringing dogs, cats, and other more interesting things. They'll just get laughed at.

Also. Can it be agreed that the maul needs a flat DPS boost? I know everyone states the whole "ASM vs. Raptors = Close fight/Raptors win." But that's with the idea that both sides have a sarge and all of that. And I can't believe the raptors would win. The ASM have better health, They tank more, they have merciless strike in T2, compared to T3 for Raptors.

I don't know if anyone can do a vacuum fight of raptors vs. ASM to see which would win in a 1v1 fight, at max level both with sargeants, and the Raptors have their BM.

[Dark Riku]

Don't forget that the raptors do more dps than asm. And have better aggressive support in the form of heretics with doomblasts to aid them in melee.
And other chaos units.

[Commissar Yarrick]

Don't forget that the raptors do more dps than asm. And have better aggressive support in the form of heretics with doomblasts to aid them in melee.
And other chaos units.

As well as the ASM gain support from various support sources. Well known drill...
They sacrifice health cap to deal damage but it is a two edged sword. When ASM are more beefier and can stay on the fight for longer period, given the time and situation, than their traitor counterparts.

[Ace of Swords]

Don't forget that the raptors do more dps than asm. And have better aggressive support in the form of heretics with doomblasts to aid them in melee.
And other chaos units.

As well as the ASM gain support from various support sources. Well known drill...
They sacrifice health cap to deal damage but it is a two edged sword. When ASM are more beefier and can stay on the fight for longer period, given the time and situation, than their traitor counterparts.

ASM are the spearhead for the SM army, the raptors are further melee support/damage/control of the Chaos army, simple as that.
And the raptor will still benefit from support from the chaos heroes (harness of rage,mucus,sword of flame and so on.)

[Commissar Yarrick]

Don't forget that the raptors do more dps than asm. And have better aggressive support in the form of heretics with doomblasts to aid them in melee.
And other chaos units.

As well as the ASM gain support from various support sources. Well known drill...
They sacrifice health cap to deal damage but it is a two edged sword. When ASM are more beefier and can stay on the fight for longer period, given the time and situation, than their traitor counterparts.

ASM are the spearhead for the SM army, the raptors are further melee support/damage/control of the Chaos army, simple as that.
And the raptor will still benefit from support from the chaos heroes (harness of rage,mucus,sword of flame and so on.)

Well that was more simplistic way of putting it than I thought. Perhaps I had too much thinking involved.

[Black Relic]

I think Bloodletter should have their heavy melee back as an upgrade. Or have it similar to raptors and their Melta guns. They would gain a benefit in one area about another would decrease to balance it. Maybe if there was an upgrade that changed their power melee to heavy melee the bloodletters would have their health reduced back into what it was in retail 250 per model. Since in retail bloodletters were not a reliable unit (unless with worship) i thought it was well balanced out. But maybe if their is an upgrade. Lower the damage they do to 38-40 since they did about 45 heavy melee in retail if my memory serves me.

[Nurland]

This is a thread concerning Raptors. Not Bloodletters. And BL dps in retail was 38 heavy_melee. Temporary letters had 50 dps iirc. Atm they have a high power_melee dps which is 45 so they do fairly soft AV damage.

Current Bludlettahz spell R-A-P-E to most other infantry if supported properly, they are quite cheap and Chaos already has a jump unit capable of av. 3 of the 4 Kayos T2 units are already more or less av so I don't think Letters need their heavy_melee back.