Using spotter shells into the fog of war

[Phoenix]

Why isnt this possible yet?

It can be really frustrating to know an enemys set-up position but still not being able to use the spotter shell without moving one of your units/the spotters themselves into the set-ups firing arc and risking them to get surpressed.

Some builds just dont include sentinels to scout ahead and sometimes there is no LoS blocker you can use to get the sight without getting harmed.

[Bahamut]

it is possible to use smoke shell but not the other one, i guess it's intentional

[Helios]

I agree but hey... balance.

[Surprise Attack!]

You can't drop manticore shells on fow either. It would kinda be ridiculous on 3v3s like argus desert gate where you know exactly where the enemy is going to be most of the time.

[Sub_Zero]

You can't drop manticore shells on fow either. It would kinda be ridiculous on 3v3s like argus desert gate where you know exactly where the enemy is going to be most of the time.

A manticore's barrage is 10 times scarier than a shell of spotters. The talk here is about spotters, your entire thought is not correct because it is completely irrelevant to the subject. Spotters are not manticores, I think it will be justifiable to allow them to bombard any position.

[Helios]

It makes no sense that they can do one but not the other, from either an in-game or balance perspective. Let's also consider that they are spotters... So if they can call in mortar shots from beyond their sight range, you're essentially assigning spotters for your spotters. What??

To be honest, these kind of situations, where units have more range or can obtain more range, than they have sight have always been confusing. You have Siege tanks in SC2 with 1 more range than sight (but we can sorta justify this one since it's a tank, tanks don't exctly have tons of communications and recon equipment, especially when it has to transform) you had spectres and juggernaughts in Command and Conquer 3. In that example, snipers can spot for juggernaughts and give GLOBAL range to them, so you would see juggernaughts firing through mountains and other terrain since it was a linear shot.... and it looked weird. Shadow teams would drop beacons for spectres who are true artillery, firing in an arc, but they too would fire anywhere they wanted to on the map. In both of these instances, (balance aside) why is it that you can't just take pot shots into the fog of war and hope you get lucky?

[Surprise Attack!]

You can't drop manticore shells on fow either. It would kinda be ridiculous on 3v3s like argus desert gate where you know exactly where the enemy is going to be most of the time.

A manticore's barrage is 10 times scarier than a shell of spotters. The talk here is about spotters, your entire thought is not correct because it is completely irrelevant to the subject. Spotters are not manticores, I think it will be justifiable to allow them to bombard any position.

Sorry if there was any confusion, but I wasn't arguing one way or another, I was just pointing something out. It's the same mechanic as the manti shell, and for obvious reasons the manti isn't able to fire into FoW, so it might have been designed in a way that doesn't allow it to be fired into FoW, and this was overlooked because the spotter squad never existed in the first place and a rebalance to allow them to fire into FoW was never needed.

My bad for not spelling that out.

[lolzarz]

You had spectres and juggernaughts in Command and Conquer 3. In that example, snipers can spot for juggernaughts and give GLOBAL range to them, so you would see juggernaughts firing through mountains and other terrain since it was a linear shot.... and it looked weird. Shadow teams would drop beacons for spectres who are true artillery, firing in an arc, but they too would fire anywhere they wanted to on the map. In both of these instances, (balance aside) why is it that you can't just take pot shots into the fog of war and hope you get lucky?

While Juggernauts and Specters do have less LoS than range, the bombard ability you mentioned simply doesn't work that way.

Juggernauts and Specters are essentially motorized set-up artillery teams. Think of them like plasma cannon devastators, in the sense that they fire automatically and at a relatively slow pace. Bombard, on the other hand, is an activated ability. Therefore, snipers don't actually give my juggernauts unlimited range; it allows my juggernauts to activate an ability with unlimited range; a different fire mode, if you will. This is necessary because juggernauts normally track individual units, but fire on an area of terrain with the ability.

So getting back to the spotters, why not simply match their ability range with their sight range? Surely you can't report coordinates on an area you cannot see?

[Torpid]

So getting back to the spotters, why not simply match their ability range with their sight range? Surely you can't report coordinates on an area you cannot see?

Because that would be massively OP?

One of IGs biggest weaknesses is their poor sight range. It results in their foes being able to kill sentinels/chimeras through ambushing them and overwhelming them with firepower all of a sudden - because as we all know sustained fighting vs IG is exactly what the IG wants so they can bleed you while not really bleeding themselves.

Being able to ambush isolated IG squads and defeat them in 1v1 combat without them seeing it coming is so damn vital... Flanking is exactly what IG needs to be good at to be unbeatable. Having spotters having a sight range of 65 would be so utterly balls to the wall OP it would make khorne worship kasrkin (and not just because of the huge nature of that number).

[Torpid]

There's no issue here with regards to spotters anyway IMO. The unit is fantastic as it is - it lets you instantly force off enemy squads without them being able to do anything in retaliation and it is a squad that doesn't bleed you on a race that is all about ensuring you bleed less than your foe does.

If you want to spot where the foe is to get your mortar shell in then use your sentinel for it in T1 where the piercing damage will barely scratch the sentinels HI armour; else use your hero -> Use a stubbornness LC to tank the damage while "spotting", or send him in from a side really quickly using that LBE ability (or use his global flare if you really want to win an engagement), as the LG buy the commissar retinue member and move forward under the refractor shield tanking damage and "spotting" (add the sergeant member to make the squad even more durable), as the IQ there is absolutely no excuse; you could rush in with mandate to spot, you could use the auspex scan ability granted by the servo skull (which itself btw passively increases her sight radius to a whopping 65), or you could purchase the interrogators armour and infiltrate any unit to get that unit to do the "spotting". Failing all that you could just buy yourself some stormtroopers, infiltrate them and use them to spot with. I don't see a balance issue here, spotters are performing really well atm.

[lolzarz]

Torpid, please note that when I said match mortar shell range with sight range, I didn't specify whether to make them see further, or to make the cast range shorter. I'd like to see a bit of both, with them being specialized spotters and all.

[Torpid]

But then that would be an undue nerf because I wouldn't be able to do all the stuff I mentioned on the previous page half as well

Not keen.

[Raffa]

A key point being missed is that taking damage in the FoW reveals you. Hence suppression teams can keep firing up to their max range at a targeted squad even though it's out of sight range, because they are taking damage and so are revealed; a hit from a plasma cannon reveals the squad shot at, etc..

Being able to poke with the damage/disruption shell hence compensates really well for the already-mentioned sight range weakness which is pretty intrinsic in IG. Incendiary shell would do the same as damaged squads would be revealed.

Spotters are a low-upkeep unit that doesn't bleed - you should lose one member if you can to pay less upkeep - so fit naturally into almost any IG army comp that needs them. Plus they are easily protected by sentinels in T1, and guardsmen afterwards.

They're in a good spot.