Possessed squad

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Rakdos
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Possessed squad

Postby Rakdos » Thu 10 Nov, 2022 8:29 am

Analyzing the first match between Dark Riku and Bloorain at weekly cup which casted by Shawodiwodi. After 10 minutes of having an advantage in eco Riku decided to go to T3, which was a big mistake. But this is generally the lack of options of the chaos T3 itself. Neither pred nor phobos nor guo are relevant against the composition of troops that the bloodrain had (bright lance and fire dragons) and ofc Riku didn't have red for terminators at this stage of game. Let's imagine that there was some based T3 non single entity infantry squad (e.g. possessed) that ignores av weapons at all. I believe this brought the game to victory as a result for Riku. Let's say those possessed in vakuum has an suficient advantage over the khorne csm, can fight on equal with seer consuls, but loses to terminators with lightning claws and give in to guo on potential utility. The same logic apply to sm. Opposite to this orks, ig, gk and eldars have option for t3 infantry squad which is a big deal.
Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Thu 10 Nov, 2022 5:46 pm

SM can upgrade their ASM's to Vanguard Veteran for a T3 infantry unit. They are stronger at lvl 1 than a default lvl 4 upgraded ASM.
PianoMan
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby PianoMan » Fri 11 Nov, 2022 9:13 am

dont analyze matches if you dont play against these people yourself
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Dark Riku
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Dark Riku » Fri 11 Nov, 2022 10:40 am

PianoMan wrote:dont analyze matches if you dont play against these people yourself
Why not Piano? This is a legit way to learn or to theory craft.
If you don't have anything constructive to add then please refrain from posting.
Bruce Campbell
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Bruce Campbell » Fri 11 Nov, 2022 5:52 pm

If you just want a cool new unit, can you just say that? Saying shit like Chaos lack of t3 options just makes me want to block, unfriend, report , delete & uninstall you.

If you make a piss poor decision in a 1v1, you should lose the game based on it. If your power is being bashed and decapped, and you choose to opt to go T3 on the back of that with no power or red banked, you 100% deserve to lose for that decision. Dont ask for a unit that forgives you for making that mistake.
Last edited by Bruce Campbell on Fri 11 Nov, 2022 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Asmon
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Asmon » Fri 11 Nov, 2022 5:57 pm

Same as Bruce.

Did Riku skipped t2 to go to t3 without red? Then that's a bet he lost.
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Broodwich
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Broodwich » Fri 11 Nov, 2022 8:37 pm

Chaos have great t3 options when you surround them with its excellent t2 units
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Rakdos
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Rakdos » Sat 12 Nov, 2022 8:17 am

Asmon wrote:Same as Bruce.

Did Riku skipped t2 to go to t3 without red? Then that's a bet he lost.

At the start of T1 Riku lost one gen and power nod. Despite that he was keeping most of T1 one bloodrain's natural gen farm uncapped and had contested power point. Right at the start of T2 Riku bashed 3 bloodrain's gens and after bloodcrusher hited the battlefield, he decided to jump onto T3 having significant eco pool without red at the same time.
Rakdos
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Rakdos » Sat 12 Nov, 2022 8:18 am

Bruce Campbell wrote:If you just want a cool new unit, can you just say that? Saying shit like Chaos lack of t3 options just makes me want to block, unfriend, report , delete & uninstall you.

If you make a piss poor decision in a 1v1, you should lose the game based on it. If your power is being bashed and decapped, and you choose to opt to go T3 on the back of that with no power or red banked, you 100% deserve to lose for that decision. Dont ask for a unit that forgives you for making that mistake.

оk tell us, mine friend, what T3 unit would you purchase when bloodrain had: 1 guardian, 1 banshee, 2 shuriken cannon, 1 bright lance and 1 fire dragon?
Rakdos
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Rakdos » Sat 12 Nov, 2022 8:55 am

And I point the essence of this topic: what T3 chaos unit will be helpful against bloodrain's army composition? What if chaos player wish to skip T2 or having small T2 presence, when he have eco advantage and have opportunity to tech for T3, but there is not enough red for terminators?
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Dark Riku
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Dark Riku » Sat 12 Nov, 2022 12:48 pm

Rakdos wrote:оk tell us, mine friend, what T3 unit would you purchase when bloodrain had: 1 guardian, 1 banshee, 2 shuriken cannon, 1 bright lance and 1 fire dragon?
I will give my thoughts but Bruce may also answer ofcource.
I would buy a nurgle pred, a GUO or terminators vs that composition. But it's not that simple. This is assuming the player has all these resources.

Rakdos wrote:And I point the essence of this topic: what T3 chaos unit will be helpful against bloodrain's army composition? What if chaos player wish to skip T2 or having small T2 presence, when he have eco advantage and have opportunity to tech for T3, but there is not enough red for terminators?
Which T3 units would be useful I've already covered above. Well, it's not so much what you wish to do in this game. It's what you need to do :)
What I should have done is not walk my BC into his base and lose it. Bought Blood Letters, get my PC upgraded en then see from there.
Rakdos
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Rakdos » Sat 12 Nov, 2022 1:20 pm

Dark Riku wrote: Well, it's not so much what you wish to do in this game. It's what you need to do :)

Exactly it's not what you wish but have to buy something.
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Rakdos » Sat 12 Nov, 2022 1:36 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14Y3izfvl0c
Another similar situation. now 2vs2. Ligt forced T3 without any T2 unit, then asked himself (12:43 time mark)
Ligt: fuck it's not good place for tank
Ligt: too much av
Ligt: I don't have red for terminators
Ligt: ok I make land raider
Adila: ok
And after land raider hited the battlefield Ligt lost it 2 minutes later.
Bruce Campbell
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Bruce Campbell » Sat 12 Nov, 2022 2:34 pm

Rakdos wrote:
Bruce Campbell wrote:If you just want a cool new unit, can you just say that? Saying shit like Chaos lack of t3 options just makes me want to block, unfriend, report , delete & uninstall you.

If you make a piss poor decision in a 1v1, you should lose the game based on it. If your power is being bashed and decapped, and you choose to opt to go T3 on the back of that with no power or red banked, you 100% deserve to lose for that decision. Dont ask for a unit that forgives you for making that mistake.

оk tell us, mine friend, what T3 unit would you purchase when bloodrain had: 1 guardian, 1 banshee, 2 shuriken cannon, 1 bright lance and 1 fire dragon?


Same as what Riku just said, assuming you have the resources a GUO or terminators. You're talking like that Eldar composition is impenetrable or something. Its all piss weak t1/t2 fluff units. A GUO is going to roll through the whole lot, and its usually in Eldars best interest to just concede in that situation if terminators are dropped.
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Bruce Campbell » Sat 12 Nov, 2022 2:35 pm

Rakdos wrote:And after land raider hited the battlefield Ligt lost it 2 minutes later.


Skill issue
Rakdos
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Rakdos » Sat 12 Nov, 2022 4:06 pm

Bruce Campbell wrote: You're talking like that Eldar composition is impenetrable or something.

Yeap i think bloodrain's army composition is uncomfortable for chaos player, who decided to force T3. Several questions here:
1) What are you prefer in this situation if seer concil was avalable at T3 chaos? GUO or SC. Btw GUO cost much more and you have to wait some time and stays in vulnerable position. Even more after all of that you probably want to have some bank of resurces for unit that counteract eldar's conter measure unit against GUO.
2) If GUO even so hits the battlefield, what bloodrain should do? Make second bright lance or second fire dragon or simply call wrathlord with shoulder mounted brithlance? Keep in mind fraseer's time field. Neverless bloodrain reached T3.
Last edited by Rakdos on Sat 12 Nov, 2022 4:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Rakdos
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Rakdos » Sat 12 Nov, 2022 4:10 pm

Bruce Campbell wrote:
Rakdos wrote:And after land raider hited the battlefield Ligt lost it 2 minutes later.


Skill issue

Generally there i highlighted Ligt's monologue. Sentence about dead land raider is simply logical ending of thesis.
Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Sat 12 Nov, 2022 6:35 pm

Edit your post rather than make a new one right after please -.-
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egewithin
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby egewithin » Sat 12 Nov, 2022 7:15 pm

I will just jump into this and say that he does't have to buy something in T3. Sometimes, a clever T1 purchase made in late game can be a game changer. Personally, I do remember changing the tide with getting ASM in T3 (not even Vanguards) when my enemy wasn't expecting them. Or just getting 2 Lascannon Devs insted of 1 Pred, etc. It really depends on matches of cource.

And besides, Chaos don't need more melee units. Almost half of the units can be good at melee anyway.
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Inekura » Sat 12 Nov, 2022 11:55 pm

Bruce Campbell wrote:
Rakdos wrote:And after land raider hited the battlefield Ligt lost it 2 minutes later.


Skill issue


you mean 25 mins later lol.
Don´t link replays if the example you list doesn´t even exist in it.
Also thats suuuurely not what he thought cus there were 1 havoc and a pm in a 2v2 not more..
thats really not a metric shit ton of av.
Also the other players were in t3 aswell.
Rakdos
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Rakdos » Sun 13 Nov, 2022 7:27 am

Inekura wrote:
you mean 25 mins later lol.
Don´t link replays if the example you list doesn´t even exist in it.
Also thats suuuurely not what he thought cus there were 1 havoc and a pm in a 2v2 not more..
thats really not a metric shit ton of av.
Also the other players were in t3 aswell.

Nope Ligt lost phobos at 16:27 time mark. And I agree with him that there was at least enough av to counter tank, thus we had to waste time for big unit like GUO, phobos or accumulate red for terminators. And yeah while Ligt wasting time trying to accumalate resurces for phobos opp players prepared their T3. It what i pointed here again and again. All you guys right saying that chaos should rely on massive t2, and don't press t3 button very fast, there is no relatively cheap unit for T3 rosters like seer council...
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Broodwich
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Broodwich » Mon 14 Nov, 2022 3:25 am

This conversation has gotten quite dumb

1. Riku already has stated he should have done things differently
2. Your example is terrible. Ligt straight noobed his phobos to death. I'm sure he would tell you the same
3. T3 is not, nor should ever be, an "I win" button
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Rakdos
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Rakdos » Mon 14 Nov, 2022 7:49 am

Broodwich wrote:This conversation has gotten quite dumb

1. Riku already has stated he should have done things differently
2. Your example is terrible. Ligt straight noobed his phobos to death. I'm sure he would tell you the same
3. T3 is not, nor should ever be, an "I win" button

I didn’t indicate anywhere about T3 as free win button, I just suggested to introduce for chaos T3 infantry non-single entity squad for extending options. And death of Ligе's phobos does not matter. At that post I highlighted ligt's thoughts about fast reaching T3: not a good time for tank and simultaneously no red for terminators.
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Torpid
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Torpid » Wed 16 Nov, 2022 2:28 pm

Why is this "problem" unique to chaos and not SM btw?

Also that eldar composition you mentioned above to start this whole thing sounds very weak to a well microed khorne predator, though it's MU dependent because some maps are just crap for tank micro if there's lots of tank traps and line of sight blockers.

Either way, it's a moot point because going to T3 shouldn't always be the right option. It's meant to be that way so we actually see walkers and T2's aren't skipped constantly.
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Rakdos
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Rakdos » Wed 16 Nov, 2022 3:22 pm

Torpid wrote:Why is this "problem" unique to chaos and not SM btw?


I just touched sm in the first post. I'm sure all players are tired of terminators and land raiders. A new unit for SM I think deserves a separate topic.
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Broodwich
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Re: Possessed squad

Postby Broodwich » Wed 16 Nov, 2022 10:13 pm

lmao, now i know this is a troll
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