Patch 2.3.1 (Tentative balance changelog preview)

[BaptismByLoli]

Those combos are pretty expensive to invest in and are not that easy to pull off, hence why they tend to do so well.

I can't think of any risks in using gates, but I can think of how to counter them. Gates are commonly found on the edges of the map or locations where units normally don't pass through, so you'll need to move out of your way a bit in order to find them. Remember that a gate in the making is visible to everyone.

When I manage to detect a gate, instead of trying to destroy the gate immediately, I like to ambush the Eldar player myself when he disembarks his units from the gate. Alternatively, I can ignore the side that has a gate for the time being and help my teammate push forward in another lane. This way I am trying to force the Eldar player to assist his teammate. Then while his army is occupied I'll send my scouts to destroy the gate and cap up what I can. It's all about making the Eldar come to you rather than walking in his trap.

You'll always want to look out and prepare for gate usage. From my experience gates tend to appear often in larger maps or when a player is extremely vulnerable to 1 avenue of attack. When your side has been pretty quiet or a double is occurring while you think there is no way they could have done that without using a gate, you and your teammates should start planning accordingly.

Just calm down and stick with your team, look for alternatives if need be.
If you get angry, you'll make mistakes and immediately think that everything that occurred in that game was BS >_>.

[krimson]

What you are saying is the way to detect gates and destroy them. What is difficult in practice is :

1. Wasting time finding said gate while i miss capping, ninja cap, and then wasting further more time in destroying it.
2. It is infiltrated ..not easy to find. It is not one or two.. it is multiple and there can be many in a game

If infiltration and health is reduced..then yes..it might be balanced but otherwise this thing is just nuts. I am not angry neither pissed off but more like it leave a bad taste in mouth kind of defeat..where you know you played better but lost to bs.. this doesnt happen when you commit mistake and lose fights or just plain outplayed.

I am still waiting to here anyone explain to me the rationale behind the webway gates and why eldar is the only race to get this. In a game of map control and small army size,,,these are broken.

[Dark Riku]

Wraithlords perform to well with their upgrades. Remove melee resistance when they get a ranged upgrade.
Edited post.

[Element]

@ Caeltos
In wake of recent events... I'll just take the liberty of adding
"Limiting Flash Gitz to 3" to ur list of changes

Though given granted tanks could've helped.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4xkp8I ... _A8ObH4IP-

[Torpid]

I think limiting them and kasrkin to 2 would be wise, nevermind 3, their damage is nuts. Gitz probably ought to have higher upkeep too considering their HI and very hard to peel models off of due to their range or their burst fire. Kasrkin are easier to bleed but they always have burst fire and are supported by an army that makes pushing forward very difficult, I think kasrkin upkeep is more or less fine though since IG don't tend to do great with 2+ kasrkin as it means they have no req/pop for the GM/leman synergy that their t3 so often depends on.

[Ace of Swords]

There is no need to limit those units, the spam happens for obvious reasons.

But if you really wanted to limit it then you could increase their pop, so that their harcounters are much more effective against then if you can't get other stuff.

[Torpid]

There is no need to limit those units, the spam happens for obvious reasons.

But if you really wanted to limit it then you could increase their pop, so that their harcounters are much more effective against then if you can't get other stuff.

The problem there though is that you interfere with the balance of 1v1 by trying to fix balance in 3v3. Let's just stick with kasrkin for now because I believe 1 squad of kasrkin is a balanced unit overall for its tier, race, upkeep, initial cost etc.

If you increase the upkeep of kasrkin you make buying 1 kasrkin squad in a 1v1 less viable, but I do not feel buying an occasional kasrkin squad in a 1v1 atm is OP. However, I feel buying multiple kasrkin squads in a 3v3 is OP, yet they cost the same so that means the balance disparity is solely due to the game mode. How does the game mode affect the strength of units?

Well, in 1v1 req is harder to accumulate because you have higher upkeep because at all points of the game you need a bigger army lest you lose all map control and eventually the game due to having no allies who carry you. Not the case in 3v3. Also in 3v3 you end up with having spam as a viable option because allies can cover the weakness of your spam, which of course doesn't happen in 1v1.

Now, because getting more than 2 kasrkin is a very poor thing to do in 1v1, but arguably quite a strong thing in 3v3
(where you have competent teammates who are aware that you're spamming), nerfing the limit to the squad amounts that you can buy is a way of nerfing the effectiveness of kasrkin in 3v3 without nerfing their effectiveness in 1v1 and so assuming the consensus is that they are fine in 1v1, but too good in 3v3, then the consensus ought to suggest that we limit the amount of squad's you can get instead of increasing their upkeep costs.

I suggest increasing the upkeep costs of flash gitz because I believe they are too strong in 1v1 as well as 3v3. I don't think a squad limit would punish them in 1v1 enough and so a upkeep cost rise would be needed there.

[Forestradio]

Noisy's gotten 4 nobz squad before in 3v3 games so I don't see the problem, field the counters and you're fine.

[Ace of Swords]

Flash gitz are 15 pop atm (on the codex atleast), 3 squads are 45, make them 18 pop and with 3 squads you have a total of 54/100,more than half of your army is flash gitzs, what are you going to do with that once a tank rolls out?

[Torpid]

Noisy's gotten 4 nobz squad before in 3v3 games so I don't see the problem, field the counters and you're fine.

Let's use an analogy to point out why that statement is not a good retort:

Let's assume the retail wartrukk was OP. Somebody said we should make it more costly as it's too good given its cost. You respond saying field the counters and you're fine. OR/AND I've seen Mathis get four deff dreads in a 1v1 before so I don't the see the problem.

The first response doesn't account for the fact that counters are not black and white - counters come in varying degress of strength and worthiness based on their cost, timings etc. The point I was making in my previous post is that in 1v1 counters to git/kasrkin spam are quite strong, but due to there being other teammates in a 3v3 (and to a lesser extent 2v2) the counters are relatively much weaker.

The second response is nonsensical and if it was meant to make sense please could you clarify the way in which it was?

Flash gitz are 15 pop atm (on the codex atleast), 3 squads are 45, make them 18 pop and with 3 squads you have a total of 54/100,more than half of your army is flash gitzs, what are you going to do with that once a tank rolls out?

Well very little in 1v1 for sure, but my contention is that in 1v1 a single squad of gitz is too strong for its price/race/tier/timing etc. Yet by increasing the pop of just one you are nerfing their viability as a one-off purchase in T3 which I think is unfair in the case of kasrkin because I think kasrkin squads are balanced fine enough in 1v1 (but not 3v3), but in the case of gitz I think it would be a good thing because you are nerfing the effectiveness of a single git squad which I think over-performs for its price atm even in 1v1 (although I wouldn't want to see a cost increase in their default price/upgrades as that would mean they are timed to come out later which I think is unnecessary, I just think they should have higher upkeep/pop/bleed).

[Element]

Gotta love some of the in depth logic some people in this community have when it comes to understanding the games complexes. They are very insightful and really showcase the whole picture.

I totally agree with torpid here.

A counter exist for everything. But that doesn't mean the counter is as cost/effective as the unit they are countering given the scenario/game mode.

[Ace of Swords]

Well very little in 1v1 for sure, but my contention is that in 1v1 a single squad of gitz is too strong for its price/race/tier/timing etc. Yet by increasing the pop of just one you are nerfing their viability as a one-off purchase in T3 which I think is unfair in the case of kasrkin because I think kasrkin squads are balanced fine enough in 1v1 (but not 3v3), but in the case of gitz I think it would be a good thing because you are nerfing the effectiveness of a single git squad which I think over-performs for its price atm even in 1v1 (although I wouldn't want to see a cost increase in their default price/upgrades as that would mean they are timed to come out later which I think is unnecessary, I just think they should have higher upkeep/pop/bleed).

Why do you think they are too strong in 1v1? is their price:dps ration?Is it against a specific MU? I think they are fine overall, a single squad does the damage it needs to, when they are massed they might be OP, but like you pointed out it's the same for kas and we could say the same about spiders, reapers and other units too, but at that point if you kept a balanced army it shouldn't be hard to deal with, this is talking about 1v1s, in team games, I don't know if it's your preference to do things alone but you shouldn't expect to be able to beat 2 armies or your opponent's army + some support from his mate (may it be AV or an hero or w/e that can obstacle your counters) without having support from your own mates, ofc talking about equal skill levels as always.

[Arbit]

TBH the only time I see T3 elite spamming is when a player basically gets taken out of the game in T2/early T3 but the other team fails to seal the deal i.e. they get outplayed by the remaining two players. When you have no units and no upkeep you can afford to spam the shit of gits and kasrkin.

Frankly, the problem is that gits/kasr serve little purpose in either army except as a means to slingshot you back into the game after losing your shootas/guardsmen, with the exception that gits with the AoE gun give the orks an option to counter terminators with an infantry based ranged unit.

[Torpid]

Yeah, it's related to what arbit said. I think orks have a perfectly fine T2 really overall, it certainly doesn't underperform holistically if even if vs things like transports it can be lacking, it excels at other aspects. Orks have a really fantastic tank in the looted because of its ability/burst damage, their heroes are brilliant at AV in T3 meaning you often end up with tank dominance and then even in scenarios where that won't win you the game you have nobs/tanks to rely on. I don't see why orks needed flash gitz and their mad ranged dps when they already are impossible to fight up in melee due to nobs/sluggas/weirdboy/painboy and they already have such a great tank for t3 ranged dps. It's not like terminators were OP vs orks, orks could deal with them quite easily in T2 with sluggas/weirdboy and storms to tie up everything else.

The purchase of flash gitz in my opinion doesn't seem to hurt the ork economy enough for what it does. They're a really strong unit that changes compositions hugely - I mean with orks you go from worrying about ranged dps in t1 to melee dps in t2 and then in t3 you have no idea what to do since they have awesome melee, awesome range and awesome tanks. Nobs at least have higher sunk costs, bleed more, have more upkeep/pop and cost more to upgrade. I want flash gitz to be more like nobs really. Maybe giving them a nob leader themselves (and nerfing them without the nob leader) or more hp but less dps would be the way to go, I really dislike their low-hp massive burst damage mechanic, I think it's too powerful for a race like orks who can counter-initiate so easily with vomit/sluggas.

I don't think karkin are quite as good of a unit for IG as gitz are for orks as ultimately kasrkin just do the job of GM better with the exception of holding the line with vehicle synergy. They don't offer a new dimension of play like gitz do. Also I find it much harder to get to T3 and field kasrkin than I do to get to T3 and field gitz.

[sebi.costa]

* Inquisitior Crossbow cost reduced from 110/25 to 110/20
Was the range for the weapon already increased or was the idea to give the crossbow more range abandoned in favor of a price reduction??

[Atlas]

* Inquisitior Crossbow cost reduced from 110/25 to 110/20
Was the range for the weapon already increased or was the idea to give the crossbow more range abandoned in favor of a price reduction??

The latter. It's just a price decrease as far as i can tell.

[Cyris]

Any updates on ETA for this patch? It's filled with some really exciting things!

Things I'm really looking forward too:
Whatever happens to Drop Pod!
Nebulous WW scatter buff - I have wanted to like this unit for a long time now, it's getting so close!
Zealous Charge - A reason to buy the AC? Heresy!
Much anticipated Spikey Armor nerf
Slugga burnas getting more love
Without Numbers! Nids becoming more swarmy!!!
Mobile-Base Chimera?!?! Whaaaaaaaat!
Catachan bleed reductions - Nebulous, but between ELITE and Retail I think there is a happy medium that can be reached.
Purgation Squad changes looks VERY exciting
General GK polish

Things I'm not looking forward too:
Warrior size increase? Don't quite understand this one.
IST getting more buffs then Strikes :/
Havok suppression speed - Without this, it will be hands down the worst setup team. I really hope they get some other special advantage to compensate.
Waiting longer for this patch!!!!

[Sub_Zero]

Havok suppression speed - Without this, it will be hands down the worst setup team. I really hope they get some other special advantage to compensate.

Tzeentch havocs are like loota boyz, it is enormously strong for a suppression setup team, Khorne havocs can be quicker and I hope there is no need to explain the benefits of it, and Nurgle havocs are tough bastards even despite the nerf to this worship. And how dare you to call them the worst? It is like they don't have their overpowered T2 upgrades. One that allows them to be stupidly powerful vs any target and the other that gives them that annoying insta snare with huge damage. I consider havocs the best setup team. And if I am not mistaken in the upcoming update they will still remain the fastest setup teams in terms of laying down suppressive fire.

[Vapor]

Havoks could probably stand to do *slightly* more damage if these suppression nerfs go through... I mean their damage output isn't really impressive and they have a long teardown time.

[Ace of Swords]

I don't think a nerf to their courage damage is necessary to begin with, but if it has to happen then they need something else to compensate, they are pretty bad atm.

[Nurland]

I think the suppression will remain pretty instant. But it will not last as long when you back out. Not 100% sure about it.

[Torpid]

I don't think a nerf to their courage damage is necessary to begin with, but if it has to happen then they need something else to compensate, they are pretty bad atm.

Agreed.

[Cyris]

I think the suppression will remain pretty instant. But it will not last as long when you back out. Not 100% sure about it.

I think this is incorrect. My understanding of courage is that while courage damage rates change by source, the regen rate is constant. The courage damage multipliers on Havoks are higher then other suppression teams which accounts for units getting suppressed real quick, but I don't think the state persists any longer because of this.

Any one know better?

In any case, I looked at the numbers a bit more. Havoks with a .15 multiplier at long range (or .2? the patch notes seem inconsistent, with distant as .2 and long as .15, which seems backwards) will still suppress faster then other teams, but not as much faster as they are now (which as said, is .3). So, +50% faster then other teams, as opposed to +200% faster.

But back to my main point: Who else is real excited to play this patch already!?!?

[Arbit]

I think the suppression will remain pretty instant. But it will not last as long when you back out. Not 100% sure about it.

I think the only variable that determines how long suppression will last is how fast the squad regenerates courage back from 0 to 100%. Basically, you start with 100, get suppressed once you hit zero, and remain suppressed until you get back up to 100. I don't think how much courage damage a weapon inflicts matters when determining how long a squad stays suppressed - courage goes to zero and can't go any lower than that.

Inflicting higher courage will still help in the instance that a squad it moving in and out of a suppression team's max firing arc - a suppressed squad that has moved out of the arc, regenned partially, moves back in, takes some more courage damage, then moves back out again will get to an unsuppressed state more quickly if during the second instance of suppression their courage does not drop them all the way back to zero again (a havoc might reduce them to zero courage whereas an SM HB might only take them to 40 or something).

Let me stress that this a theory based on observation, and it's very possible I am just making shit up

[sebi.costa]

* Inquisitior Crossbow cost reduced from 110/25 to 110/20

I rly dont think 5 power will make much difference. Its a welcome change dont get me wrong! This weapon is very situational, i would only use it if my opponent has 2 sluggas/termagans.
The inferno pistol is just far better for a range upgrade, unless u rly need the snare ability of the crossbow.
I rly dont see this weapon being used for any other purpose than its snare.

* Drop Pod moved from T2 to T1
* Drop Pod red cost reduced from 200 to 100
The drop pod is way better when compared to "infiltrated storm troopers", i do consider storm troopers to a bit better than tactical marines, but T1 reinforcements and a squad at reduced price. Pls show the infiltrated stormtroopers some love as well!

[Torpid]

I think it would be nice if the infiltrated stormtroopers costed a little bit less req. Obviously the main purpose of that global is to spawn storms somewhere behind enemy lines or at a flank, give them the melta upgraded and snipe some vehicles/turrets/buildings. That's super niche though because we all know how fragile melta storms are. Hell, I don't even think it would be worth using that global to take out a razorback only then to be left with a squad just as shitty as melta storms. Would like it if the global made them only cost 200 req along with the red cost.

You're right about the crossbow too. The snare is the only reason someone would get it. The IQ has far more utility as a melee hero and really the brazier is a better counter to melee anyway, while simultaneously making her much more effective at soloing ranged squads. Then the crossbow lowers her range which is just so dumb. She's a supportive spellcaster the last thing you want is her being in front of your guardsmen/sentinels taking all the fire. It's a shit upgrade. You already have HOTW in T1 to deal with enemy heroes, melee spam gets wrecked by catachans/sentinels, then come T2 you get the no-brainer of a purchase that is the excruitors so I really don't see why anyone would ever want the crossbow except for the ever so predictable manticore/crossbow combo which is about as good as 2x TCSM and 2x PMs with the PC...

[Atlas]

+1 to both comments before me. I don't know what you mean about lowering her range though since the Codex tells me her plasma pistol only has 22 range and the crossbow/inferno goes out to 30 range. Total agreement though in that I get the crossbow pretty much only for the snare and the obvious synergy with Manticores. It's like the Techmarine's starting bolter but with less range just by itself.

As for the infiltrated stormtroopers, you could also use it to get a deep strike grenade in, but that's even more super niche than the melta storms because if you miss that grenade then I hope you wanted those AKSTs anyway. The only time I haven't used it just to get the melta storm ambush was by total accident when I wanted a banewolf instead. I have no idea what I would do, but I do feel it's in need of a little polish.

[Dark Riku]

Some of you want havocs to get something extra while they still pretty much insta suppress...? In the meantime the SM devastator still has nothing going for it while all other suppression teams have something going for them that non of the other have. And before you even think about it, no, a paid upgrade in T1 that locks you out of your AV option is not a straight up, or even out of the gate, positive trait.

I rly dont think 5 power will make much difference.

5 power is a very big deal, especially in T1.

[Forestradio]

Basically, you start with 100, get suppressed once you hit zero, and remain suppressed until you get back up to 100.

Not every squad has 100 courage though.

[sebi.costa]

I rly dont think 5 power will make much difference.

5 power is a very big deal, especially in T1.

It doesnt take that long to get 5 power. If im not mistaken a un-noded power node gives u 5 power. It is a welcome change like i said, but its not "a very big deal", its more of a helping hand when ur going for this wargear.

Even with the update, the holy brazier is cheaper by 10 rec. I dont consider the weapon to be "bad", since its snare is useful, I think a range upgrade would be better. Since she always stands in front of guardsmen when in range stance. Unless u have Catachans, she will get hit by all the range dmg coming in. The problem is that without one of her shields she is easy to kill/force off.

Because of this, i played some games today to test the weapon out, and it works better if I put her mostly in melee stance, that way i get advantage of her melee specials and i use the crossbow only for the snare or as dmg when she chases fleeing units.