Patch 2.3.1 (Tentative balance changelog preview)

[Cyris]

Loooove the drop pod change idea. I think it will have so much more viability like this! T1 I often hit that SM place where I have a node and maybe a gen, 2 scouts and a tac. My next build depeneds a lot on what I see and what my enemy has, and it's generally either dev, asm or rush tech. This seems like it could sneak in as a 4th option, the late double tac. red cost might make this not happen though, most games my Red is poop as SM till later in the game. My gut is the Red should come down even further, but that the req can stay higher. Very excited to try this!

Havoks no longer insta-supress? I don't have any strong feelings on Chaos needing this nerf or not, but it's always felt lame howWavoks can beat any other suppression in a duel... so sure!

Cheaper shees sounds OP. I appreciate the goal of mixing up eldar builds, but there feels like there are a lot of T1 choices between 2nd GU, Ranger and Shuri plus the T1 upgrade timings. Less up-front cost and less reinforce (and less upkeep?) in exchange for a dps nerf sounds like a functional net buff on a unit that I'd rather see nerfed then buffed. Reapers sound great, surprised to learn they were 41!

Git-sauce tastes like an overnerf? I'm very happy it's less T1 invulnerability button though. Random ideas: Have it heal % (in T2 maybe?) so it scales better. Have the duration increase in T2. Lower Energy cost.

Nid stuff sounds.. Interesting? more 4 gaunt early builds maybe? Without number change pretty interesting. Nids swarmyness is often traded out for super units late game cause of the excessive amount of AOE that the game ramps into. This feels like another attempt at keeping nids swarmy for more of the game, so I'm game!

The manticore design intentions read well, but the changes don't apear to be in line. 30 less power in exchange for relatively minor nerfs is going to have me fast-tech more, not less. This change may be good for the game, but it will not hit the stated design goal.

Purgation now deal more courage damage? As in, they used to be 1.0 at all ranged before, and now increase? That plus setup time sounds GREAT. Rest of GK sound fine, I'm a little worried about the Interceptors cast time addition. Will hurt their T1 a bunch. Could we have the cast time only on Furious maybe? It's always felt like it needed it, while the T1 port is pretty weak. Maybe +10 range will change this?


A very good patchlog. A bunch of little changes that have a lot of potential to open up new playstyles.

[Dark Riku]

From the Astra Militarium Codex (Imperial Guard, 2014):

AUGUR ARRAY
These ‘spyboxes’ feed intelligence back to command elements behind the lines.
Strategic servitors compile and redistribute this data in order to refine the coordinates issued to support elements in the field.

If you attempt to bring a unit on from reserve using Deep Strike, and the location chosen for its deployment is within 6" of a vehicle with an augur array, that unit does not scatter. The augur array must have been on the battlefield at the start of the turn in order for it to be used.

Looks like it's used as a beacon for reserves, not for communications or for faster coordinate transmissions.
Although the fluff text is more vague (GW™).

[Venjitron]

my only concern here is the drop pod change seems alittle too cheap req wise...that is all.

[saltychipmunk]

nah that is fine , you are paying red and req for a second tac , since you probably already have the first one , plus you would need to play a 2 tac strategy with 1 tac for 100 red which could delay the second tac longer than it would just buying a second one.

and it takes away from getting terminators , all in all a fair trade off for a 150 req cheaper tac

[Forestradio]

The interceptor changes are a massive buff. Breaking suppression on teleport is so crucial against setup terms, especially versus eldar and chaos.

The Doom of Malantai still needs a nerf: either increase the cool down of its three damaging abilities or make it so the Doom can only have one ability active at a time. I speak mostly from sm/gk/chaos perspective here, but it's sad watching this thing eat every infantry armored unit in seconds.

The rhino change is massive, if the durability given to it is too much, I'd suggest removing SHI armor and reducing the build time instead.

Also, the purgation flamer setup time might cause some issues with all of them having setup weapons, as well as with their ability, which is channeled through only a single model atm.

[saltychipmunk]

the effects of the interceptor changes remain to be seen, and i can see both positive and negative sides to this change adding a 1.5 second charge up just destroyed(well perhaps not destroyed , but nerfed) a metic butt-ton of their late game potency ( in the form of the mid fight jumps) and no matter what you say , that 1.5 second time greatly hinders the jump as a means to disengage , which units like asm and raptors use alot in the late game. (basically takes away 300 hp right off the top if you were planning to use it to escape). I am willing to bet that more interceptors will be dying to retreat rapes with that change in the form of extra models , if not whole squads in some cases.

the suppression was only an issue because their jump was in the range of the set up teams , so one would think just increasing the jump range would have solved that problem , without the need to add complicated setup times and the like.

But i will hold a wait and see aditude on this change before writing off the interceptors , they really are my favorite gk unit currently... even if it is a guilty pleasure

[viggih]

* Manticore now has a new upgrade - Improved Communications Equipment
* Improved Communications Equipment - Reduces the cooldown of the Storm Eagle ability by 20 seconds for more rapid barrages.


Might I suggest that this upgrade be named Augur Array for the sake of brevity and lore-friendliness.

Yes, if it's more appropiate to the unit itself. But I couldn't find anything regarding teh Augar Array tied to the Manticore when I was googlin' - as for the Improved Communications Equipment;

The Manticore can be also be equipped with the following enhancements: camouflage netting, extra armour, a Hunter-Killer Missile Launcher, a mine sweeper, improved communications equipment, a Pintle-mounted Heavy Stubber or Storm Bolter, a dozer blade, rough terrain modifications, a searchlight, track guards, and smoke launchers.

But yeah, I'll replace the Improved Communications with Augar Array for now.

Well, I didn't google it, I just went straight to the source (the 6th ed. IG Codex) and while technically it's supposed to help units deep-strike better on the TT that doesn't really come into gameplay( because deep-strike mishaps don't happen in DoW2). I just think it fits a lot better.

[viggih]

From the Astra Militarium Codex (Imperial Guard, 2014):

AUGUR ARRAY
These ‘spyboxes’ feed intelligence back to command elements behind the lines.
Strategic servitors compile and redistribute this data in order to refine the coordinates issued to support elements in the field.

If you attempt to bring a unit on from reserve using Deep Strike, and the location chosen for its deployment is within 6" of a vehicle with an augur array, that unit does not scatter. The augur array must have been on the battlefield at the start of the turn in order for it to be used.

Looks like it's used as a beacon for reserves, not for communications or for faster coordinate transmissions.
Although the fluff text is more vague (GW™).

Since deep-strike mishaps aren't a thing, this does fit quite well with the intended upgrade.

(Sorry if I'm repeating myself here)

[Lt. Ekul]

Please for the love of all that is good and holy in this world, don't go through with the changes to snipers/Rangers, it's going to make them (especially Rangers) close to pointless.

[Nurland]

IG has execution, LttE, LG melta buff and Sniper buff. Not to mention the shield for HWT which grants immunity to KB and 50% ranged damage reduction.

LG melta buff doesnt apply to autocannons, they have no cooldown. LC could get flak jacket and lose execution but that's going somewhere else. My point stays the same, only CL and LC can buff damage, but CL does it a tiny bit easier/better

not to mention that IG in general has a lot more damage-dealers in their roster than chaos does.

Everything in the chaos roster is designed to ridiculous amounts of damage :/

Shield + lack of ranged damage in the chaos composition/loads of ranged damage in the IG composition explains it.

Sight... i compared dps on both setup teams just to state the dps difference between them, is not about HWT is shit cause havocs hit harder or havoc are OP cause they hit harder than HWT. But i gotta say.. chaos has no ranged damage? dafuq?

Anyway.... It's my experience that Khrone havocs heavily overperform regardless of stat difference between the 2 squads. If it was the IG HWT doing 45 dps i would be asking for a revision on the HWT as well.

I think 40 dps is more than enough for an autocannon... 45 is simply too much

Chaos has ranged damage but IG has way more.

So you are honestly saying that using execute is harder than using a 200 red T2 global that only buffs anything if you can get to melee and the units are inside specific radius or building (and possibly rebuilding after every lost engagement) a shrine and staying near it?

[saltychipmunk]

i have to admit those ig auto cannons absolutely rape standing infantry.

[Arbit]

I'm always surprised how quickly HWT/havoc autocannons deplete my TM's health, even in cover. I guess it ignores cover because it's an AoE weapon?

IMO the only thing keeping the setup team autocannons in check is how eminently killable they are.

[David-CZ]

Which unfortunately isn't the case with IG HWT when equiped with the shield.

[Batpimp]

been playing the ravener a lot and I find the T1 Frenzy? global underwhelming.

Was wondering what your opinion of what it should do and what it actually does.

Aside from the fact that the ravener or tyranids are not used much I don't really find this thing useful

Its melee centric so:

Horms, raveners, warriors, genestealers, t3 lictor.

Only Genestealers have any real chance of surviving, assuming they win the engagement, but even then its not guaranteed.

Other t1 globals don't have the same large drawback, the life drain, yet do similar things Win engagements.
TON PC Global
For the emperor asm

Wouldn't it make more sense to just cause extra dmg for a duration and maybe after the duration a decreased amount of damage? say 50% up during the activation..and 50% reduced dmg for 15 seconds or afterwords?

Right now as it is it feels risky and not really worth it. Of course increasing the cool down and maybe looking at other factors would be required too

[saltychipmunk]

clearly you have never used it on a zoanthrope

[Vapor]

Wut? The global is the best thing about the ravener aside from the tunnels. You can get ridiculous retreat wipes if you pop it on hormagaunts.

The thing is, a 100% damage buff has to have a big drawback associated with it. With the Commissar you can't retreat, with Catalyst you take buttloads of damage.

[Batpimp]

nope never used on zoanthrope..and never seen it used either. How does that work exactly?
2 or 3 shots and the zoan has to retreat? is this during warpblast or just regular shooting? Can it die from the health loss alone or does it just go to 1 health?

I agree it should have a drawback. what it is im not sure. which is why I invited discussion. In fact I never see the global used. Just like dakka *was* never used on the mek until it became good.

so the use is for retreat wipes? I thought it was a dmg buff only?

"Spur a Tyranid unit into a maniacal frenzy, doubling its damage but dealing .25% of the unit's maximum health in damage every .5 seconds for 10 seconds."
http://dawnofwar.info/index.php?page=el ... ener_alpha

[Dark Riku]

Hint: zoa has a shield

The descriptions also seems wrong, it should be 2.5% dmg every 0.5 secs instead of 0.25% dmg.

[Vapor]

I'm pretty sure that's a typo in the codex, it should be 2.5% damage taken every 0.5 seconds, no? I think it comes out to 50% damage taken after 10 seconds.

[Batpimp]

so half the units life for *potentially* being useful

on a zoan, You use it just for its regular attacks?

So the idea behind it is to use it for:

retreat killing?
winning an engagement?

or?

it seems to me the percentage of life lost on the unit comparable to the *potential* dmg output doesn't correlate to it being used that often. Even at 50 red it still doesn't see much use. For example in all the times ive seen someone like floid use the ravener I never seen him pop this ability.

It would be more useful if it was more like 25% dmg output and less of a life drain, whatever that % is?

I brought this kind of thing up to Caeltos for Raveners. The cost doesn't match the value When I said they were basically useless as a investment. and lo and behold they get a buff announced. I think this ability deserves more scrutiny.

[Crewfinity]

Maybe you're just not thinking about the possibilities. The utility of that global is HUGE. Another thing is that it can be hard to spot, unlike something like UYC, so maybe you just aren't noticing when people use it. Anytime you're close to winning an engagement, you can pop it on your hormagaunts for insane retreat killing potential. Anytime you get them into a retreat path, as well. Zoans put out huge damage already, with that buff it's insane, esspecially since they aren't taking damage because of a shield. It's not usually something you want to use at the beginning of an engagement on your melee units, but rather towards the end, once the damage coming out of the enemy has decreased. It's a lot less riskyto use it then, and getting double your damage is pretty nuts. It can be used on venom brood for getting vehicle kills, or any other squad when you need to buff their DPS. it's an awesome global, especially since you can use it in every engagement since the red cost is so low. I think it's just as useful as more dakka on the mek, you just need to be a bit more careful when you use it. Honestly just experiment with it, it's such a useful global that I have a hard time believing you've been using it that much.

[Torpid]

Catalyst on a zoanthrope + another zoanthrope both shoot at one set-up team from the FOW, bam, instantly kills the set-up team. The potential on genes for retreat killing is huge too. It's also very good for sniping vehicles with the venom brood. Or for killing squads if they get knocked over by warriors with your horms. Pretty good global, but not obviously better than brood nests/stalk, much like the ork hero globals.

Lots of people used more dakka before the buff it's just it wasn't as obvious since the buff looks just like a waaaggghh buff and nothing special happened except more damage.

You never see anybody use catalyst because nobody plays the RA in the first place, but when they do, you often see catalyst...

[Batpimp]

when I use it on horms at the start of a fight. it doesn't pay off because im wanting to use it to have me win that fight. Like UYC or TON but it doesn't.

if I use it at the end of the fight the horms are almost dead and its a HUGE risk to use it then for possibly getting a wipe. So I have relegated it to using only on genes because they can live thru it. I haven't used in on zoan hopefully it works like your saying.

i haven't tried using it on venoms usually i don't make venoms since i have rav..zoan and or gene/TG as AV.

[Venjitron]

well my concern with the cheapness of drop pod kinda took into account all aspects of the usages for it....you can use it to reinforce and then once dropped it lingers as a reinforce point this makes apoth basically have a beacon for no power and a mere 300 100 red... it can be used ontop of enemy forces as a means to break lines and set ups....its not just about the power armoured 1050 hp death squad it spawns.

[Arbit]

And it's going to keep the free reinforcements as well, apparently.

It may not be quite as good as it sounds because it isn't easy getting 100 red in T1 without fielding a large army in the first place, in which case you probably won't want yet another T1 squad. I'll be interested in seeing how it plays out, but the cost really does seem low.

[Cyris]

It may not be quite as good as it sounds because it isn't easy getting 100 red in T1 without fielding a large army in the first place, in which case you probably won't want yet another T1 squad.

I share this concern. Especially as SM who don't have innate red gen and ideally don't bleed much.

I really like the T1 intention on this global. I'd gladly see aspects of it nerfed (the instant reinforce, the damage on arrival) to get it be balanced and usable in T1!

Proposal:
50 Red, 400 Req. Don't increase the damage. Loses instant reinforce but keeps reinforce aura.

I feel like I could scrounge up 50 red by T1.5, and use this to swing a fight.

[Cheekie Monkie]

* Drop Pod damage increased from 75 to 150 heavy_melee damage

I'd use it just for the hilarity of killing a vehicle with a drop pod.

[Ace of Swords]

That's terrible, just make it so it drops the squad with a sarge in t2.

[saltychipmunk]

but there are situations where you dont want the tac sarge , such as when you only need them to be av with a missile launcher. tac sarges can really hit your upkeep.

[Ace of Swords]

First off, tact sarge are great.

Second, just upgrade your first tact?