:(

[PhatE]

This is just becoming a real annoyance but what the hell is up with the Force Commander.

Anything in regards to melee builds or additions of walkers vs him is or has been becoming pretty redundant and these units are becoming more and more irrelevant since the powerfist change. I get that the energy increase to Flesh Over Steel or the Teleporter that don't let him do it from level 1 and level 2 or whatever but this is getting a little ridiculous in too many ways. There's little room to try new things when 2 of his weapons nullify a large part of Tier 2 and Tier 3.

Could there at least be a consideration (if there hasn't been one already) that this be reverted before the next tournament?

[Toilailee]

Just nuke flesh over steel from the game and be done with it.
The only reason it wasn't completely game breaking before was that it didn't track and bugged a lot, now it's just ridiculous. The fist has always pretty much negated walker play vs fc and now with fist + teleport combo he can get pretty much guaranteed a kill on any vehicle whenever he so damn pleases.

gg no re bye

edit: PRETTY MUCH

[ChrisNihilus]

Or just nerf it.
Disable for 8 seconds is pretty strong, but if you allow the vehicle to fire, or move at 50% speed or reduce the time it's disabled, it will be ok.

[Ace of Swords]

It's 5 seconds now

[BaptismByLoli]

I second this.

Come late game and the FC will be an Insta-Vehicle Snaring Rape Train of doom and despair

In the name of the Emperor of course...

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Cyris]

Can we just make it a Las-like snare?

[Caeltos]

It's 5 seconds now

Pretty sure it was never actually reduced. It might have been completely overlooked. It is intended to be 5 seconds however.

[Raffa]

Yeah exactly.

I've demonstrated the FoS + Nuke combo in one of Maestro's casts before, and even today when we were playing PhatE I was ahead in a 2v2 before Gidd's FC teleported onto my baneblade and froze it while WG blew it to high heaven.

I'm not gonna say I told you so Cael, but...well me and Toil kinda did

[Ace of Swords]

He could've done the same thing with warp spiders?

[Raffa]

Fairly sure he couldn't afford them, and the FC dps really added up.

[Arbit]

There's also this issue -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEYkkN5 ... _OPI3G6Tlw

Skip to 11:30. To sum up, FC starts the FoS animation on a bloodcrusher, gets knocked back by the CL maul, then gets up and completes his FoS from ~50 feet away.

IMO it's the combo of teleport, hard stun, and AV damage all on one unit that's kinda ridiculous. At least with warpspiders you have to combo something with them, even if it's "lol eldritch insta kill on your superunit".

Actually that's kinda BS too.

[Osinski]

I can't click the link but I'm relatively sure that's my match vs raffa. Honestly, I love Fc and I think it could just be removed completely. It's not hard to level him so the energy cost is not all that damning. It's a great, high dps weapon that does heavy melee. I think that should be sufficient for him.

[Dark Riku]

Anything in regards to melee builds or additions of walkers vs him is or has been becoming pretty redundant and these units are becoming more and more irrelevant since the powerfist change.

Just want to mention that melee walkers have melee resistance now. Meaning that the PF damage is 40% less versus them than before...
If you can't keep your vehicles alive in certain MU's, then just don't get them? Like you wouldn't get a setupteam vs a sorc, etc ^^

There's also this issue - To sum up, FC starts the FoS animation on a bloodcrusher, gets knocked back by the CL maul, then gets up and completes his FoS from ~50 feet away.

That's just an issue with every attack/animation in DoW2.
Makes for hilarious/sad unit/commander kills while retreating with low health with no units around or even in base ^^

[Nyriss]

Replace teleporter with a jump pack if you ask me. This adds time to react to the FC going in for FoS.

[Swift]

Flesh over Steel has always boggled me to begin with, how someone could justify making something so powerful.

[Torpid]

It's not really blatantly overpowered... Unless you're walking a walker straight up to the FC and expecting it to do something. If it's sitting back waiting to CI, you've made him spend 90 power on his FC and then whatever else he does for the supplementary AV since the FC alone can't do anything vs a melee walker. If it's a ranged walker then having him side alongside you army is even more beneficial. How about stunning the FC before he can use FoS? How about having a suppression team behind your ranged walker so that he gets killed very fast when he teleports in? How about mobbing him with melee?

I don't think it's got the best AV potential. What makes the fist so good though is that it is amazing vs infantry as well as being good vs vehicles. I think it might be an idea to give it a faster attack speed so it doesn't bleed quite so many models and in general isn't as strong against ranged infantry, while still being as good vs walkers/melee and not quite as good against transports/tanks.

[Bahamut]

think somebody else mentioned.. i really don't see the difference between a FC with artificer/teleport pack/power fist (115 power!!) and a warp spider squad. Actually, warp spiders are generally more efficient in my experience

[Barrogh]

Flesh over Steel has always boggled me to begin with, how someone could justify making something so powerful.

I won't comment on whether it's OP or not, but I agree that it's powerful. What bugs me though is that this ability was tied to the biggest and baddest weapon of FC.
Well, I understand that I'm talking out of context right now, but eh...

[HandSome SoddiNg]

That replay Osinski did a fantastic job of controlling the FC,don't certain heroes have wargears to do that?.. Now FC immediate teleportation & stun ,straight-up punish your mistakes if u leave your Vehicles isolated from your army . FC can't do that shit at lower levels till 5 or higher.

[Forestradio]

FC can't do that shit at lower levels till 5 or higher.

Level three if no Artificer. Level one if he has Artificer.

The biggest problem I have with the new FoS is that it feels like it's pushed the FC up even more above the apo in terms of internal hero balance.

[Swift]

Ok perhaps I went a bit far. Can't we just get rid of the tracking? Seems quite ridiculous. And true he loses to a melee walker but he will easily FoS since they are so slow, and no one expects him to win that is why he has his little tac and dev friendlies to finish it off. If removing tracking is too much, then perhapsjust increase the range so it can hit a few metres away?

[viggih]

Replace teleporter with a jump pack if you ask me. This adds time to react to the FC going in for FoS.

This does sound like a nice change since you can see the FC come flying in and needs to complete the landing animation which should give a skilled player plenty of time to react.

Or you could just get rid of FoS. either way works

[Caeltos]

The goal is to maintain reliablity versus effiency.

The reduction in it's duration did not make it in, it was probably overlooked by our implementors, there was alot of things to keep track of, and it just got left out.

The old FoS was an unreliable ability with super high effiency if the bloody thing would ever work, which for the most part it wouldn't due to moving vehicles in general. It really looks stupid, and it's an questionable mechanic to work like that in the first place.

With the lower duration, you'll miss out on ~2 hits, but again - with some pathing issues, you might find yourself lucky just to get 1 swing in.

The Powerfist has a 1.1 wind-up and 0.9 wind-down. Meaning that's 2 seconds between each hit. So this results in;
previous iteration;
3-4 hits (Usually) - Not factoring in some pathing mechanics that results in loss of time.
Damage (solo from FC) - 255 - 340

The Goal;
2-3 hits (Approximately) - Not factoring in some pathing mechanics that results in loss of time.
Damage (solo from FC) - 170 - 255

Not considering the melee resistance.

[Cyris]

I'll put down my vote that tracking is 100% better then how it used to be. I believe all unit targeted skills should work if you use them while in range. I would much rather find a way to balance it once it's unit targeted then ever go back to tracking. Remember when ASM meltas wouldn't track? Augh. The worst. This is the right direction.

Fix the duration, and we'll see. Keep other changes in the back pocket, like:
-I could see it being like Haywire, can still move at reduced rate after getting hit
-If we want tracking gone, change it to a ground targeted AOE like Orbs. Would keep some skill / positioning / counterplay.

[Arbit]

TBH I never saw anything wrong with the reliability of FoS's previous behavior. It was reliable in the sense that it operated consistently given the same circumstances - if you tried it on a moving vehicle, he would consistently follow it around pumping his fist in the air, and if you set it up by distracting your opponent, snaring the vehicle first, or just waiting for that moment when they fail to keep their vehicle moving 24/7, then it would stun (pretty?) consistently. It was the cost of having such a powerful ability on an already excellent weapon, not unlike the KNob's assassinate before it was also "fixed".

The new version is a lot easier to use but now the skill has been removed from it. You have like 1 to 2 seconds to react and now it's not even guaranteed that you can stop him from snaring the vehicle even if you knock him back. This is really annoying with regards to tanks and especially transports, some of which can be killed with ~3 rear armor hits by a reasonably leveled up FC (yes you can still rotate the vehicle but the rotation behavior while stunned is kinda bizzare and difficult to control).

@Riku
Regular melee attacks will not restart from outside melee range if they get knocked back mid-swing. They have to walk back up to their target, unlike FoS.

[ShowMeMagik]

Heres a crazy ideas which may not be possible. Can we make it that it tracks if the target vehicle remains within a certain range or maybe make it not tracking but bigger range.

The problem with FoS originally was that it never hit because if you move you move out of range and it takes so long and so never hits.

If we change it to mean that if you react you can avoid it but still leave a chance of hitting it becomes worthwhile.

Either that or tone down the snare a little?

[Dark Riku]

Not this again Arbit... Not even gonna bother.

[Myrdal]

Heres a crazy ideas which may not be possible. Can we make it that it tracks if the target vehicle remains within a certain range or maybe make it not tracking but bigger range.

Not crazy at all, in fact it's probably the best fix for it without doing a redesign. Increasing the range from 5 to 10 made it so much more reliable, ofc the previous behavior is still possible but with a bit of micro he should get the hit off consistenly. No need for an unstoppable tracking FoS.

[Caeltos]

Not this again Arbit... Not even gonna bother.

Then don't post.

Can we make it that it tracks if the target vehicle remains within a certain range or maybe make it not tracking but bigger range.

Possibly, I know that Relic used to have abilities have a range of 36 , but it would have an exceeded range of say, 40 to ensure that some abilities wouldn't bug out when the animation started. Melta Bombs / Haywire had this function. Not sure if it's still the same, or if it's an infinite tracking range now tho.

[Broodwich]

I'll put down my vote that tracking is 100% better then how it used to be. I believe all unit targeted skills should work if you use them while in range. I would much rather find a way to balance it once it's unit targeted then ever go back to tracking.

+1
Make it work, then balance it.

tbh idk why he has the teleporter anyway.