Making artillery units reliable and safe

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Sub_Zero
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Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Sub_Zero » Fri 11 Jul, 2014 1:47 pm

You successfully managed to make the Hive Tyrant's bioplasma work properly. It hits all the time now, it is so perfect.

My concern is about setup teams like Plasma cannon devastators and Noise marines (with the T2 upgrade).

At the moment they are unreliable and unsafe. Let me explain.

Their reliability disappears when they start to hit the terrain when you need them to shoot at enemies. It does become a balance issue when my artillery piece fails to shoot properly. They must hit their targets always unless these targets get moved away due to the player's quick reaction and micro-management. That is how this should work. That is how it works for other artillery units - they hit you unless you move your units. And here is my question the answer on which will decide whether it is possible or not to make them more reliable. Can the same firing pattern (the HT's one) (a projectile flies over terrain obstacles) be applied to these setup teams?

Their unsafety is their automatic mode of firing. Each shot is incredibly valuable for an immobile setup team because it reveals its position and exposes it to certain dangers other artillery units can avoid. So each shot needs to reach the unit you need to damage. You can argue that I should choose targets manually, but if the targets I need to fire at are not not in the range and my setup team automatically chooses any other target? I can press S (stop) but it will burn the shot and I will need to wait some time to be able to fire again. This is stupid, isn't it? So my point is that you have a button that disables the automatic fire mode. If you leave your setup team (when I say setup team I mean noise marines or plasma devs) to guard a VP you can keep this automatic fire mode. But if this setup team needs to participate in a big fight then each shot is valuable and needs to be directed manually to the target you want to hit. And again here is my question. Is it possible to implement such a button?

I posted it here because I think that it is a balance issue. Those are unintentional weaknesses these setup teams have and they occur only due to the developers' ( I am talking about the official ones, what about you, guys?) inability to fix them? I can't even imagine a guy who thinks otherwise.
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HandSome SoddiNg
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby HandSome SoddiNg » Fri 11 Jul, 2014 2:10 pm

i can't imagine inventing an automatic button allowing artillery units to track the targets in their firing arc & its a guarantee hit every single time? They still must have clear LOS ,firing over obstacles seems bit too crazy. If there's 2 Pdevs/NM guarding a VP point with their precise accuracy,its quite difficult. Only WW/Manticores/Jump units can disable Artillery units,but those Artillery units are reliable enough to destroy Bunkers/Area denial
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Swift » Fri 11 Jul, 2014 5:00 pm

Not to mention the damage Plasma Cannons/Blastmasters do. They really destroy things. Whilst they may seem inaccurate, hitting all of the time would make them so much more powerful. The idea is they are a projectile, that, with enough skill, can be dodged, if not you take horrendous damage from them. Also bear in mind that the Manticore is so frail and expensive (90 power), so they cannot be compared 1 to 1 easily.
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby FiSH » Fri 11 Jul, 2014 5:53 pm

Making a passive shooting artillery squad hit reliably is over the top.

I also disagree that artillery units should have bioplasma-type trajectory. The real problem is some terrains deceptively block those artillery shots (I'm looking at you, center platform thing on Calderis Refinery haha). Artillery that goes over terrain (such as WW, Manticore) has a trait that the damage is either weak/can be avoided/shots come from active abilities. Thus, it makes sense to make artillery that does not go over terrain do more damage.

Finally, you can attack ground even as the Pdev is winding up its weapon. You don't have to hit "s," hit "g" instead.
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Superhooper01 » Fri 11 Jul, 2014 6:23 pm

While i am glad to see the hive tyrant war-gear fixed making noise marines and p-devs more accurate is not needed and would make them even more annoying and have more squad wipes and shit which isn't needed. while i can agree it is annoying to have them hit terrain they generally are very good at stopping vp caps and dealing with blobs. simply put dont want to see a chance as p-devs do a ton of damage as do nm.
Last edited by Superhooper01 on Sat 12 Jul, 2014 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Dark Riku » Fri 11 Jul, 2014 6:26 pm

FiSH wrote:Making a passive shooting artillery squad hit reliably is over the top.
D-cannon....

Superhooper01 wrote:making noise marines and p-devs more accurate is not needed and would make them even more annoying and have more squad wipes and shit which isn't needed.
It's not about making them more accurate, it's about making them not hit stairs and other elevated terrain all the damn time.
They'll still suffer from misfires and everything else.
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Ace of Swords » Fri 11 Jul, 2014 6:32 pm

All I would like to see is an "Hold fire" ability for arty and nothing more.
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby FiSH » Fri 11 Jul, 2014 6:35 pm

Dark Riku wrote:D-cannon....

But D-cannon is an Eldar unit, and thus it's ok to be OP :P

In all seriousness, it's a T3 unit, so meh, I'm ok with it being better than other artillery units. Especially so considering the recent changes to its dmg modifiers at medium and long ranges.
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Arbit » Fri 11 Jul, 2014 6:53 pm

I believe the reliable, passive shooting artillery unit you're looking for is the fireprism. Hitscan, reliable, plus knockback. Of course it's T3 as well. And eldar. :D

On topic, do want a hold fire command. Perhaps a small arc so pdev/blastmaster shots don't hit variations in terrain so small you can barely see them, but IMO they shouldn't be able to arc it up over the top of a staircase or hilltop.
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Vapor » Fri 11 Jul, 2014 7:21 pm

Hold fire would be nice if only for my teammates' sake

I also agree with the small arc thing, so that the projectile can get over obstacles the height of a fucking curb (medean cliff mines comes to mind)
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Sub_Zero » Fri 11 Jul, 2014 7:46 pm

I wrote a detailed post but all my efforts were pointless since my Internet-connection leaves much to be desired... :|

To cut it short:

These setup teams won't be buffed in any way. They will stop firing at will (that is what they do at the moment) and their projectiles will always be able to reach any designated location - 1) no obstacle that is not a shot blocker stops them (it doesn't turn them into a manticore); 2) you can dodge it like you do now.

My only big question now is not how people embrace the change (we can discuss it later on, but I honestly see nothing what can be discussed - no buffs/nerfs were proposed). The question is about the possibility of this change. More specifically the implementation of this additional button that regulates the firing mode and the applicability of the HT's bioplasma firing pattern (as far as I can tell it is still the same projectile but absolutely reliable now, it doesn't ignore sight blockers). As I said - SAFE & RELIABLE. The state all the other artillery units in. Not better, not worse. Just that.
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby BaptismByLoli » Fri 11 Jul, 2014 8:41 pm

If anything, I support a 'Hold Fire/Fire At Will' order

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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Dalakh » Fri 11 Jul, 2014 11:11 pm

Actually I would support it too. Being able to halt fire on pdevs without having to mismantle would be great and would save the life of many ASM in the world, among other melee squads/commanders. :lol:
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Myrdal » Fri 11 Jul, 2014 11:21 pm

Sub_Zero wrote:The question is about the possibility of this change. More specifically the implementation of this additional button that regulates the firing mode and the applicability of the HT's bioplasma firing pattern

Yes to both (probably). I've no experience modding the UI but I'm positive adding such a function to a hotkey isn't a problem. Oh and since you went ahead and proclaimed the bioplasma to be perfect I gotta ask, does it not misfire at all anymore? I'd also like to know how the GUO hook fares now since it got similiar adjustments.
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Forestradio » Fri 11 Jul, 2014 11:24 pm

I used the GUO hook a bunch recently and it seemed to work fine.

There's also an ability in the campaign for The Ancient when armed with a plasma cannon where he fires several shots in the air, somewhat like the tankbusta barrage. Not commenting on any balance stuff (pdevs and noise marines seem fine to me) but there's an animation for shooting stuff in the air for sure.
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby ol'smithy » Sat 12 Jul, 2014 10:42 am

I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading here. The p-dev's damage is considered "balanced" because it misses its target sometimes? In what world does that make any sense? Especially considering this is a competitive RTS game
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Swift » Sat 12 Jul, 2014 11:47 am

Because only a fool would tank such damage. The point is the damage is good, to stop it from wiping everything it has to be avaoidable. Also, competitive RTS? This isn't Dawn of Starcraft :P
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby David-CZ » Sat 12 Jul, 2014 3:33 pm

ol'smithy wrote:The p-dev's damage is considered "balanced" because it misses its target sometimes?
If it misses because the opposing player avoided it then yes. If it misses because it hits terrain then it can be either I guess. As mentioned before hitting a massive staircase is a poor positioning. Hitting minor obsticles barely visible from default camera view should be fixed if possible.
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Atlas » Sat 12 Jul, 2014 8:19 pm

Discreet wrote:If anything, I support a 'Hold Fire/Fire At Will' order
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby ol'smithy » Sat 12 Jul, 2014 11:19 pm

David-CZ wrote: Hitting minor obsticles barely visible from default camera view should be fixed if possible.


Completely agree
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Broodwich » Sun 13 Jul, 2014 3:01 am

I'm a fan of the small arc thing. It makes more sense too, given its a big slow ball of plasma. Gravity anyone? :P

D cannon is t3 and doesnt kb, or have as big of aoe as pdevs. They are pretty fuckin powerful for sure but I wouldnt say op
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Aertes » Mon 14 Jul, 2014 7:12 am

The only thing I think that could be an interesting add for set-up teams is a stance toggle button. For example:

"Set-up Button": It makes the unit ready it's heavy weaponry. After a short set-up time, the unit will be immobile, son can't move except turning in the spot, working like a turret. This way you can issue fire orders being sure that if you miss when you clic on the enemy, the unit won't start a movement command with all its gather up and re-set-up process. The "Set-up" stance ends immediately if the unit takes a melee hit or is commanded to Retreat.

"Gather up Button". It ends the "set-up" state. The unit won't fire its set-up weapon and won't start the "set up" process unless the previous button is clicked, so it's more mobile but needs more micro management. While in this state, the other weapons form the squad (like bolter marines in devastators and havoks or catapult eldars in grav platforms) could deal more damage
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Superhooper01 » Mon 14 Jul, 2014 10:45 am

Have to agree that a hold fire stance would be great as i often use noise marines with blastmaster who can be a great unit to stop vp caps can be flippy stupid sometimes not only sometimes charging up a shot for it simply to misfire but be just as bad to hitting allied shit so i would actually like a change if it could be added.
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Forestradio » Mon 14 Jul, 2014 3:21 pm

If artillery units are going to be adjusted in some way, can the plasma cannon dread be looked at?

Even with the range increase this thing still has less than standard weapon range (bolters, shootas, etc) .

Either increase the range a bit more (and decrease the damage too), or give it a higher rate of fire (but with less damage per shot) or keep it as is and add a plasma damage DoT to the ground it hits after each shot.
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby David-CZ » Mon 14 Jul, 2014 5:10 pm

Aertes wrote:The only thing I think that could be an interesting add for set-up teams is a stance toggle button. For example:

"Set-up Button": It makes the unit ready it's heavy weaponry. After a short set-up time, the unit will be immobile, son can't move except turning in the spot, working like a turret. This way you can issue fire orders being sure that if you miss when you clic on the enemy, the unit won't start a movement command with all its gather up and re-set-up process. The "Set-up" stance ends immediately if the unit takes a melee hit or is commanded to Retreat.

"Gather up Button". It ends the "set-up" state. The unit won't fire its set-up weapon and won't start the "set up" process unless the previous button is clicked, so it's more mobile but needs more micro management. While in this state, the other weapons form the squad (like bolter marines in devastators and havoks or catapult eldars in grav platforms) could deal more damage
At first I liked the idea. Then I realized that it would make flanking nearly impossible which could make all HWT overly strong. Hold fire button sounds like the best idea I think.
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Arbit » Mon 14 Jul, 2014 7:40 pm

Well as long as there's still a de-setup and re-setup time when turning, it sounds fine. Basically it would just lock the set up team so attempting to issue an attack order and missing doesn't de-setup the team at a crucial time. If he means the se tup team would be locked in place like a turret but be able to freely turn i.e. have 360 degree coverage, IMO that would make suppression teams way too powerful. I also don't see much reason is increasing the ranged damage of the backup dudes when in "gather up" stance.

I think it would be simpler to make a "lockdown" stance where the squad will disregard a right-click movement order once set up (ideally they would still respond to a held right click and OFC a retreat order) and a "free movement" stance where the team operates exactly like they do now. Assuming it's possible to have unit specific stances, you could make these the two stances the default and get rid of the current ranged/melee stance for set up teams because how often does anyone intentionally put a set up team in melee stance?
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Vapor » Mon 14 Jul, 2014 7:52 pm

Honestly I don't understand why right clicking on an enemy unit outside of your firing arc causes the setup team to de-setup. The only thing that should tear down setup teams is issuing a move command. Maybe it's just a preference thing though, I use A->leftclick to attack enemies with setup teams so that I don't get fucked by this.

Arbit wrote:how often does anyone intentionally put a set up team in melee stance?


Probably never, force melee is enough for those rare situations where your setup team can tie up the enemy setup team in melee (which is hilarious). :|
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Aertes » Mon 14 Jul, 2014 9:20 pm

David-CZ wrote:I realized that it would make flanking nearly impossible which could make all HWT overly strong. Hold fire button sounds like the best idea I think.


Of course, turning on the spot would also need the player to change the orientation manually and a gather and set-up process, that was the idea, but the unit wouldn't move unnecesarily.
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Sub_Zero » Sat 19 Jul, 2014 1:22 pm

Hakon,

I can say the only thing - It has never missed since I started playing the mod with the latest update (2.3.0).

I really hope this issue is considered by the developers.
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Re: Making artillery units reliable and safe

Postby Nurland » Sat 19 Jul, 2014 10:29 pm

GUO hook still fails sometimes for me.
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