Make the Inquisitor great again!

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Inekura
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Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby Inekura » Tue 01 Sep, 2020 11:58 am

Hi fellow DoW Players!
There are some things about the Inquisitor that just aren´t right and since this topic doesn´t seem to be taken serious on discord I´ll try my luck and write a little thread in the hope that those issues get some more recognition.

I´ll divide the issues in 2 categories: Lackluster for its price / bugged

Let´s start with the bugged stuff shall we?

Holy Pyre: The holy pyre itself is a great ability but it got one major bug that´s really annoying. If the Inq gets kb while casting the pyre the cd and energy cost gets reset and she will instantly cast it again after standing up. In theory that is nice because you get a 2nd cast of the pyre but in practice it´s super bad because you can´t retreat while casting this ability. This can lead to her beeing stuck in a animation for up to 7 seconds.
how to fix it? give us the option to retreat out of the cast instead of locking the hero in place

Judgement: While in theory it´s a great ability it bugs out around 70% of times leading to you not only wasting 20 seconds waiting time but also 100 energy in total without any return. This bug can be game losing in certain scenarios. Techpriest Noot said it´s oddly coded so it could be hard to fix. hmm.
how to fix? either get rid of the ability completly and adjust the cost drastically or rework the ability (my take on it is to have judgement cast instantly without the need to judge but remove all damage so that it becomes a disruption tool, which is in fact her entire design)

Assail: there are two effects on assail. effect 1 locks the enemy in place and the 2nd deals a good amount of piercing dmg. the 1st effect isn´t channeled while the 2nd is. Could we get a statement on how it is supposed to work nowadays? also another indicator would be nice because atm your opponents units just have a seizure if you don´t channel it. (also assail doesn´t work against rippers which is kinda odd)
how to fix? well if we wanna think about ways how to fix it we should get a statement first on how its supposed to work in the first place


Now for the lackluster parts of her kit:

Inferno Pistol: before you jump at me and yell "how dare you call it lackluster" hear me out. the inferno pistol is compared to the other melta options for heroes a) overpriced b) got average dps c) the ability doesn´t work most of the time. here some quick compariosons:
Tm melta: 100/30 100dph 41.18dps 30 range
LG melta: 100/25 105dph 43.23dps 24 range amazing buff ability
Inq melta: 150/50 100dph 43.48dps 30 range bugged ability
I hope you see the differences yourself.

Servo Skull a sad excuse of a wargear. the only use this one has is to get some quick snipes with a manti and to get a bit more sight range
how to fix? increase the duration of the reveal from 5 seconds to 10 seconds

Crossbow Boltpistol while in fact it´s a great control tool and turns her into a decent ranged hero even after you spend so many resources on this upgrade (130/25) you have barely more dps than default LG.
how to fix? give it a slight dps increase or get her fotm up with this upgrade. I mean even knob got 100% fotm

Hellfury while overall pretty solid it´s a joke that the inquisitors "flame drop global" deals no damage to turrets (which are supposed to be weak to flame types) and no extra damage to garrisoned units.
how to fix? make us able to whack some turrets/ garrisons without threatening gen farm bashes. I am pretty sure we can think of something if we compare it to dark flames (cs) or immo (wl)

Thanks for reading my little rambling about this topic.
What do you guys think about this?


edit: spelling
PianoMan
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby PianoMan » Tue 01 Sep, 2020 5:13 pm

hard to play race inefficient in noobs' hands what a surprise
she's fine :)
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Shroom
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby Shroom » Tue 01 Sep, 2020 7:43 pm

PianoMan wrote:hard to play race inefficient in noobs' hands what a surprise
she's fine :)

thats racist
Inekura
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby Inekura » Wed 02 Sep, 2020 12:02 am

PianoMan wrote:hard to play race inefficient in noobs' hands what a surprise
she's fine :)


yea cus I didn´t list facts/ stats and bugs at all and its clearly all my fault :)
expected nothing less of you
Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Wed 02 Sep, 2020 6:06 am

You use Assail by standing in place and channeling it. Works best against low health high number squads with some Guardsmen focusing. So you can get easy wipes.

Use abilities while not in melee combat to stop them from bugging out. Judgement is fine. Inferno Pistol is fine. Don't compare it to other commanders. They're in different armies. And they can't go invis like the Inq...
Inekura
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby Inekura » Wed 02 Sep, 2020 10:19 am

Kami melee range got nothing to do with it as it's coded oddly.
Also did you even know about the two separate effects of assail?
Inekura
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby Inekura » Wed 02 Sep, 2020 10:21 am

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:You use Assail by standing in place and channeling it. Works best against low health high number squads with some Guardsmen focusing. So you can get easy wipes.

Use abilities while not in melee combat to stop them from bugging out. Judgement is fine. Inferno Pistol is fine. Don't compare it to other commanders. They're in different armies. And they can't go invis like the Inq...

Also "don't compare them to other commanders they are in different armys" >>>>> Lord General is which race again?
Inekura
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby Inekura » Wed 02 Sep, 2020 10:22 am

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:You use Assail by standing in place and channeling it. Works best against low health high number squads with some Guardsmen focusing. So you can get easy wipes.

Use abilities while not in melee combat to stop them from bugging out. Judgement is fine. Inferno Pistol is fine. Don't compare it to other commanders. They're in different armies. And they can't go invis like the Inq...

Judgement is fine means you didn't play her much
PianoMan
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby PianoMan » Wed 02 Sep, 2020 11:47 am

Inekura wrote:
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:You use Assail by standing in place and channeling it. Works best against low health high number squads with some Guardsmen focusing. So you can get easy wipes.

Use abilities while not in melee combat to stop them from bugging out. Judgement is fine. Inferno Pistol is fine. Don't compare it to other commanders. They're in different armies. And they can't go invis like the Inq...

Judgement is fine means you didn't play her much

judgement changes the outcome of many matchups, especially inq vs nids, it's fine.
Inekura
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby Inekura » Wed 02 Sep, 2020 12:01 pm

PianoMan wrote:
Inekura wrote:
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:You use Assail by standing in place and channeling it. Works best against low health high number squads with some Guardsmen focusing. So you can get easy wipes.

Use abilities while not in melee combat to stop them from bugging out. Judgement is fine. Inferno Pistol is fine. Don't compare it to other commanders. They're in different armies. And they can't go invis like the Inq...

Judgement is fine means you didn't play her much

judgement changes the outcome of many matchups, especially inq vs nids, it's fine.


Dude can you not read Piano..? it's not about the effect of the ability it's about the ability glitching out all the time
PianoMan
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby PianoMan » Wed 02 Sep, 2020 12:15 pm

Inekura wrote:
PianoMan wrote:
Inekura wrote:Judgement is fine means you didn't play her much

judgement changes the outcome of many matchups, especially inq vs nids, it's fine.


Dude can you not read Piano..? it's not about the effect of the ability it's about the ability glitching out all the time

its about as reliable as flesh hook is
and yes sorry i couldn't be bothered to read, afterall why would i lol
Inekura
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby Inekura » Wed 02 Sep, 2020 12:35 pm

PianoMan wrote:
Inekura wrote:
PianoMan wrote:judgement changes the outcome of many matchups, especially inq vs nids, it's fine.


Dude can you not read Piano..? it's not about the effect of the ability it's about the ability glitching out all the time

its about as reliable as flesh hook is
and yes sorry i couldn't be bothered to read, afterall why would i lol


The ability itself is really strong I agree but it's less reliable than fleshhook.
I'd tell you to look into the technical discussion of the main discord if you weren't banned there
Inekura
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby Inekura » Wed 02 Sep, 2020 12:41 pm

Also that aside what do you think about the other points
Inekura
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby Inekura » Wed 02 Sep, 2020 12:43 pm

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:You use Assail by standing in place and channeling it. Works best against low health high number squads with some Guardsmen focusing. So you can get easy wipes.

Use abilities while not in melee combat to stop them from bugging out. Judgement is fine. Inferno Pistol is fine. Don't compare it to other commanders. They're in different armies. And they can't go invis like the Inq...


Also good luck getting holy pyre off if you are not in melee with a cast range of 5 :)
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Shroom
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby Shroom » Wed 02 Sep, 2020 1:06 pm

so inferno pistol isnt the worst of the melta weapons, its easily the best.
what does inq have that tm and lg dont have?
-melee charge
-higher speed(only tm, lg also has the same speed as inq)
-kb immunity accessory
- ability that can basically instawipe squads

"but broooo its buuuuugged" ok whatever, but the threat of the ability is going to force the unit you cast it on to stay back. if av is pushing a chimera, it will force av unit to stay back. if nids want to do anything at all with ravs or warriors, the ability will force ravs or warriors to stay back.

either you stay back or you: A)gamble that the ability bugs out or B) hope that 300 damage on targeted model and ~150 or whatever on the other models wont wipe your squad. lg ability doesnt do that, tms melta gun doesnt even have a shitting ability.

chase potential. inq has a melee charge, inq has immunity to knockback accessory.
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Shroom
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby Shroom » Wed 02 Sep, 2020 1:07 pm

ive personally had bbbos wipe out havoks in my fucking base man, please stop saying that inferno is "lackluster"
Inekura
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby Inekura » Wed 02 Sep, 2020 1:17 pm

Shroom wrote:ive personally had bbbos wipe out havoks in my fucking base man, please stop saying that inferno is "lackluster"


2 posts above I agreed that the ability is really strong.
Also it's not like the other heroes have no synergy with their wargears.
Tm got a wargear that gives him passive 10%more dmg orbs mark target
LG got the commi who adds 15% more dmg to the entire squad and his ability buffs the shit out of your army.
I think you failed to read what I originally wrote.
I don't want the inferno pistol buffed I want it reworked.
Why is it so hard to read something carefully before you give a opinion on it
PianoMan
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby PianoMan » Wed 02 Sep, 2020 1:23 pm

ok i read it now
you could make crossbow 20 power and it would be fine
servoskull is fine, you have 4 choices and something being very niche doesn't make it useless
melta pistol would be fine even if there was a 20% chance that it backfires on your unit
inq is fine, the race is shit
Inekura
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby Inekura » Wed 02 Sep, 2020 1:26 pm

PianoMan wrote:ok i read it now
you could make crossbow 20 power and it would be fine
servoskull is fine, you have 4 choices and something being very niche doesn't make it useless
melta pistol would be fine even if there was a 20% chance that it backfires on your unit
inq is fine, the race is shit

Thanks for a unbiased comment finally
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Shroom
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby Shroom » Wed 02 Sep, 2020 1:36 pm

whenever you go and say something ridiculous like inq inferno pistol lackluster it becomes very hard to take you seriously, or want to read the rest of your post.

your proposed rework doesnt make sense to me. the wargear is good, the ability is fine, and doesn't need a rework. its an ability on a wargear that costs 50 power. no, the wargear should not get a cost decrease ("overpriced,") its a 100 dph melta range 30 sidearm on a melee hero.

"wargear synergies" once again, neither of the other 2 heros come close to the chase potential inferno pistol + rosarius inq has.
PianoMan
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby PianoMan » Wed 02 Sep, 2020 1:38 pm

i'm gonna go off the rails and not talk about inq, I think the biggest problem IG has is that you need to buy catachans in almost every single game and they just come out too late, they should cost 30 power out of the gate because you just lose way too much momentum which you never did in 2.9.2 because you could've bought 3gms which gave you a big enough advantage to never be bothered by infiltration units or by the enemy splitting you up.

30 power catas with a 5 power non-die last sarge in t1, similiar to what they were in retail
spotters also do not pay off, the only reason they worked in 2.9.2 was because you had such a huge advantage and could double down, right now your opponent has way too much time to adjust to your build and punish you too heavily for buying them, they need another ability, something as simple as a heavily nerfed mark target perhaps
Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Thu 03 Sep, 2020 12:12 am

Inekura wrote:Kami melee range got nothing to do with it as it's coded oddly.


If you're out in the open with no line of sight problems or anything to disrupt you abilities generally don't bug out and work as intended. I used to main Inq and all hers bugs have workarounds.
Inekura
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby Inekura » Thu 03 Sep, 2020 12:17 am

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:
Inekura wrote:Kami melee range got nothing to do with it as it's coded oddly.


If you're out in the open with no line of sight problems or anything to disrupt you abilities generally don't bug out and work as intended. I used to main Inq and all hers bugs have workarounds.

So you are trying to tell me that I keep misinterpreting bugs and that two of our friendly coders on discord who can SEE in the technical details HOW and WHY they bug out are wrong?
Wow sorry
PianoMan
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Re: Make the Inquisitor great again!

Postby PianoMan » Thu 03 Sep, 2020 10:11 am

Inekura wrote:
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:
Inekura wrote:Kami melee range got nothing to do with it as it's coded oddly.


If you're out in the open with no line of sight problems or anything to disrupt you abilities generally don't bug out and work as intended. I used to main Inq and all hers bugs have workarounds.

So you are trying to tell me that I keep misinterpreting bugs and that two of our friendly coders on discord who can SEE in the technical details HOW and WHY they bug out are wrong?
Wow sorry

bro he used to main her, he's obviously right
somebody pull up the parakami vs fathom casts torpid made when he was tired of kami's trolling

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