SM and 1v1

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Broodwich
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SM and 1v1

Postby Broodwich » Wed 02 Oct, 2019 3:39 pm

Greetings

I think most people can agree that SM are not that great in 1v1, and it's because they get crushed early game before they can get going. Mid/late game are quite fine IMO, so giving them some help getting there is where i'd like to focus.

FC is by far the best hero option for most matchups, and though I think Apo and TM could use some love, focusing on units will give them both help.

Option 1: Buff level 1 tac HP
Current HP leveling: 350 385 424 466
Proposed HP leveling: 385 385 424 466

This is kinda a novel idea, but gives tacs some more survivability out the gate, and makes bleed less likely. They can risk getting into melee with shot up shees/sluggas in the first engagement or two, and can better deal with shooty blobs. Tac bleed delays your T1.5 units and gens and really puts you further back in a race you're already losing.

Since we're only be changing the level 1 tacs, this won't scale to be a nightmare in the mid game. Also, since we're only changing HP, this won't increase SM's low wipe potential

Option 2: Make scouts/shotguns cheaper
Scout cost to 200
Shotguns to either 50/15 or 75/10

SM need shotguns to deal with early melee, but getting one or two delays T1.5 units and gens. Making anti-melee cheaper will help with rushes as well as map control

~~~
Thoughts? Remember, SM is quite ok in 3v3, so any changes should try not to make them even more potent in team games
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Nurland » Wed 02 Oct, 2019 11:21 pm

Out of these two, I would go for minor Scout buffs
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Asmon
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Asmon » Fri 04 Oct, 2019 12:04 pm

I strongly disagree here. I don't think SM lacks anything in T1. I only think that at a high skill level they are more difficult to use because you need to really focus on scouting (and the boyz are swift, have a big sight range and are possibliy infiltrated) in order to pick your battles and position your slower main force accordingly.

In a way it is similar to eldar play, except that Eldar have the advantage of better mobility which allow damage avoidance, while SM has the power to endure a bit of damage if they're caught up in a bad positioning.

Other races can either survive the bleed or have easier support (heretic worship for instance) and therefore require a little less micro. As SM you're pretty much forced to get 2 scout squads, but they prove so useful, even still in T3, that it's not a bad thing. And shotguns certainly don't need a buff or a cost reduction.

Ofc if you don't use your scouts well you'll find yourself losing.

Also the TSM health buff in T1 sounds very minor and doesn't feel like it would change anything, except frustrate even more those who feel cheated when a whole tsm squads retreats with less than 100 hp total.
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby crog » Fri 04 Oct, 2019 2:31 pm

I disagree.
2 Scouts Shotguns 1tac and 1 asm is already a very strong build. It will counter everything in t1 vs eldar,nids,orks for instance.
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby PianoMan » Fri 04 Oct, 2019 4:44 pm

crog wrote:I disagree.
2 Scouts Shotguns 1tac and 1 asm is already a very strong build. It will counter everything in t1 vs eldar,nids,orks for instance.

these 3 races will absolutely shit on that build while having much better eco, i'd really like to see how you manage to use 2 shotgun scouts against orks, or how you manage to beat nids in t1 as space marines
feel free to show me ingaem
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Broodwich » Fri 04 Oct, 2019 8:10 pm

I suppose i shouldn't be surprised, but so far we've got two eldar players saying SM is fine :D

Essentially what piano said. To control that build you spend far less than SM, and get your units out faster. By the time ASM hit the field, assuming you DIDN'T get shotgun scouts and melee DIDN'T bash your gens already, those other races can have builds that already counter them.
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Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Fri 04 Oct, 2019 9:36 pm

crog wrote:I disagree.
2 Scouts Shotguns 1tac and 1 asm is already a very strong build. It will counter everything in t1 vs eldar,nids,orks for instance.


Scouts can only be used back and defensive due to how easily they are shot down by things like Tacs or Dire Avengers. You need a Sarge on them for the durability if you want to use them more offensively and that costs 25 power.
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby RiceMuncher » Sat 05 Oct, 2019 1:09 am

The main weaknesses of SM in 1v1, are a lack of mobilty (which gets less impactful in team games, esp 3v3), expensive economy regardless of bleed and vulnerability to power melee.

This is ok with good micro and positioning. However, because SM models are so expensive, bleeds can become super costly.
In addition, if you are forced to retreat because you dont want to bleed or whatever, it takes you more time to regain map control because SM is so slow.
As a result - a few mistakes early on will likely end your game.

Going further, some races have more potential to punish SM mistakes more so than others, making certain metas really bad for SM.

At the moment, IMO,

Eldar - fine, beware of flanks and nades. Issue is with falcon rush and cost to counter.
IG - cant outbleed guardsmen or hold v sentinel. T1 generally lose.They will rush chimera and you will be forced to invest in shit av to counter vehicles whilst ig has cost effective gms to end you.
Nids - weighted towards nids, their economy means they will always have more than you regardless of play.
Chaos - fine (PC is strong tho)
GK - broken, will crush you in every tier. YOu will never get a power bash off then their paladins come if you make it to T3.
Orks - They outshoot you and outmelee you with jump squads. sooooo in T1, you will most likely lose your power. Then ork truk comes and its pretty hard to counter.

When you get to T2, SM have glaring issues with AV - expensive and not enough damage to punish reckless play.

If you survive the vehicle rush, you should be in a good spot though unless you play v GK who win in every tier so just rage quit.


Suggestions

Buff SM AV in T2, slightly, decrease missle cost, increase firerate of lascannon.
Maybe increase range/melee resist of T1 tacs by like 5%
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby crog » Sat 05 Oct, 2019 11:22 am

PianoMan wrote:
crog wrote:I disagree.
2 Scouts Shotguns 1tac and 1 asm is already a very strong build. It will counter everything in t1 vs eldar,nids,orks for instance.

these 3 races will absolutely shit on that build while having much better eco, i'd really like to see how you manage to use 2 shotgun scouts against orks, or how you manage to beat nids in t1 as space marines
feel free to show me ingaem

If sm blobs up with asm u won't "shit" on them as Eldar. U can just hope to defend your power. (recent torpid saying on his cast). However you have to consider that sm has one of the strongest late tier a move blobbs, so balance wise it doesn't make sense to improve their early game further. Surviving vehicle rush should never be an issue. Melts bomb, Las cannon (with snare) or even rocket launcher tac marine or FC power fist can easily wreck every t2 vehicle. Bleeding model hurts yes that is part of the game, but how often do you see tac marines surviving with all models with 100hp? While other range units from mentioned races are like glass canons.
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby PianoMan » Sat 05 Oct, 2019 2:46 pm

crog wrote:
PianoMan wrote:
crog wrote:I disagree.
2 Scouts Shotguns 1tac and 1 asm is already a very strong build. It will counter everything in t1 vs eldar,nids,orks for instance.

these 3 races will absolutely shit on that build while having much better eco, i'd really like to see how you manage to use 2 shotgun scouts against orks, or how you manage to beat nids in t1 as space marines
feel free to show me ingaem

If sm blobs up with asm u won't "shit" on them as Eldar. U can just hope to defend your power. (recent torpid saying on his cast). However you have to consider that sm has one of the strongest late tier a move blobbs, so balance wise it doesn't make sense to improve their early game further. Surviving vehicle rush should never be an issue. Melts bomb, Las cannon (with snare) or even rocket launcher tac marine or FC power fist can easily wreck every t2 vehicle. Bleeding model hurts yes that is part of the game, but how often do you see tac marines surviving with all models with 100hp? While other range units from mentioned races are like glass canons.

yes you will shit on them as eldar, im much better than you at both sides of the matchup so i know better :)
torpid never said that, time stamp or gtfo
the problem isnt that they cant kill a vehicle, the problem is that they're way too cost inefficient at it
how often do other races have to retreat because a single model loss can cost you the game?
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boss
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby boss » Sat 05 Oct, 2019 4:04 pm

Can we not bitch about match ups pls can always go make a new post about match ups somewhere else.

From my point of view playing sm there t1 is mostly fine atm I don't think tacs need more heath or the scout shotguns need to be lowed, scout shotguns come around the same time as other starting upgrades and it help deal with melee and just more damage.

Rice pretty much said what's wrong with sm there t2 is lacking options as well as av you get 2 fucking arty units in t2 both of them are useless in 1v1 and your subcommand/ support don't even support well you only get 1 buff ability so you are just left with razorbacks and dread along with squad upgrades dullass t2 for sm.
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Broodwich
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Broodwich » Thu 10 Oct, 2019 5:03 pm

I definitely agree on the SM AV buff, missle tacs have been a joke since retail.

Otherwise, all i'm hearing is buff tacs as a suggestion to not getting facerolled in t1... which i already suggested.

Any other suggestions? We already know the issues with SM, I'm asking for how to fix it
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Torpid » Fri 11 Oct, 2019 1:05 am

I agree with Rice and I don't really feel like they get steamrolled in T1 except by warlock/warboss who are just really oppressive heroes anyway so not sure that is an SM problem as much as it is a WB/WL problem.

Buff the early T2, in particular the AV is my thoughts.
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Deuce Bigalow
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Deuce Bigalow » Fri 11 Oct, 2019 10:59 pm

Sorry for double post. See below.
Last edited by Deuce Bigalow on Sat 12 Oct, 2019 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Deuce Bigalow
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Deuce Bigalow » Fri 11 Oct, 2019 11:07 pm

Hi Guys,

Just throwing in my 2 cents. I really feel like SM struggle in 1v1 on larger maps like Calderis or Hive Mind vs. the Ravener. Beastlord was a very good Ravener to could really exploit that first 5 mins of the game and have you running all over the place. Imo, that's more of an issue with tunnels being a bit too easy to use. I think the capacity should go down to 2-3 squads to force the time invested in using the tunnels to be a bit longer.

Another issue with larger maps in SM vs. IG 1v1 is the mobility and pressure that double sent builds can apply.

Are these thing unbeatable? No. However, the are easier to use than they are to counter in my opinion.

So, basically as SM the counter would be to turtle, right? Well, there are issues with timing whereby if you don't start getting out the right units in very specific windows, you lose the game. For instance, you go fast devs vs. warboss. Provided that you didn't already lose the first engagement (which you will if you don't go double scout), you have a very small window before he can have stormboys out on the field. Or, he can just invest in big shootas (one combined with proper play can force the dev off). If at any point you make a misplay, the game is effectively over because the ork can apply so much pressure to the gens early on. Why?

Consider if flamer tacs gave them a health upgrade and power melee on the model holding the flamer. Amazing to me that the slugga burna for incredibly cheap 15 power give those things IN ADDITION TO an ability that is strong enough to melt commanders in buildings. It's truly baffling to me how inbalanced this game is sometimes. In my opinion the slugga burna should be 20 power.

Also, I would bring the missile launcher to 30 power and allow tacs to swap wargear (same time interval) without repurchasing. I truly think that brings them into their role. What do you guys think?

I don't want to argue and bicker, I just hope some of this helps in any way. Thanks.
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Faultron » Sat 12 Oct, 2019 8:43 am

Deuce Bigalow wrote:Hi Guys,

Consider if flamer tacs gave them a health upgrade and power melee on the model holding the flamer. Amazing to me that the slugga burna for incredibly cheap 15 power give those things IN ADDITION TO an ability that is strong enough to melt commanders in buildings. It's truly baffling to me how inbalanced this game is sometimes. In my opinion the slugga burna should be 20 power.

Also, I would bring the missile launcher to 30 power and allow tacs to swap wargear (same time interval) without repurchasing. I truly think that brings them into their role. What do you guys think?

I don't want to argue and bicker, I just hope some of this helps in any way. Thanks.


tacs can already swap wargear kinda, its called sternguard veterans
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boss
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby boss » Sat 12 Oct, 2019 9:09 am

I like what kicking asked for aka Deuce for tacs swapping between weapons for free after paying for them, missile launchers are already crap and never want to buy them you pay loads and yea tacs don't feel like a flexible unit for sm.
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby PianoMan » Sat 12 Oct, 2019 9:14 am

the tac flamer is already the best tac weapon, giving it power melee fixes nothing and giving them more hp if they have it makes it pretty much mandatory

sm need a more efficient way to counter melee units in t2 especially, a better transition from t1,5 to t2 and less power-hunger in t2
putting librarian into t1 could fix these issues, obviously he'd have to be reworked a little but you're not going to fix anything if you keep the t1 roster the same unless you make one of the units stupidly overpowered

also i'd like if the t2 drop pod dropped only sternguard in t2, the unit is already insta-buy despite its absurdly high cost and it still doesnt give you extra presence due to replacing your tacs, a 400/60/200 global for sterns would be much better imo, would also prevent the dumb lose everything use drop pods to delay game by 2 minutes then concede cus you're baselocked localghost strat

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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby LOCALgHOST » Sat 12 Oct, 2019 9:52 pm

About mobility T2 and so on

i think the most problem comes from the high power cost of ASM and tacs ML. That's why SM suffers early ORC/ELDAR reinforce wagons that much.

ASM and Missile tac should be more cheaper on power. (-10) All other changes will be massive imbalance. Like Flamer tac squad with power sword will be the DreamTeam Squad :)))

Also Libby should be cheaper in total cost of ownership.
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Deuce Bigalow
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Deuce Bigalow » Sun 13 Oct, 2019 2:49 am

I brought up the tactical flamer only for the sake of comparison, and was not actually suggesting that we implement such a change.
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby RiceMuncher » Sun 13 Oct, 2019 4:04 am

Similiar themes. - sm has limited av in t2.
Missle tacs - too expensive, poor dps, long windup time.
Asm melta bomb - soft counter with long time before detonate.
Lascannon - slow windup speed.
Vegenance rounds - soft ,low dps, cant chase
Whirlwind -soft counter, sometimes buggy

Out of all of them, only las cannon is a reasonable deterrent or missle tac + asm (very risky tho)

Tm - melta gun pretty decent
Fc -powerfist , good if it wont get bugged due to vecihle pathing.
Apo - hahahahaha

This makes vecihle rushes rlly powerful v sm.
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boss
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby boss » Mon 14 Oct, 2019 7:40 pm

Sm av not limited most units has av just most of the used units has subpar av compare to other races.
Sm lascannon the worst out of them all simply fix is just remove the wind up time like the chaos one.
Missile tacs are overprice you lose your main line dps for 130 damage for av, stenguard have more damage while keeping other damage types so yea get them instead.

Theses 2 changes will just make sm av just much much better and its an easy fix and easy buffs for sm.
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby LOCALgHOST » Mon 14 Oct, 2019 8:48 pm

agree with boss - these changes could help but still wanna Missile tacs/asm discount
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Tue 15 Oct, 2019 2:08 am

I would honestly just want .5 more regen on Tacs/ASM but I know that would be op combined with Apo aura. Maybe +.5 regen on all non-Scout Space Marines and Apo's aura reduced to *2 from *3. Just an idea. Not sure how it would play out.
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Deuce Bigalow » Wed 16 Oct, 2019 4:32 am

boss wrote:Sm av not limited most units has av just most of the used units has subpar av compare to other races.
Sm lascannon the worst out of them all simply fix is just remove the wind up time like the chaos one.
Missile tacs are overprice you lose your main line dps for 130 damage for av, stenguard have more damage while keeping other damage types so yea get them instead.

Theses 2 changes will just make sm av just much much better and its an easy fix and easy buffs for sm.


Agree with everything boss said above. Also, allowing tacs to swap wargear without repurchase (yes, I know we said it before). Just those 3 changes (remove las windup, decrease misslle cost, allow tac weapon swaps) would put SM on less of a backfoot in 1v1 (especially in that early T2 window where they suffer).
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Deuce Bigalow
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Deuce Bigalow » Wed 16 Oct, 2019 4:41 am

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:I would honestly just want .5 more regen on Tacs/ASM but I know that would be op combined with Apo aura. Maybe +.5 regen on all non-Scout Space Marines and Apo's aura reduced to *2 from *3. Just an idea. Not sure how it would play out.


I also like this idea because SM regen rate at base in 1v1 is absolutely abysmal for TM and FC. So you could buff theirs without buffing Apo's.

But I don't want to come off as too much in favor of SM since I used to main them. I really am pushing for fairness here, and having played hundreds of hours of 1v1s as random, I can say that if trying to win I would prefer any other race to SM.

Thanks
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Tex » Tue 22 Oct, 2019 3:14 pm

Wouldn't it just make sense to let devastator marines be able to upgrade to the lascannon even after they have purchased the advanced targetting? I would still want the lascannon upgrade to be irreversible, but I think this would cover a lot of ground for helping SM to transition from T1 into T2 with their more difficult matchups. I'm not sure if it means vengence rounds will need to be slightly toned down or whatever, but this really seems like an obvious choice to me because I'm very much against any further buffs to scouts or tacs or any other common unit for that matter.

Essentially, my belief is that SM fully depend upon forcing off the most disruptive unit as quickly as possible, or they crumble. SM are meant to be played with combined arms and inter-squad dependency, so, if there is disruption to the formation, you are quickly routed.

matchup examples,

Against eldar this allows SM to very quickly put decent damage on a key unit like banshees or a warlock from relatively long range. I find that getting some early chip damage on the key eldar pieces is the difference maker in T1 engagements. If enough damage is done to the most disruptive squad or hero, then tacs can resume being bullies. The transition to the las cannon is an obvious boon because you can go from forcing the eldar to bleed more or run more in T1, and then being able to properly fend off a falcon.

Against orks this allows SM to accomplish relatively the same thing. Scouts have huge sight range, and this allows vengence rounds to make contact from maximum range. Target the most disruptive unit so that you immediately make it very risky for that unit to get near the bulk of your army. Stormboyz would be very wary to jump on your devs when they are already down 33% of their hp. Sluggas that have had even 25% of their hp removed cannot win a fight against tacs in T1. A warboss charging into vengence rounds won't even make it halfway before retreating or he risks death. Ultimately, shootas are going to still do their thing, but if you can remove the disruptive squad, then your formation should be able to deal with any kind of stand-in fire fight.
The transition to las cannon in T2 I don't think has to be as obvious for SM. Vengence rounds can put a lot of hurt on a truck, and there are so many other AV options for SM that even just the knowledge that YOU ARE NOW ABLE TO transition to a las cannon will force your opponent to drive their truck in a much less reckless manner.

Against nids I don't think this change would make a huge difference, but it still would be a nice perk. I've seen and played this matchup my fair share and it usually boils down to one thing: Can you defend your power and get to T2 without bleeding 200 VPs. If you can do these 2 things, you are probably in good shape. SM T2 can make nightmarish setups against nids and is more than capable of stopping Nid T3. The thing about nids that feels unfair is just how fast all their units are... (but this can be a conversation for another thread).

Against IG this is an obvious boon. Vengence rounds force sentinels to be ever so careful, and also allow you to put great damage onto a charging hero or even a backline GM squad. Then transitioning into las cannon allows for being setup and ready for the inevitable chimera push.

I have no commentary for the OM matchup as I have not played enough matches of it.

Against chaos I see this as being a substantial buff. Vengence rounds are super good against chaos T1 (especially chaos lord), again, with the help of scout vision, and then going into T2, your opponent's decision making should be very much affected by the knowledge that you can transition into a las cannon without having to buy another squad. It makes the auto-purchase of a blood crusher not so auto. If you can dissuade your opponent from forcing you to buy expensive supplementary AV upgrades as SM, you are loving life.

I'm very open to criticism on this... I could be way out to lunch as I'm only about 30 or 40 matches back in the mix from a year long break, but these are my thoughts regardless.
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Asmon
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Asmon » Tue 22 Oct, 2019 4:23 pm

I can agree on granting devs with VR the upgrade to a lascannon.

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