Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

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Solo.Wing
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Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

Postby Solo.Wing » Sun 16 Aug, 2020 5:01 pm

Seriously Ranger spam is the worst cancer that has to be removed. Please put a limit on their numbers, like 3 squads.
PianoMan
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Re: Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

Postby PianoMan » Sun 16 Aug, 2020 6:52 pm

no, multiple rangers is one of the worst builds you can ever go for and probably the most easy cheese build to counter, learn how to play against it instead of complaining
Solo.Wing
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Re: Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

Postby Solo.Wing » Mon 17 Aug, 2020 6:19 am

PianoMan wrote:no, multiple rangers is one of the worst builds you can ever go for and probably the most easy cheese build to counter, learn how to play against it instead of complaining

Dude, your statement may validate on 1v1 or 2v2, but 3v3 with similar skills is almost impossible to deal with unless you are freaking lucky to kill most of the squads at one counter or other 2 guys are noobs.

Can you explain how do you counter it as SM or CSM or Eldar if someone decided to use Ranger spam before the start of the game? :?
Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Mon 17 Aug, 2020 6:31 am

Ranger spam is a problem at the lower levels where people don't know how to use counters properly yet. It's not a problem at higher levels of play. You can never balance around inexperienced players without dramatically reducing the skill ceiling.

- Rangers can't gen bash or defend against a gen bash
- They're fragile and cost power to buy and reinforce so they slow tech
- They do no damage to vehicles
- They're only good at harassing and scouting

A quick vehicle is often the best answer. You can pressure and bleed them with a jump troop in T1. Or use a squad with cheap members like Guardsmen. Or a tanky unit infront of your army such as a shielded commander.

Make sure to push in T1 and bash gens when you can. If you turtle in a static position they'll pick you apart.
Solo.Wing
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Re: Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

Postby Solo.Wing » Mon 17 Aug, 2020 6:44 am

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Ranger spam is a problem at the lower levels where people don't know how to use counters properly yet. It's not a problem at higher levels of play. You can never balance around inexperienced players without dramatically reducing the skill ceiling.

- Rangers can't gen bash or defend against a gen bash
- They're fragile and cost power to buy and reinforce so they slow tech
- They do no damage to vehicles
- They're only good at harassing and scouting

A quick vehicle is often the best answer. You can pressure and bleed them with a jump troop in T1. Or use a squad with cheap members like Guardsmen. Or a tanky unit infront of your army such as a shielded commander.

Make sure to push in T1 and bash gens when you can. If you turtle in a static position they'll pick you apart.


Yeah, but I'm talking about 3v3. This Ranger spammer will hide behind other teamate's army and cheese all infantry squads he can see. They will behave complementarily and will take all resource points at their initial advantage, and they will head first to Tiers 2 and 3.

I can tell you this because I was on the side of a Ranger spammer yesterday. And it was impossible to deal with.
Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Mon 17 Aug, 2020 6:52 am

Solo.Wing wrote:
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Ranger spam is a problem at the lower levels where people don't know how to use counters properly yet. It's not a problem at higher levels of play. You can never balance around inexperienced players without dramatically reducing the skill ceiling.

- Rangers can't gen bash or defend against a gen bash
- They're fragile and cost power to buy and reinforce so they slow tech
- They do no damage to vehicles
- They're only good at harassing and scouting

A quick vehicle is often the best answer. You can pressure and bleed them with a jump troop in T1. Or use a squad with cheap members like Guardsmen. Or a tanky unit infront of your army such as a shielded commander.

Make sure to push in T1 and bash gens when you can. If you turtle in a static position they'll pick you apart.


Yeah, but I'm talking about 3v3. This Ranger spammer will hide behind other teamate's army and cheese all infantry squads he can see. They will behave complementarily and will take all resource points at their initial advantage, and they will head first to Tiers 2 and 3.

I can tell you this because I was on the side of a Ranger spammer yesterday. And it was impossible to deal with.


You and your teammate have to push against them. Rangers can't hold you back so you'll win and gen bash.
Solo.Wing
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Re: Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

Postby Solo.Wing » Mon 17 Aug, 2020 7:19 am

Solo.Wing wrote:
Solo.Wing wrote:
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:
You and your teammate have to push against them. Rangers can't hold you back so you'll win and gen bash.



No, I was a teammate with Ranger spammer and I crushed other guys with him. I supported him with Banshees and Guardians and nothing could stop us and dominated 80% of the map in less than 10 minutes of starting the game.

When this guy had 5 Ranger squads, he could instantly kill 2 models of Space Marine squad with one fucking volley. Do you think it is normal?
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Re: Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

Postby PianoMan » Mon 17 Aug, 2020 11:25 am

Solo.Wing wrote:
PianoMan wrote:no, multiple rangers is one of the worst builds you can ever go for and probably the most easy cheese build to counter, learn how to play against it instead of complaining

Dude, your statement may validate on 1v1 or 2v2, but 3v3 with similar skills is almost impossible to deal with unless you are freaking lucky to kill most of the squads at one counter or other 2 guys are noobs.

Can you explain how do you counter it as SM or CSM or Eldar if someone decided to use Ranger spam before the start of the game? :?


you go for your typical anti eldar build which is 1 ac tic raptors csm t2, when you see the second ranger, you adjust this build to 2x ac tics noisemarines with raptors and then you rush his power farm because rangers absolutely cannot hold it off, t2 you transition into a bc and you baserape him
same thing with sm, rush his powerfarm with a build that has a strong field presence
source: used to spam 10x rangers against noobs, anyone decent insta countered it
PianoMan
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Re: Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

Postby PianoMan » Mon 17 Aug, 2020 11:27 am

honestly tho, if you play in 3v3 lobbies, you have no right to complain about anything balance wise, the quality of these games makes me think i am playing against people that are nodding off on painkillers
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Schepp himself
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Re: Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

Postby Schepp himself » Mon 17 Aug, 2020 11:33 am

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:[Quality Post]


Seriously. What a quality post from Piano. You clearly put more thought and time in your answer than the OP. Redirect anyone to this thread if they complain about the tocix community.

@OP: It helps to provide a replay of the mentioned game. That way there is a chance that people can watch it and evaluate if it is indeed "impossible" to counter.

Greets
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Greets schep himself thingy
PianoMan
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Re: Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

Postby PianoMan » Mon 17 Aug, 2020 11:45 am

Schepp himself wrote:
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:[Quality Post]


Seriously. What a quality post from Piano. You clearly put more thought and time in your answer than the OP. Redirect anyone to this thread if they complain about the tocix community.

@OP: It helps to provide a replay of the mentioned game. That way there is a chance that people can watch it and evaluate if it is indeed "impossible" to counter.

Greets
Schepp himself

hey i might be toxic but i'm always right so it cancels out ok
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Torpid
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Re: Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

Postby Torpid » Mon 17 Aug, 2020 1:10 pm

If anything though in 3v3 it should be easier to counter the ranger spam because you can build around it... You can do as piano said going for a heavy t1 pressure gen bash ting, or one player can get energy shields making the rangers worthless, or one can spam melee with a sigil of the rift CS etc etc... Or go stormshield FC... EZ
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Solo.Wing
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Re: Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

Postby Solo.Wing » Mon 17 Aug, 2020 4:27 pm

Torpid wrote:If anything though in 3v3 it should be easier to counter the ranger spam because you can build around it... You can do as piano said going for a heavy t1 pressure gen bash ting, or one player can get energy shields making the rangers worthless, or one can spam melee with a sigil of the rift CS etc etc... Or go stormshield FC... EZ

PianoMan wrote:
Solo.Wing wrote:
PianoMan wrote:no, multiple rangers is one of the worst builds you can ever go for and probably the most easy cheese build to counter, learn how to play against it instead of complaining

Dude, your statement may validate on 1v1 or 2v2, but 3v3 with similar skills is almost impossible to deal with unless you are freaking lucky to kill most of the squads at one counter or other 2 guys are noobs.

Can you explain how do you counter it as SM or CSM or Eldar if someone decided to use Ranger spam before the start of the game? :?


you go for your typical anti eldar build which is 1 ac tic raptors csm t2, when you see the second ranger, you adjust this build to 2x ac tics noisemarines with raptors and then you rush his power farm because rangers absolutely cannot hold it off, t2 you transition into a bc and you baserape him
same thing with sm, rush his powerfarm with a build that has a strong field presence
source: used to spam 10x rangers against noobs, anyone decent insta countered it


Well, it's easy to say. I encountered Ranger spammers 5~6 times during my playtime and they always won.

Stacked Ranger squads can easily take out energy shields and still gave tons of damage to defensive buffed units. They can retire important inf squads or commanders with one or two volleys and the rest of them is a cake for their teammates. The melee units will also have to be content with making retreat one or two of the Ranger squads in return for sacrificing their one or two models. If such damage continues to accumulate, it becomes a game in which you can only do nothing and lose.

It's not funny to against nor play with. I still think Ranger spam should be prevented from the beginning.

Any way, here is a replay. It's 3E vs 3SM

http://www.mediafire.com/file/9e47arpf6u7uc9p/file
PianoMan
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Re: Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

Postby PianoMan » Mon 17 Aug, 2020 5:10 pm

rangers do not do damage to energy shields
focus on always moving and not being a passive player and you'll get over your ranger hate quickly
RedReVenge
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Re: Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

Postby RedReVenge » Mon 17 Aug, 2020 8:54 pm

Solo.Wing wrote:
Torpid wrote:If anything though in 3v3 it should be easier to counter the ranger spam because you can build around it... You can do as piano said going for a heavy t1 pressure gen bash ting, or one player can get energy shields making the rangers worthless, or one can spam melee with a sigil of the rift CS etc etc... Or go stormshield FC... EZ

PianoMan wrote:
Solo.Wing wrote:Dude, your statement may validate on 1v1 or 2v2, but 3v3 with similar skills is almost impossible to deal with unless you are freaking lucky to kill most of the squads at one counter or other 2 guys are noobs.

Can you explain how do you counter it as SM or CSM or Eldar if someone decided to use Ranger spam before the start of the game? :?


you go for your typical anti eldar build which is 1 ac tic raptors csm t2, when you see the second ranger, you adjust this build to 2x ac tics noisemarines with raptors and then you rush his power farm because rangers absolutely cannot hold it off, t2 you transition into a bc and you baserape him
same thing with sm, rush his powerfarm with a build that has a strong field presence
source: used to spam 10x rangers against noobs, anyone decent insta countered it


Well, it's easy to say. I encountered Ranger spammers 5~6 times during my playtime and they always won.

Stacked Ranger squads can easily take out energy shields and still gave tons of damage to defensive buffed units. They can retire important inf squads or commanders with one or two volleys and the rest of them is a cake for their teammates. The melee units will also have to be content with making retreat one or two of the Ranger squads in return for sacrificing their one or two models. If such damage continues to accumulate, it becomes a game in which you can only do nothing and lose.

It's not funny to against nor play with. I still think Ranger spam should be prevented from the beginning.

Any way, here is a replay. It's 3E vs 3SM

http://www.mediafire.com/file/9e47arpf6u7uc9p/file


Didn't know I would become so famous...

As others echoed above me, this strategy is far harder to use against higher level players. The problem was their unit compositions. Look at what they built. Traditional "noob" build of 2 TAC into 1 DEV. Dev is the worst possible unit to get vs 1 ranger and they got them vs 4!!

The moment they see a ranger, they need to be thinking about either 1) getting asm, or 2) going tier 2 and getting a light vehicle (rhino).
Inekura
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Re: Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

Postby Inekura » Mon 17 Aug, 2020 10:31 pm

Ranger spam is annoying if anything.
Is it op? Hell no.
If they can spend 40 (or45 I forgot) power x4-5x and you are not t2 then they could beat you with anything as you are clearly getting outplayed.
Rangers without upgrade are borderline useless.
As piano said they don't dmg gens or shields.
In t1 use shotblockers and fast tech.
GG enemy spent 170-200 power on rangers alone who can't do shit vs vehicles
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Impregnable
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Re: Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

Postby Impregnable » Tue 18 Aug, 2020 4:58 am

Can take this approach as well.

Retail Ranger raw damage per hit: 160
Cost 300 Req / 30 Power
Comes with Kinetic Pulse by default
55 Req / 15 Power Pathfinder Gear upgrade provides below.
Infiltration, Fleet of Foot and Holo Field

Elite Ranger raw damage per hit: 60
Cost 230 Req / 20 Power
50 Req / 20 Power Pathfinder Gear upgrade provides below.
Raw damage per hit increase to 80, Kinetic Pulse AND
Infiltration, Fleet of Foot and Holo Field

Retail
1 raw damage = 1.88 Req / 0.19 Power
Elite
No upgrade
1 raw damage = 3.83 Req / 0.33 Power
Pathfinder
1 raw damage = 3.5 Req / 0.5 Power
- As can be seen above, retail rangers despite being slightly more expensive had to only spend about half less cost per 1 raw damage they get. This is excluding the fact that retail rangers come with Kinetic Pulse by default which widens the resource spent gap further.
Retail vs Elite no upgrade: Retail spend 1.95 Req and 0.14 power LESS per 1 raw damage gotten.
Retail vs Elite Pathfinder: Retail spend 1.62 Req and 0.31 power LESS per 1 raw damage gotten.

Elite no upgrade ranger x 10: 600 raw damage
Spend 2300 Req / 200 Power for 10 Squads

Elite Pathfinder gear: 600 raw damage divided by 80 = 8 squad(Rounded up from 7.5)
Spend 2240 Req / 320 Power

Retail: 600 raw damage divided by 160 = 4 Squad(Rounded up from 3.75)
Spend 1200 Req / 120 Power
- In order for Retail rangers to equal or go over the firepower of 10 Elite rangers with no upgrades, they just need 4 squads and spend way less.

Conclusion
- Elite has mitigated ranger spam in team games by a huge margin compared to Retail by making it hugely inefficient cost wise. This should be evident in above analysis.
- If you are having trouble of an opponent spending 2300 Req and 200 Power, then this is a L2P issue like everyone else is saying.
- If the opponent is spending that much resources in T1, one of your teammate should spend the same amount of resource to mitigate it while others tech up. Also, never ever go for 3 same factions if you don't have a special plan.
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PianoMan
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Re: Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

Postby PianoMan » Tue 18 Aug, 2020 8:33 am

redrevenge throwing you under the bus saying you buy 2 tacs into devs against eldar, that build instantly loses you the game, you should be happy they go for rangers and not for shurikens which would instantly baselock you
also, if you put a detection unit into a razorback, they'll still detect :xPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
Inekura
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Re: Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

Postby Inekura » Tue 18 Aug, 2020 1:15 pm

He just said, that you showed that it was his mistake, by telling us what he built..
RedReVenge
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Re: Limit creation of the Eldar Ranger squad

Postby RedReVenge » Tue 18 Aug, 2020 4:39 pm

Inekura wrote:He just said, that you showed that it was his mistake, by telling us what he built..


I appreciate the translation. There was be a language barrier.

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