2.2 preview

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

against multiple setup teams or setup teams backed up with ranged firepower or shoota spams and such, i'd definitely say spotters are better.

With a catachan build you can actually kill your opponents squads in your engagements you can't really do that in t1 with an Arty spotter build, other than forcing them off.

The Catachan are straight up muscle for your army tanking damage pealing models off retreating squads or even wiping them if you're lucky, with many supporting and offensive abilities, the Arty is just a support / "spell caster", they need this buff to properly justify their role.

[Torpid]

against multiple setup teams or setup teams backed up with ranged firepower or shoota spams and such, i'd definitely say spotters are better.

With a catachan build you can actually kill your opponents squads in your engagements you can't really do that in t1 with an Arty spotter build, other than forcing them off.

Yes catachans have more killing power than spotters, and yes they are more useful generally because of the anti-jump troop support they offer (which otherwise IG have no counter to in t1), not to mention their utility, which includes being a soft suppression counter.

However, against double set-up teams catachans will do nothing. even against one the team will just move back a bit after being 'ol reliabled and re-set up, so you need a follow up anyway, and in fact you need a bigger follow up than you do with spotters since spotters immobilise a team for a while via smoke (or make them waste time tearing down), and the mortar when positioned slightly behind a team can be used to push them towards you, making the follow up damage much easier to execute. Also catachans do nothing to deal with a barbed strangler warrior brood, in that case you should always get spotters (even against LA since they will detect next patch -> )

Also one thing to note is how much better spotter builds scale than catachan builds. Firstly the incendiary shell is amazing. It has fantastic damage and when combined with manticores/inquisitor abilities/sentinel missles etc, you can really make a enemy dance around in fire and wipe squads on retreat. Spotters also use their abilities and therefore contribute to battle from afar, without bleeding at all. Catachans are the complete opposite. Now say what you will about the way catachans bleed, they nonetheless can't contribute in battle without getting close to the enemy due to their poor range. They are very easily focused down due to their inf armour and low hp, and then in t2 they get beat in melee easily due to them having such a high model count and so special attacks butcher them, just like AOE. I.E. they bleed you, and have more expensive upgrades, and have more upkeep.

I'm talking here from a 1v1 perspective. Against a single suppression unit or any build that will implement jump troops catachans are the better choice. Spotters are the better choice vs eldar and BSWB tyranid builds. Spotters are cheap and get their job done, buffing their damage would make them far too versatile and would be fairly pointless considering their price/hp/role as it is.

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

I'm talking about fixing their firing animation so they shoot properly with the weapon they're handling and if that in turn could raise their dps slightly that would also be great, but I just want them to scale better into the IG other than their abilities, their ranged attack should at least inflict some damage, and contribute more to a fire fight, it's just 3 guardsmen with las guns at the moment. It's not even worth it trying to make them shoot at your enemy.
It would not make them too versatile being able to contribute in a fire fight.

[Torpid]

Yes it would, they are good enough as it without having any serious dps. IG get more than enough dps atm, if spotters had AK stormtrooper dps in t2 that would be insane, even in t3 kasrkin dps is pretty good considering how cheap the unit is. They function really well for their price at the moment. They are just a rather niche unit, but just because they are niche doesn't mean they need buffing. Noise marines don't contribute much to a fight vs SM, except for the occasional cacophony to annoy leaders/asm. Therefore NM need a buff.

Fixing the animations is fine, but even something as seemingly negligible as buffing the squad's damage threefold really affects the way the game plays out and I don't think it would be a good idea based on how cost effective the squad is atm.

[Dark Riku]

Well I was gonna reply. But Torpid said everything already.
+1 to Torpid.

[Helios]

Does any one know of a replay where there is some really GOOD spotter usage? I have yet to see any impressive micro or use of them as of yet. Yeah I'm sure us IG players are bit hesitant to use them since we're used to our beefy catachans but I want to watch some one really make the most of them.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

tbh, you're not going to get much good micro out of spotters; apart from keeping them in the back and using their abilities they're very hands off.

[Helios]

tbh, you're not going to get much good micro out of spotters; apart from keeping them in the back and using their abilities they're very hands off.

It's not just the micro. I said I want to see some one make the MOST out of them as well. As in a replay where they were very useful in engagements, how to best position them, etc. A game where they were you could say "it just won that fight"

[Kvek]

There is a faction war nids vs IG where all ig players bought spotters (too lazy to find it for u)

[FiSH]

There may be replays where spotters are used better, but this game has 2 spotters used alongside catachans, pretty interesting game. Fear (PC) vs Kalzi4 (LG)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqxOXibz1ME

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

Look, I'm not talking about giving them hotshot dps stats or hellgun dps stats from the default out-of-the-base, I'm talking about changing their firing animation so instead of shooting like 3 guardsmen they shoot like equal to 3 of the GK Inquisitorial Storm troopers with that basic "las gun" tracer that only does minimal damage, I just want them to shoot properly since they actually have hellgun weapon models.

It's like if a Space marine were firing a Flamer like a Bolter or the other way around, that wouldn't look very good either.

[Torpid]

Look, I'm not talking about giving them hotshot dps stats or hellgun dps stats from the default out-of-the-base, I'm talking about changing their firing animation so instead of shooting like 3 guardsmen they shoot like equal to 3 of the GK Inquisitorial Storm troopers with that basic "las gun" tracer that only does minimal damage, I just want them to shoot properly since they actually have hellgun weapon models.

It's like if a Space marine were firing a Flamer like a Bolter or the other way around, that wouldn't look very good either.

Alright, give them hellguns then but keep them with the damage of guardsmen, basically like the LGs retinue. Just no buffs please.

[Lulgrim]

They'll fire faster with the hotshot/hellgun firing animation thus raising their dps

No they won't... It's just an animation. I can make them shoot 1 round every two hours with burst animation or play a melee punch animation while firing 2000 bombs around the map... The firing rate/dps is strictly a balance thing.

[Red Beard]

Hello Lulgrim. Would it be possible to do a mark of nurgle upgrade for the chaos dreadnought?
I had the idea that it keeps the autocannon it starts with but it leaves decay with each shot

[Lulgrim]

Is it possible? Yes.
Is it needed? Talk to Caeltos.

[Torpid]

Is it possible? Yes.
Is it needed? Talk to Caeltos.

Were Grey Knights needed?

[Kvek]

No-pe

[Caeltos]

As a part of the continuation of the development of the modification, and an "Indirect-expansion", yes. They were the race that was chosen, and implemented. Alot of you people haven't been around since the origins of the modification. It adds more flavor & gameplay, and options to play around with.

I also don't think you quite understand the burden of implementations, if you want me to add something, it's far more likely I'll listen if it's constructive and the thought process behind is brought up, so you can get some deeper insight to the whole shaningans. I also don't want to just add in an simple "exclusive" upgrade implementation, without giving some thought & love to the other races in combination to it. Those kind of implementations can really get really get severe backlash in terms of the response to it, eventho if it's a justified uprade implementation. What I'm talking about, is the community backlash.

Seriously, I didn't expect much from the origins of the modification, but it's sprung to life on it's own. It was originally just to experiment with balance modifications in the get go, but as things progressed with retail & alike, I wanted to deviate and make this able to stand on it's own. And as the community grows, so does the complaints & negativity that is sometimes, uncalled for- way to hasty, and the negativity can really get to you. Espicially if it's unelaborate, and consecutive and sometimes, from the same people. And my passion to continue with this, is slowly, but surely dimnishing when the same bunch of people brings up things that have been duly noted.

We're not a massive crew that is working on the modification. Both Lulgrim & I devote alot of our spare time to make things work, and when there's very little token of appriciation, I don't really give two shits what people want, or think. I spend close to a year getting the GK implementations in term of design & units, tier layouts, pricing and what-have-you, with alot of help from Lulgrim done, and when there's no sense of appriciation to the commitment I made to just getting them in, it really is fucking disrespectful. Considering I don't get anything out of this.

You may not like the faction, that's fine. But don't go saying "They weren't needed". That just pisses me right the hell off.

[Red Beard]

So is the mark of nurgle dreadnought needed caeltos?

[Caeltos]

Since I don't understand it's functionality, or intentions behind it's suggested implementation, no. I don't think it's needed.

Like I said, it's not very elaborate. See the Slaanesh Commander thread for a pretty detailed write-up that has put alot thought & details behind it. It makes it more legitimate and acceptable to implement, and you can work on those boundaries and it's implementations will be smoother.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

So is the mark of nurgle dreadnought needed caeltos?

I will not complain if a Mark of Nurgle or any other mark is added to any unit/squad. Hell, if it were up to me I would add all the Marks to any squad/units in the Chaos rooster.

The problem isn't if is needed the Mark of Nurgle Dreadnought. The problem is find him an adequate role, adequate stadistics, adequate abilities (if needed)... And then look if the unit breaks any matchup balance.

[Red Beard]

So is the mark of nurgle dreadnought needed caeltos?

I will not complain if a Mark of Nurgle or any other mark is added to any unit/squad. Hell, if it were up to me I would add all the Marks to any squad/units in the Chaos rooster.

The problem isn't if is needed the Mark of Nurgle Dreadnought. The problem is find him an adequate role, adequate stadistics, adequate abilities (if needed)... And then look if the unit breaks any matchup balance.

Hmm true true.

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

They'll fire faster with the hotshot/hellgun firing animation thus raising their dps

No they won't... It's just an animation. I can make them shoot 1 round every two hours with burst animation or play a melee punch animation while firing 2000 bombs around the map... The firing rate/dps is strictly a balance thing.

Okay, I didn't know that... I'm not a modder.

But ultimately I don't really care if their damage is buffed or not I just don't want to look at that glitching power cable, heck you could just give them regular las guns so they'd look like the Vox caster on the Lord General's retinue and it would make me happy.
Right animation for the weapon they're caring so the animation is in synchronization with the model is all that I'm asking for.

To Caeltos: I've always thought the Grey Knights were an awesome addition to your mod, making the mod stand out more on it's own and I can imagine the work you must have put into it, me myself have been in the modding community for quite a few years now, (without actually doing any modding myself though) I've been following other mods and seen how long it takes to produce quality assets with only a limited team working in your spare time, I appreciate your continued work on this great project and hope the community can stay strong for many years to come.

[Red Beard]

I would also like to query about the fact that chaos terminators have 3750HP. Why can't they start off with 4500HP like the Regular Space Marine Terminators? I know they get more Hp when u give them the claws but in my opinion they should start off with 4500HP like the other terminators.

[FiSH]

@R3D B34RD
please use the balance discussion forums for these posts. one main reason for that by the way is because the chaos terminators can be supported with worship/shrine plays.

[Red Beard]

@R3D B34RD
please use the balance discussion forums for these posts. one main reason for that by the way is because the chaos terminators can be supported with worship/shrine plays.

Ok thanks for reply

[Sneery_Thug]

As a part of the continuation of the development of the modification, and an "Indirect-expansion", yes. They were the race that was chosen, and implemented. Alot of you people haven't been around since the origins of the modification. It adds more flavor & gameplay, and options to play around with.

I also don't think you quite understand the burden of implementations, if you want me to add something, it's far more likely I'll listen if it's constructive and the thought process behind is brought up, so you can get some deeper insight to the whole shaningans. I also don't want to just add in an simple "exclusive" upgrade implementation, without giving some thought & love to the other races in combination to it. Those kind of implementations can really get really get severe backlash in terms of the response to it, eventho if it's a justified uprade implementation. What I'm talking about, is the community backlash.

Seriously, I didn't expect much from the origins of the modification, but it's sprung to life on it's own. It was originally just to experiment with balance modifications in the get go, but as things progressed with retail & alike, I wanted to deviate and make this able to stand on it's own. And as the community grows, so does the complaints & negativity that is sometimes, uncalled for- way to hasty, and the negativity can really get to you. Espicially if it's unelaborate, and consecutive and sometimes, from the same people. And my passion to continue with this, is slowly, but surely dimnishing when the same bunch of people brings up things that have been duly noted.

We're not a massive crew that is working on the modification. Both Lulgrim & I devote alot of our spare time to make things work, and when there's very little token of appriciation, I don't really give two shits what people want, or think. I spend close to a year getting the GK implementations in term of design & units, tier layouts, pricing and what-have-you, with alot of help from Lulgrim done, and when there's no sense of appriciation to the commitment I made to just getting them in, it really is fucking disrespectful. Considering I don't get anything out of this.

You may not like the faction, that's fine. But don't go saying "They weren't needed". That just pisses me right the hell off.

Grey Knights are needed. They bring some more versatility to the game itself - this attracts new players, since many of them want to see Gk like to play this race (including me.) And considering DoW2 is rather an old game, we do need things to attract new people.

And their visual design is as good as of the rest of the races.

[Torpid]

Grey Knights are needed. They bring some more versatility to the game itself - this attracts new players, since many of them want to see Gk like to play this race (including me.) And considering DoW2 is rather an old game, we do need things to attract new people.

And their visual design is as good as of the rest of the races.

I fear you misunderstand the meaning of 'needed/necessary'. Chaos and Imperial guard weren't needed

[Vapor]

Grey Knights are needed. They bring some more versatility to the game itself - this attracts new players, since many of them want to see Gk like to play this race (including me.) And considering DoW2 is rather an old game, we do need things to attract new people.

And their visual design is as good as of the rest of the races.

I fear you misunderstand the meaning of 'needed/necessary'. Chaos and Imperial guard weren't needed

Game design decisions aren't made on a "needed/necessary" basis, it's more like, does this improve the state of the game or not? One could argue that adding GK hurts competitive balance but since they aren't exactly OP in 1v1s, I don't think that's a concern. Variety is always good

[Batpimp]

As a part of the continuation of the development of the modification, and an "Indirect-expansion", yes. They were the race that was chosen, and implemented. Alot of you people haven't been around since the origins of the modification. It adds more flavor & gameplay, and options to play around with.

I also don't think you quite understand the burden of implementations, if you want me to add something, it's far more likely I'll listen if it's constructive and the thought process behind is brought up, so you can get some deeper insight to the whole shaningans. I also don't want to just add in an simple "exclusive" upgrade implementation, without giving some thought & love to the other races in combination to it. Those kind of implementations can really get really get severe backlash in terms of the response to it, eventho if it's a justified uprade implementation. What I'm talking about, is the community backlash.

Seriously, I didn't expect much from the origins of the modification, but it's sprung to life on it's own. It was originally just to experiment with balance modifications in the get go, but as things progressed with retail & alike, I wanted to deviate and make this able to stand on it's own. And as the community grows, so does the complaints & negativity that is sometimes, uncalled for- way to hasty, and the negativity can really get to you. Espicially if it's unelaborate, and consecutive and sometimes, from the same people. And my passion to continue with this, is slowly, but surely dimnishing when the same bunch of people brings up things that have been duly noted.

We're not a massive crew that is working on the modification. Both Lulgrim & I devote alot of our spare time to make things work, and when there's very little token of appriciation, I don't really give two shits what people want, or think. I spend close to a year getting the GK implementations in term of design & units, tier layouts, pricing and what-have-you, with alot of help from Lulgrim done, and when there's no sense of appriciation to the commitment I made to just getting them in, it really is fucking disrespectful. Considering I don't get anything out of this.

You may not like the faction, that's fine. But don't go saying "They weren't needed". That just pisses me right the hell off.

Hey there its BBWG. I do not post much and in fact I made an account just to reply to this. I want to sincerely thank you for doing what your doing with the mod. This is probably gonna come across as kissing your ass but I truly do appreciate the work you guys put into the mod. I especially appreciate your ability to logically and fairly asses and re asses all units, their abilities, commanders items/abilities, with what I perceive as, un biased thourough examination of the game. I have spent countless hours watching replays on youtube and talking to my brother VroomVroom about a match i saw or a texting him frantically when a new patch is out to play. Anyhow for real guys thanks for what you do for I am sure I do not know how much time you all put into this for all of us to enjoy just to hear people complain.