Chaos Librarian wrote:Caeltos wrote: but still it costs 200/50 is t3 and can be countered by killing the sorceror.
It does not cost 200/50 anymore.
Here are some things I'd like people to consider before jumping on the oddly-enough "bandwagon" of "not as ez to cheese-kill" high-value unit (Which isn't that fun of a mechanic to begin with) change.
* I'll be somewhat simplistic in this, so bare with me"
Lessened duration - Faster to get control of your Sorcerer to do as he please again. Considering that the duration was previously ~16s. Means that he can now have +6 seconds more up-time to do something else, be that Doombolt/Teleport/InsertHavoc. This is a good thing as well, as it's somewhat ":(" that you can't utilize the subjugated target as longer. It's a mix-bag, but it has it's pros & cons. <-- Keeping in mind, it's more fun to get control of your units again, so it's a nice thing for the opposition to have less frustration moments.
Invulnerable Subjugated targets - You can now effectively use lower-valued targets that can do as they please. Think of target such as set-up teams in general, Wraithguards/Banshees and never lose efficiency in return, since they are invulnerable. Previously, they were able to be focused-down a tad (Hopefully not resulting in a kill tho, but havocs towards-late game has a habbit of causing some friendly fire damage) and misc. details specifics. This means you can maximize the damage potency and pressure in return as well, whereas previously it would put you down abit if the subjugated targets took model losses (which results in combat effiency decline) -> let alone, the model reinforcement has been completely somewhat evaporated from the subjugation duration effect. So that's a thing for the opposition.
There are good/bad things that come from this, but it's not a direct-nerf. You'll just have to look at the pros/cons and make a verdict out of it. But I would definately prefer the term "Tweak", rather than "Nerf", since honestly, it was just cheesy as hell to just "insta-nuke/kill" high-valued target with little to no effort.
It's a frustrating game-mechanic that has a significant game-dictation. If anything, it'll allow for more strategical and experimental units to mind-control. As always however, it'll prove to be highly effective if done propertly, it just won't be that much of an cheese-element tied to anymore. Which if you ask me, is a good thing.
Caeltos, Did you read my first response? You seem to be repeating what you said before. The only thing different about this post compared to your previous post is that you're complaining even more about sub-abyssing.
Let me reiterate from my last post. Hardly any player will actually dps down fragile units that have been subjugated. Let's say I subjugated banshees. First off, I wouldn't subjugate banshees unless I see them close enough to other eldar squads so that I can cause instant retreat/severe model losses without giving my opponent a chance to detect the sorc and focus him down. Secondly, let's suppose that I, for some strange reason, decide to subjugate a banshee squad that's away from the main eldar army and try to run it in to the eldar army. If the eldar player is foolish enough to actually focus down banshees, I'll just let them soak up the damage for a few seconds then fleet them back into the middle of my army, hopefully scoring a wipe on the banshee squad. And when it comes to subjugated termies/seer councils/nobs, I don't think friendly fire is or has ever been an issue. I REPEAT. Good players will opt to stun/knockback/suppress their subjugated squad to keep them harmless during subjugation instead of dpsing it down, so invulnerability on the subjugated squad does not help sorc players AT ALL.
Also, why in Tzentch's name would you ever want to subjugate a set-up squad? First off, since set-up squads are usually sitting in the back supporting the rest of the army, chances of the sorc actually getting up that close and subjugating without getting killed off instantly is close to zero. Secondly, why would you not just use warp rift into 2 x ac tics? Or even just teleport on to the set-up squad?
Let's also do some math here, shall we? Empyreal abyss takes 5 seconds to come out and lasts a total of 15 seconds and subjugation lasts 10 seconds. So assuming that you can keep the subjugated squad inside the inner circle of radius 5, which isn't always possible especially if enemy units are around and the subjugated squad wants to melee them, you have about 5 seconds for the abyss to rape the subjugated squad. Now, as Ace pointed out earlier, you can try to get around this problem by putting down the abyss before subjugating, but I hardly need to point out the enormous risk associated with this move. You can very likely end up wasting 500 red for nothing. Anyways, the inner circle does 200 heavy melee dps. We have 2 important cases to consider:
(1) Normal Terminators: 1500 hp each model. 5 x 200 = 1000 < 1500. So you can't just "click and instawipe" termies. It's not that simple. I suppose you could use chains of torment right after subjugation is over to keep the termies in place for full 15 seconds of the abyss, but chains can be focus fired down pretty quickly, not to mention it's taking damage from the abyss itself which will most likely tear the chains down soon.
(2) Nobs: 650 hp each model, Nob of Nobs has 850 hp. But, nobs have melee resistance aura which reduces incoming melee damage by 40%. So we get 5 x 200 x 0.6 = 600 < 650 < 850. Once again, not a "click and instawipe." You have to damage the nobs before and make sure they are away from support (especially big shoota with nobs support). Furthermore, since nobs can retreat out as soon as subjugation is over, the chances of a sorc player wasting 500 red is non-negligible (and I've wasted it many times before).
Needless to say Assault Termies have more hp then terminators, so no need to discuss that case.
My point is, sub-abyssing is not just a "click and win." Please don't refer to it as some cheesy tactic a n00b can pull off and insta win every game. There's a non-negligible chance you might fuck it up and waste 500 red. Also, you're forgoing chaos termies (which require 350 red) for quite a long time if you go this route. It especially hurts vs. nobs since the alternative solution of getting lighting claw termies is very viable and is much less of a risk.
But, to be honest, I don't care that much. I always welcome a challenge of coming up with new ways to break this game, and I was getting bored of sub-abyssing anyways. Also as I said before, it's your game, you do whatever the fuck you want with it. But, I want you to know this is not a buff, nor is it a "tweak." It's a straight-up nerf, and a pretty big one at that, so I would like to see something to compensate for it.
Also, @ DJ Raffa, trust me, I've pulled off all those "unlikely" combos with subjugation before.
Not everything around Abyss revolves around Subjugating Nobs/Terminators. Sometimes even a standard-issued squad has as much, or more vital purpose to the players army composition. So I wouldn't exactly consider "Two very important cases" overshadowing the rest of all the units in the game. And we can't also always assume these units are the full health for the case, so it's kind of a moot to even bring it up. It's not like your just going to let high-value targets waddle around unscathed.
Secondly, just because your theorycrafted situation doesn't meet the demands of what I said, doesn't mean my scenario is unfeasible. Games fluxuate and never play out the same way. Players own preference of strategies will differentiate from one another, for an example, some people won't go with the 2x AC tic build, so there's the reason it's not a presentable option to "just warp rift in and kill them." There are so many multiple variables to consider here, and it's abit narrow-minded to just assume people will do "X and Y" to beat certain composition, since there are multiple units/builds let alone strategical approach that can be dealt with things.
Let-alone, not everyone will go with standard-cookie cutter builds, eventho it seems to be hard-habbit of shaking off. There are different ways to play it, and just because your dipping your feet in the water for the first and it's not very welcoming, doesn't mean it's good in another scenario. (Okay, that's an odd metaphor, but what I'm saying is, try different builds and different strategies to it, and find a working method for it. Just because it doesn't work the first time, doesn't mean it can be polished and refined to work for a specific strategy and build)
Much of that can be applied to Subjugation as well. The new change is meant to bolsten the units effiency in terms of raw-combat potency, and it does. It's just how some scenarios are going to pan out. Much like vehicles, and you subjugate a target that is capable of dealing with it. The vehicle will kite backwards, and fire on it. Resulting in a potential model loss inflication, which in return has two key-pros/cons
- Model loss , player A losses economy from reinf.
- Model loss, player B loses combat effiency from subjugated target.
Now, I think it's fair to say, that losing models is always a bad thing when it comes to fighting performance. You're not going to stay on the battlefield with a lonesome squad member, since generally, they do not have combat effiency. What if you had that extra-squad/member(s), then you might have taken a vital-target down, or caused more damage on your enemies.
The change in return does this;
- No Model losses, restricted/eliminated. Eases up economical stucture, however - might lose combat from the following;
- No Model losses; 100% combat effiency. Attacking kiting targets now has no real drawback on the subjugated targets combat effiency, since it will always be at the top. (Assuming they have max-squad size). Allows for more pressure potential and actual combat-utility useage. Even if no "vital"/terminator squads and such are present, the ability itself grows in it's effiency versus non terminator/nob/yada targets, since the targets are invulnerable for the duration.
I could really elaborate on this to the end of days, but how anyone percieve this as a direct-nerf, really doesn't grasp the concept of "tweaking". A direct nerf is something more simplistic as "Damage went down", as it has direct-implication of direct-combat effiency decline, or the polar opposite "Damage went up", both of these are clear indication of changes that either an improvement, or a reduced effinecy. And last of all, "Shotgun now deals more damage closer to the target, and less from afar", is percieved as a tweak, as it does abit of both. It improves, but worsen their range performance.
Much is similiar to the Subjugation when you really ham yourself into the variables of it. It is a
TWEAK and I don't see how I can furthermore elaborate on it to make you understand it. I would have almost thought it was a given by this time of age. Tweaking is a pivotal part of making things work. It's a word that is seldom used, and onfortunately enough, not everything has to revolve around "buff or nerf", I much prefer tweaks, which is something that the modification has gone through alot of. And I'm not neccasarily just talking about unit performance as whole, it's more matchup in some scenarios.
Now, I should have probably started off with this, but I don't aim to be offensive/rude in this response, but I just get abit annoyed over the word words "buff" or "nerf" on some occasions, when it's more of a direct-tweak that is being made, and of course, the Tyranid Leader thingiemajig, which I thought I explained myself, was more of an experimental thing. I was actually more in the mindset of nerfing Subjugation since it's an annoying mechanic in the game. I believe it actually has a direct-phrase that is commonly used within developers- but I cannot for the love of my life remember what it's called. Either way, the loss of control is generally not percieved as very positive thing, and Subjugation has abit of that effect, it's not really a fun mechanic. But I believe that it can be
tweaked to ensure it's "originality" remains truthful and the mechanic of it is improved.
As well with all things, as the ...
beta patch process goes, the patch will most likely undergo some more substantial changes. I'd like everyone to at least put their trust & faith in me, since well- you're still playing for now, and people seem to be enjoying it. I just aim towards not screwing it up, and if it ends up being screwed up, well- back to things that worked!
One thing I actually really wanted to make further improvements was wargears, but I've seen useage of pretty much well, all wargears to some degree, and they seem to be doing alright. I think the Lictor Alphas weapon might be a seemingly lackluster, but I think that's partially because I don't think people have skimmed through those changelogs just yet. Espicially for the DoT one.
and the TL;DR version;
Patch is a draft and NOT FINAL
Patch will most likely undergo some substantial changes
