Boss for balance lead

Generic non-balance topics.

Balance lead Me or Adila

Boss
7
20%
Adila
20
57%
Antandron
8
23%
 
Total votes: 35
PianoMan
Level 3
Posts: 404
Joined: Fri 30 Jun, 2017 12:40 pm

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby PianoMan » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 7:15 pm

Bestn00b wrote:
PianoMan wrote:
Sex - Murder - Art wrote:Pfft! boss is just a big cry baby who only cares about his opinion only. '' Bleeeeh! buff dis nerf dat. If u don t, den u ar 2 iq ''

I'm sorry, but I refuse to see a mod who is literally unable to use punction, because he is mentally ill. No, I'm not insulting boss, this is a true story. He already confessed it before.

And besides, Adila might be making some weird / stupid changes every patch, but at least we can argue and have an effect on the mod. Meanwhile, boss is just a fucking brick wall. Have you EVER seen boss changing his mind on anything? No, you did not.


you run around with names such as "indrid has foot fetish" "x player sucks dick" and you make no retards lobbies while being the single biggest retard this community has to offer, you don't call others a brick wall you go kys thx


Hmmm....biggest retard? You sure Piano? I thought you were biggest retard

sadly nobody's a bigger retard than the turk, he's like a rostam with even more brain damage and less skeel
User avatar
Sex - Murder - Art
Level 2
Posts: 106
Joined: Sun 21 Oct, 2018 10:25 am

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 7:34 pm

PianoMan wrote:you run around with names such as "indrid has foot fetish" "x player sucks dick" and you make no retards lobbies while being the single biggest retard this community has to offer, you don't call others a brick wall you go kys thx


It is a fucking joke to make people laugh. Everyone that has higher IQ then their shoe number knows that it is a joke, and has fun with it. And besides that, this has nothing to make me a brick wall.

cornholiocast wrote:
boss's post is generally true so I will only point of the stuff that I don't agree or make some additions to it.


Seems you agreed with his ideas a few days ago so it cant be all bad.?

Yeah Boss´s personality leaves somthing to be desired and ofcourse it counts but in the end what do people care about when playing a 1v1..? that the Lead mod is a Saint or that he did some good balance changes.? Personally i want that we the players have a bigger say in who runs the show and Boss needs to act differently if he wants the job but if he can do that.. i see no reason why he shouldent get the chance.


Because there is a difference between having good opinions and giving the key to a cry baby. boss is a very good player, also know the game better than most people. So him writing some good suggestions, and me supporting him are no surprises.

However, boss is also someone who is totally hopeless. He doesn't accept change, he doesn't care about other opinions, only cares about his thing and that's it. You are asking for democracy, but you are trying to give the keys to a dictator.

If he thinks that he is better than current mods, he can start his own mod and we will see how the public will choose to play with. It's a win win. boss will fail to be a decent leader and make a horrible mod, and our Elite mod will be free from him and his disciples.
There are many ways to say the right thing, and I choose the worst way to say it.
PianoMan
Level 3
Posts: 404
Joined: Fri 30 Jun, 2017 12:40 pm

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby PianoMan » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 7:42 pm

you sure must have a very high iq to come up with such jokes
retard turk 1v1 bo5
User avatar
boss
Level 3
Posts: 497
Joined: Mon 22 Aug, 2016 11:48 pm

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby boss » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 8:06 pm

Broodwich wrote:While i'm not sure about all this drama, I do support more openness about what is going on. We'll hear nothing for 6 months then a changelog with a bunch of WTF gets dropped on the forums, often without an explanation for said changes.

I think a bit of competition for the role is healthy. Maybe if everyone stops calling each other poopheads this could be a serious discussion

And for fuck's sake boss, start talking like a normal human. You're not winning any votes with that


Ok ok I try more and be less insulting at the same time so far I done well not called anyone retard yet..

Also can this not turned into shit talking posts pls this was for a new change and new ways on improving stuff for this mod.
Forums great more stuff to talk about.
User avatar
cornholiocast
Level 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon 27 May, 2019 3:53 pm

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby cornholiocast » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 8:13 pm

Because there is a difference between having good opinions and giving the key to a cry baby. boss is a very good player, also know the game better than most people. So him writing some good suggestions, and me supporting him are no surprises.

However, boss is also someone who is totally hopeless. He doesn't accept change, he doesn't care about other opinions, only cares about his thing and that's it. You are asking for democracy, but you are trying to give the keys to a dictator.

If he thinks that he is better than current mods, he can start his own mod and we will see how the public will choose to play with. It's a win win. boss will fail to be a decent leader and make a horrible mod, and our Elite mod will be free from him and his disciples.


Those keys can be taken away very quickly if abused.. that is also a part a democracy. Being lead mod dosent mean you own the mod its mostly about directing balance and as far as i know Atlas is and always will be the true Kim Jong un of this game.

Like i said Boss should start improving his Social skills and behaviour but if he can do that.. well give him a chance... and tbh i dont think i ever heard of Boss having any disciples.. unless you mean somthing like this.

Image
User avatar
Impregnable
Level 4
Posts: 875
Joined: Tue 02 Apr, 2013 2:58 pm
Location: SEGMENTUM TEMPESTUS

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby Impregnable » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 8:17 pm

- Ignoring boss's offensive writing. What he wants is as follows.
Demands
1. Put patch notes on forums and fight over it like old days.(Demand of transparency in how mod is developed)
- Reasonable demand that majority would support.

2. Adila was not made balance lead by public opinion so should hear what the community got to say about who they want to be balance lead.
- Reasonable demand but the position has to be fought over with words and logic not insults.
- This leads to bottom argument.

Why boss should be balance lead according to his argument
- Balance lead should be someone who can like Caeltos
1) Listen to ideas
2) While adding his own ideas(Vision)
- He argues that Adila do not qualify in both criteria while he fits both.
- Firstly, he should write his vision down on forums in detail like he demands for others. Also, if Caeltos is his role model, he should act like him. Below are things he missed about Caeltos and the disparity I mention below should be filled if he wants to be the balance lead.

What should boss do if he wants to be the balance lead
1/ Caeltos used punctuation right
- What is the point of a balance patch notes if people cannot understand the logic behind it by such petty and very basic mistakes?
- His recent patch notes showed he can keep punctuation right if he cares for it. He should keep that trend if he wants to be balance lead.
2/ Caeltos did not insult people
- Whether he agreed on a person's opinion or not, no matter how wrong the opinion may be in his view, he did not insult or belittle other people.
- A balance lead is the face of this mod and represent its image. If the leader belittles or insult others whenever they disagree, others in the community are also depicted in such arrogant image as well.
- This also goes against the principal of listening to other people's idea. When the balance lead is acting like that, others would not post their opinions on forum from fear of being insulted.
2.1) Which kind of balance lead is more ideal?
- Someone who just because others disagree, belittle and not explain. Can conveniently refute any opinion that is different from the lead by saying I know game better than you so shut up.
OR
- Someone who refute arguments step by step with logic and spend energy and time to write them down carefully.

- This question leads to the most important factor boss lack as a balance lead candidate compared to Caeltos as stated below.

3/ Caeltos was ready to spend his time and energy to write and talk
- Before elite forum was set up, there was a private homepage where Caeltos posted his ideas and download link for elite in its early days. There, he would talk for months even for arguing over certain change he made to the elite mod.
- He was not afraid to spend his time and energy to write and talk for months or even over an year. If boss truly wants to be the balance lead, he should not be afraid to talk about his ideas openly and extensively for months no matter how long it takes.
- Just like he demands, he should follow his own words and post everything on forums and should be ready to talk over it for months. What he needs to write down are below.
3.1) What are match ups that no one can win?'
- At least, should write down how match up proceeds in words and what parts of it are in what way bad.
- Balance discussion in other RTS games even goes down to at what point in what match up how much resource each side have and lost. If he truly, cares for elite mod, he should do like that too.
- Replays should be given and he should point out to parts of replays certain things he mentioned happen.
3.2) Writing down his vision
- Whether it be accepted or not, he should really write this down and argue over it like Caeltos did if he claims he has vision.
- He should start with each faction and how he envisions each should be in future balance in very detailed way.

Other boss' arguments that needs to be looked at
- boss says Cealtos was an ideal balance lead but there are a lot of things Caeltos do not agree with what boss proposes
1/ The common trend that can be found in his argument is don't stir up meta to change the meta.
- However, this is a problematic point of view considering how Elite has been developed so far.
- According to that argument, some of the new units should not have been added to each faction by Caeltos. There were absolutely no reason for units like Phobos, Whirlwind, Chosen Plague Marines and Neurothropes which has probably zero impact on solving retail match up issues in 1v1 to be added to Elite.
- Also, Caeltos' vision did include stirring up the meta to change the meta. If balance is the only problem, making available builds diverse by making changes and adding new units should not be done. Balancing is way easier if viable builds and units are limited to a few combinations only. However, Caeltos clearly did seek out to stir up meta for more diverse builds and change of a faction's play style.
- viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2354 -> In this thread, he talks about his idea on how to make Eldar to more mobile faction as opposed to what Eldar became by the end of retribution into more of a set up and defend oriented faction using shuriken, wraith guard and d cannons. This is clearly stirring up of the meta using changes without balancing needs. Balance can be struck while allowing Eldar to remain as a set up oriented faction like in retribution but Caeltos had his vision on Eldar and changed Wraith Guards and D cannons like how we know now.
- In this sense, Caeltos' vision clearly includes stirring up meta for more diversity and making factions fit his ideals.
2/ Don't add new stuff when we don't have current factions not balanced
- According to this argument, nothing new can be added. Grey Knights certainly could not have been added back in early days of elite without so much of assets it has now. Balance is always in fluid state of not being totally perfect. Thus, waiting current things to be balanced before adding new things is an impossible goal.
- Also, as I have argued above, new units to each faction we have cannot be added based on this argument. If we are to follow that logic, Elite mod should have first tried balancing using only retail units and then add new stuff years later. Caeltos certainly did not see it this way.

Adila's achievements
- Not agreeing on how Adila balance things is one thing but trying to erase what he has achieved apart from balancing is completely another. Even if we change the balance lead, Adila's achievements should not be removed.
1/ League
- Like can be seen in that thread by adeptus viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6148, league is a good system that should be continued.
1) It provides stats for balancing including replay evidences
2) Makes high skill players constantly engaged for developing of new strategies
3) Provides cycle of Balance Patch -> League -> Feedback -> Balance Patch
2/ Gathering the mod team together
- Ever since Caeltos left, we constantly bled people who can model new units and abilities. Adila has spent his time and energy to gather up new people who can replace those losses we had in the past so that new units and factions can be added in the future. OM needs 3 heroes first before it can be balanced. How can it be remotely balanced if one faction has only 1 hero. Adding new faction is a far patched idea and balancing existing match ups should come first but OM needing 3 heroes is certainly a necessary change and also it needs a separate screen aside from tagging along SM UI. Making this possible by forming up a contact system of new talents should not be disregarded.
"Excalibur!"
"Excalibur!"
"From the United Kingdom!"
"I'm looking for heaven!"
"I'm going to California!"
"Excalibur!"
"Excalibur!"
User avatar
Sex - Murder - Art
Level 2
Posts: 106
Joined: Sun 21 Oct, 2018 10:25 am

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 8:30 pm

cornholiocast wrote:Those keys can be taken away very quickly if abused.. that is also a part a democracy.


Oh yeah? Then why don't you try taking the keys of Adila if it's so easy? After all, you are the one who wants him to be replaced, right?

cornholiocast wrote:Like i said Boss should start improving his Social skills and behaviour


He can't improve anything. That's just the way he is. A giant brick wall. Yes, boss is skilled, has lots of knowlage about this video game, but he is not the right man to do this job. If he want to help, he can just stay outside and keep writing stuff. But he shouldn't be able to have any control over the game.
There are many ways to say the right thing, and I choose the worst way to say it.
User avatar
cornholiocast
Level 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon 27 May, 2019 3:53 pm

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby cornholiocast » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 8:38 pm

Oh yeah? Then why don't you try taking the keys of Adila if it's so easy? After all, you are the one who wants him to be replaced, right?


He hasent abused them so little need.. what i want is that we the players have a say in who is lead mod and not 2-3 people behind closed doors.. no more.. no less.. every mod in this game since Caltoes was just picked without us being asked.
User avatar
Torpid
Moderator
Posts: 3536
Joined: Sat 01 Jun, 2013 12:09 pm
Location: England, Leeds

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby Torpid » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 9:05 pm

cornholiocast wrote:
Oh yeah? Then why don't you try taking the keys of Adila if it's so easy? After all, you are the one who wants him to be replaced, right?


He hasent abused them so little need.. what i want is that we the players have a say in who is lead mod and not 2-3 people behind closed doors.. no more.. no less.. every mod in this game since Caltoes was just picked without us being asked.


Because it isn't a democracy. You don't have a right to dictate how the elite mod goes. It's not a public limited company. You aren't investing in the mod's shares. You ought to be grateful anyone does the job in the first place given it's unpaid!

The person that you want in charge is in contrast to joe bloggs down to the street and his desires in a "leader". Game design is innately subjective and mods are passion projects. Why does your opinion matter more than them? Why should those who are most willing to complain about the game/mod be the ones who opinions are given preferential treatment? What about the majority of players, some casual, some not so casual, who won't comment on this thread because they are quite happy with how things are and do not want to involve themselves in a political drama over a mod of near 10 year old video game.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
User avatar
Swift
Moderator
Posts: 2174
Joined: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 6:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby Swift » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 9:46 pm

Choose your fighter!

Adila the German engineered balance psychopath.

Boss the triggered social pariah.

Torpid the sober crackhead.

Piano the people's champion.
The internal battery has run dry, the game can now be played. However, clock based events will no longer occur.
User avatar
cornholiocast
Level 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon 27 May, 2019 3:53 pm

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby cornholiocast » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 9:57 pm

Because it isn't a democracy. You don't have a right to dictate how the elite mod goes. It's not a public limited company. You aren't investing in the mod's shares. You ought to be grateful anyone does the job in the first place given it's unpaid!

The person that you want in charge is in contrast to joe bloggs down to the street and his desires in a "leader". Game design is innately subjective and mods are passion projects. Why does your opinion matter more than them? Why should those who are most willing to complain about the game/mod be the ones who opinions are given preferential treatment? What about the majority of players, some casual, some not so casual, who won't comment on this thread because they are quite happy with how things are and do not want to involve themselves in a political drama over a mod of near 10 year old video game


If it was more Democratic perhaps people would whine less.. ? Just a thought. Neither am i dictating anything iam expressing my oppinnion dont confuse that with whining thats somthing different. I know very well people work for free and if you read my posts i been quite polite and civil unlike some other people.
Not sure how many times i need to make it clear but 1 more time cant hurt i guess. Boss should change his ways before getting anywhere near to balance mod. but it might be the motivation for him to improve who knows. What some of us ask for is a say in who does the balance whomever it might be so far it seems people are very divived on that matter to say the least You said yourself the new mantra for elite mod would be openness and transparency so far we seen little of that.
Last edited by cornholiocast on Mon 26 Aug, 2019 10:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Chokolata
Level 1
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat 14 Jun, 2014 5:30 pm

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby Chokolata » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 10:01 pm

Not trying to add fuel to the fire here, but why does it have to be democratic? The guy who made the mod (Caeltos) passed the baton to someone who forwarded it further down the line.

From my point of view, the mod is a scrambled mess balance wise... however it is very polished and fun to play (ignoring stupid units like Fire dragons :P)

2c
PianoMan
Level 3
Posts: 404
Joined: Fri 30 Jun, 2017 12:40 pm

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby PianoMan » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 10:33 pm

Chokolata wrote:Not trying to add fuel to the fire here, but why does it have to be democratic? The guy who made the mod (Caeltos) passed the baton to someone who forwarded it further down the line.

From my point of view, the mod is a scrambled mess balance wise... however it is very polished and fun to play (ignoring stupid units like Fire dragons :P)

2c

you sound like a noob
HUNTER
Level 1
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu 23 Jun, 2016 10:15 pm

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby HUNTER » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 10:35 pm

TBH, a purely democratic approach to balance changes would be horrible. It would give a valid platform to people who are not good at the game an equal standing to those who are good. The representative approach (which is what it essentially is now), is much better. Suggest something in the forum or discord and if the mod team like it they will implement it. Do you really want aminion voting on balance choices?
Bruce Campbell
Level 2
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu 25 Jul, 2019 2:44 pm

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby Bruce Campbell » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 10:38 pm

i'll vote for Adila so his ego can be at rest then, and he doesnt have to keep resetting the poll, and Torpid can stop sweating and ya'll can sleep tonight
Bruce Campbell
Level 2
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu 25 Jul, 2019 2:44 pm

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby Bruce Campbell » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 10:44 pm

HUNTER wrote:TBH, a purely democratic approach to balance changes would be horrible. It would give a valid platform to people who are not good at the game an equal standing to those who are good. The representative approach (which is what it essentially is now), is much better. Suggest something in the forum or discord and if the mod team like it they will implement it. Do you really want aminion voting on balance choices?


If a random noob suggested that ranged strike squads should have more dps it would be shunned by those of us who know better, people like me piano boss etc should all have a say as we clearly know what works in the competitive meta, thats the point.
User avatar
Schepp himself
Level 3
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun 01 Oct, 2017 4:42 pm

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby Schepp himself » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 10:49 pm

Reading through all the posts (except boss' because I have him on my ignore list due to him being a boss without manners), I actually feel very grateful that this mod exists in this version right now. Against all odds.

Greets
Schepp himself
Greets schep himself thingy
User avatar
cornholiocast
Level 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon 27 May, 2019 3:53 pm

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby cornholiocast » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 10:56 pm

Its Not a Representative democracy since nobody got the option to pick a person to represent them or their views on balance
yeah prolly atlas plus a few people..being more open and involving about the process wouldent hurt. i said what i wanted to say a few posts ago.. so thats it for me for now.

"Representative democracy is a type of democracy founded on the principle of elected officials representing a group of people, as opposed to direct democracy"
Last edited by cornholiocast on Mon 26 Aug, 2019 11:09 pm, edited 5 times in total.
HUNTER
Level 1
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu 23 Jun, 2016 10:15 pm

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby HUNTER » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 10:58 pm

Well I suppose that is true @corn. Who is ultimately picking balance leads then? Atlas?
PianoMan
Level 3
Posts: 404
Joined: Fri 30 Jun, 2017 12:40 pm

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby PianoMan » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 10:59 pm

HUNTER wrote:Well I suppose that is true @corn. Who is ultimately picking balance leads then? Atlas?

dont say that name when boss' around, he might go full boss mode
User avatar
Swift
Moderator
Posts: 2174
Joined: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 6:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby Swift » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 11:04 pm

Bruce Campbell wrote:i'll vote for Adila so his ego can be at rest then, and he doesnt have to keep resetting the poll

Oh you think

Image
The internal battery has run dry, the game can now be played. However, clock based events will no longer occur.
User avatar
boss
Level 3
Posts: 497
Joined: Mon 22 Aug, 2016 11:48 pm

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby boss » Mon 26 Aug, 2019 11:06 pm

Impregnable

You and torpid and others say I must write out my ideas about the future for the mod and stuff if I want a chance a chance to become balance head ok sure but here the thing shouldn't adila also follow this rule before he even became lead or it is just 1 rule for me?
I mean if I did become head I would give my ideas what I want to do, little point if I don't tho.

Im dyslexic so don't make fun out of my bad typing :( pls I know it's shit but it's just something you have to get used to. And yes you are right I need to work with people more instead of insults but I am already working on that so. However I try and argue why some changes are bad already a lot of the time so yea.

And my arguments are fine, caeltos got this mod going for a long time before he left and even tho a lot of people disagree with a lot of this stuff he least found a mid ground for a lot of it and the mod.
Meta should not be fucked around with much I say cos it just ends up having to change units to broken levels take one look as tcsm atm the new plasma gun breaks chaos vs sm match up. Its fine for soft buffs but not changing how a unit works unless it was not viable in games.

Atm I don't agree with any new units being added before Grey was even added the first changes caeltos did was rebalancing retail units which was overpowed in elite before he added in grey knights which was bold but he did de a decent job at it and they has fun mostly to play as and vs. As of right now our last new unit was Operatives back in 2.4 and they are still having a hard time fitting into gk builds I would say let alone gk as a whole are all over the place. First fix the mess we are in before we add new stuff let alone a race.

Adila achievement so far all his league games done so far has made everyone hate ig and now half the players won't join next one unless ig gets hammed into the ground, if anything last league showed ig was very strong yet instead of nerfs he buffed them instead.....
What cycle of balance league showed ig strong buff ig then wut feedback ig very strong need some nerfs ok, I buff them instead>new patch people ask wtf you doing.
First unless you in balance discord you don't get much of a say anyways, the whole way of how changes get done is wrong hidden way in discord instead of forums where everyone can see and talk about it this worked in the past and should be returned whatever happens hiding changes make players confused and pissed off.


And lastly who reset the fucking poll and remove antandron he don't even have the mod .........
Forums great more stuff to talk about.
User avatar
Oddnerd
Level 4
Posts: 727
Joined: Mon 27 Oct, 2014 1:50 am

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 27 Aug, 2019 12:56 am

I wasn't here during the early days of Elite mod (I joined during that patch where SS storm bolters weren't firing properly).

I'm gonna assume the old veterans, often known as the inner circle, were the ones who made elite mod what it is, and I'd rather have one of them or their associates directing the balance so Elite Mod stays somewhat true to its original vision. Us plebs can always take to the forums or discord and make suggestions (some of my shitty suggestions even made it into the game) - the only thing that sucks is having changes with no explanation or rationale provided.
Atlas

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby Atlas » Tue 27 Aug, 2019 6:22 am

Wow! This has been an interesting read. It's made me reflect on my own feelings on things. Sorry for the long read! Skip to tl;dr for the gist.

I came to this community around the 2.4 patch (or somewhere near there) probably from the same way a lot of other people did - watching Indrid's videos. I thought the game was awesome so I picked it up and pretty much immediately went into the Elite mod. I still remember my first 1v1 game :P Anyway, at the time Caeltos was still in charge and Myrdal/Wise Windu were the primary modders. Some of you might remember I was hosting tournaments around that time as well. My memory of exactly how it happened is fuzzy at this point, but after some time asking if I could help out making patches Windu and Myrdal took me under my wing.

Some of you might find this funny and ironic, but my motivation for getting into the patch making end of things had nothing to do with disliking the patches. Rather, I was irked that they weren't coming out faster haha. I really had no idea what was going on in the background but I figured hey, I was a student who had some time, maybe I can get the grease on the gears so we can get moving.

On the other hand, I was a complete code scrub (and still am). Literally had zero knowledge whatsoever coding or otherwise. To compensate for it, I pestered Myrdal a lot to teach me all of the crap I needed to get done in Cope's. Naturally I made a bunch of mistakes and I still do. But with enough determination, I eventually started to get the hang of Cope's. What I didn't know at the time was that Myrdal and Caeltos were on the edge of retirement. For this community, Caeltos has basically died and Myrdal comes around from time to time. But in terms of the patching, they were no longer active. It's the real life equivalent of the Emperor and all the Primarchs suddenly disappearing. It was at that point where I was basically handed the keys to the castle.

It has always been a curiosity of mine if many realize that, to most of the community here, I am thoroughly outranked. I occupy arguably one of, if not the, most powerful "positions" you can have for developing a mod while at the same time being the most junior among my peers. Every balance head I've ever done changes for has lost more skill then I've ever had. Every coder I've worked with is superior in their knowledge of the game.

The reason why I bring up all that boring historical/auto-biographical nonsense is because I was left "in charge" not because I was the best player or I had the best ideas or was the most liked or anything like that. Likewise, there was no election or some ceremony in any sense of the word. This may be presumptuous of me to assume, but I believe the real reason lies in that I was basically the last person standing that was trusted enough not to burn the whole thing down.

I believe there's something to be said about trust at the end of the day. Which brings me to Adila.

As you may have picked up on while reading, the post-Caeltos era has been pretty chaotic and, looking back, very epochal. I won't deny that there's been a ton of growing pains. But I really believe that we've started to turn a corner on the trajectory of where this mod is going.

It had been almost a running inside joke for the coders in the development team that we were in the midst of the Dark Age of Technology and we were salvaging STCs more than making anything new. But that was pretty much where we were. Not to disparage Torpid or Cyris as they always had their own aspirations for the mod in some way, shape or form. But we never really recovered from the brain drain that was suffered when we lost Caeltos and we really didn't have a lot to begin with.

Where Adila has excelled the most is in bringing people back into the fold. He's filled in a lot of positions that were either undermanned or simply didn't exist anymore. The conversations have changed as a result. Content creation is something that is no longer a losing battle but one we've started to gain ground on. I don't think many would argue that this is a negative development for the health of both the mod and its community.

That goes beyond the job of a balance head of course, but even in those tasks he has been exemplary. He's gotten work in on a reasonable timescale, he's been responsive and the dialogue has been almost entirely drama-free between him and others as far as I can tell. He may be a filthy Warlock main but the trains have been running on time.

Naturally, that is not to say he's been perfect. Even I've disagreed with some balance changes from time to time. But as a whole package, I really can't complain. He's earned trust and things are moving in an exciting direction directly because of all the extra work he has done. For those reasons I doubt there will be balance head changes until the situation changes. A lot.

But that's not to say that it's Adila or nothing. You don't need to be balance head to put out ideas. On the contrary, Adila is more than just an origin of balance changes but a facilitator of them as well. If you want to get your ideas out there, all you really need to do is write a comment. Post in the discord server! Heck, if you want just write up your own darn changelog like boss just did! If you want to be a part of the dev team, all you really need to do is just get in contact with myself, Adila, and a couple others and we can set you up. The fastest way to get heard is to put it out there rather than grandstanding.

I think the valuation towards skill for a balance head is a little skewed. In some ways, I feel some in the community are somewhat contradictory on their opinions because of that. Torpid is arguably the most skilled player atm, but by the same token I doubt people would approve of him making balance changes unilaterally as an example. Trying to be both democratic and meritocratic is a difficult balance and really, for the most part, I think we've done well.

Tl;dr It's more important for a balance head to be trustworthy and a team player than it is for them to be some kind of balance wunderkind. That goes for any position of group authority really. Not being balance head doesn't mean your opinion is invalid. I don't find competence arguments for balance head really compelling especially when the subject matter is so .... well, subjective... in nature to start with. The balance head is more of a facilitator as able and a dictator as needed. I think this approach allows for maximum opportunity while not getting completely deadlocked by the opinions at the same time and is the best balance between the two we can achieve atm.

Also, just to point out:
Impregnable wrote: *Low-key has the best post in this thread so far*
User avatar
Adeptus Noobus
Level 4
Posts: 991
Joined: Sat 15 Feb, 2014 12:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Tue 27 Aug, 2019 6:36 am

The current balance process is very much a democratic and transparent one and very guided by public opinions and complaints. Not sure where this idea comes from that it is anything but. The process has been explained many times before, if people cared to read and remember.

Let's go through this step by step:
  • Adila is not a dictator that rules without checks and limits. Everybody should just stop blaming him for everything (except for Strike Squads - fuck you Adila) Several people are involved in the discussion of each and every unit, game mechanic, ability etc. for each patch iteration
  • Every discussion starts with the following questions: Why are we looking at this unit/ability? What are people saying about it (this is were Discord and Forums and private chats come in and dictate the general direction of all subsequent discussions) and how are the provided information to be judged considering the different skill levels etc. It is a very tedious and boring long process that is repeated for each and every unit/ability/mechanic (prepare for hour long talks and still not being done 100%). Boss' list e.g. was a wonderful compilation that sped up the discussions by the way (Adila and Boss, looking at you 2, get together, pool your shit and make this mod great again)
  • Since the creation of the league, we now have a pool of certified high-skill games that we can more reliably deduct the current state of balance from. My last graph about the performance of each race has brought to light what many always felt but couldn't put into reliable and usable stats. This will heavily influence future balance decisions for the better (looking at you, IG).
  • Last but not least: It's funny that people in this community always step up complaining when it is oportune but when it's time to step up to actually create content, take time out of your evening to discuss shit, just anything really in general that could be considered a benefit for this community, some people are awfully quit and very much absent. Adila has proven to be a constant source of contributions to this community for the longest time and we should maybe just take a second to appreciate that. Do we have to agree with everything he says? Hell no, but keep it civil and come up with stuff yourself in return that people can work with, discuss, use, implement that is not "You are a noob. Fuck off!" etc. Either be a constructive member of this community and join the discussions or keep quite, do nothing as always and enjoy the content that other people are providing you in their free-time for free 8-)

So far, there has been valid criticism here too though:
  • Explanations for each change should be longer than ~15 words. Transparency could lead to people accepting the changes more and it provides background information that could actually inform their future play styles, build orders etc.
  • Changelogs could be posted more frequently. We will just have to sift through the BS comments everytime and try to have a proper discussion anyways

I say: Stop this debate of who should be lead. We have a very dedicated lead. Join the team instead, boss. It would help a lot and go a long way to get expert input during the discussions.

P.S: IGs performance will not go unchecked btw ;)

EDIT:
Just read through Atlas' post and what he says about Adila pretty much lines up with what I am trying to convey (well said, Atlas). Adila is the glue this community needs. A facilitator. Boss, let your self be "facilitated" into the group, pretty please with sugar on top. :lol:
Last edited by Adeptus Noobus on Tue 27 Aug, 2019 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Atlas

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby Atlas » Tue 27 Aug, 2019 6:46 am

Adeptus Noobus wrote:
I say: Stop this debate of who should be lead. We have a very dedicated lead. Join the team instead, boss. It would help a lot and go a long way to get expert input during the discussions.


EDIT:
Just read through Atlas' post and what he says about Adila pretty much lines up with what I am trying to convey (well said, Atlas). Adila is the glue this community needs. A facilitator. Boss, let your self be "facilitated" into the group, pretty please with sugar on top. :lol:


And ironically, I felt that you said what I wanted to a lot more succinctly :P

Anyway yeah, I'll keep an eye on this thread more and I think more transparency is in order as well. We (the mod team) have tried to keep mum a bit because of a mix of unpreparedness and uncertainty. There's some things in the pipeline that are exciting and we want to talk about them but at the same time we can't guarantee their implementation. On the balance topic, I think we're only now approaching a changelog skeleton we can put out. I don't see why we can't get that out and ready for viewing sometime soon.
Antandron
Level 2
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat 15 Jul, 2017 11:50 am

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby Antandron » Tue 27 Aug, 2019 7:55 am

Who put me in the poll? I don't want the job. The power would go to my head, I'd implement some of my ideas unilaterally, break the game, suffer a mutiny and be thrown overboard.

Boss, please please please go to Grammarly.com and install it. It fixes all your spelling and punctuation errors! You have no idea how hard your posts are to read sometimes.
User avatar
Indrid
Moderator
Posts: 898
Joined: Mon 04 Feb, 2013 5:06 pm
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby Indrid » Tue 27 Aug, 2019 9:45 am

I've been behind the scenes of this mod since 2.0.X, nearly seven years ago when GK were implemented (yes, GK have been in the game for that long!). It was just Lulgrim and Caeltos and I got more and more involved in mapping and pitching ideas and other little things. I'd have to poke Lulgrim to make a new update as he was working about 80 hours a week at the time.

Then Myrdal arrived to take over from an increasingly busy Lulgrim and greatly enhanced the inner workings of the process and collaborative efforts with GitHub and so on. Wise Windu then joined and we had two very good modders that could get changes out faster. But of course, as always, life catches up with people and they get more and more busy. A few times I had to rabble-rouse in GitHub to get things done and out the door, this was during the dark age in 2015-2016 ish where there would be 4-9 months between updates.

Caeltos left, Myrdal and Windu got too busy, and things got a little chaotic.

Now we have Adila and Atlas, who have stepped the fuck up when nobody else wanted to. Adila has built a small team of coders, modders and balance advisors and things are looking bright.

During all of these years and all of these changes in personnel; the competitive players, due to their nature of being competitive, have complained. Something is always "broken", "unplayable", "unwinnable" etc. Caeltos was continuously frustrated at people making snap judgements based on their losses and not trying things out and it never changes. It was the same in retail. I remember when Relic changed Stikkbommas stun bombs to be able to stun vehicles for a few seconds. Many highly ranked players lost their fucking mind over this change saying it was the most OP thing ever; now players don't even think about it. People love to be outraged and have their voice heard, take shots at those making decisions.

And don't get me started on community-led democratic changes, it's utter bollocks. Get the top ten players in a chat and they'd barely agree on anything, it just doesn't work. Someone has to make the final decision. If you haven't seen patch notes or road maps, it's simply because they're not ready to share yet. There are lots of moving parts, Adila might think of a change and not even know if it can be implemented for eg, so there is little point in sharing things too early. Changes are locked down, shared on this forum, and then iterated on depending on feedback. This has been the process the last few updates AFAIK, so I don't know what you're complaining about. They're not gonna share super early notes that go through twenty revisions internally before ever being coded. That would be insane.

TL:DR - Be grateful there still is a mod to be angry about. Adila and the team are doing a fine job with the resources they have. People will complain about everything no matter who is in charge.

BUFF PLAGUE CHAMPION
PianoMan
Level 3
Posts: 404
Joined: Fri 30 Jun, 2017 12:40 pm

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby PianoMan » Tue 27 Aug, 2019 10:28 am

and if we get the top 5 players atm in a group chat, we pretty much agree on everything
Bruce Campbell
Level 2
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu 25 Jul, 2019 2:44 pm

Re: Boss for balance lead

Postby Bruce Campbell » Tue 27 Aug, 2019 10:50 am

Can we stop conflating ''complaining and moaning'' with actual constructive criticism, which is how every balance argument should be made.
I dont feel like pussy footing around and telling you guys in the nicest possible way that Sentinels are broken so you dont think im ''complaining''
And i second what Piano said pretty much all the top players end up agreeing, generally. It's mostly just Torpid who ends up disagreeing with boss for the sake of disagreeing with boss because he has some kind of Riku complex with boss now aswell, whereas the rest of us generally agree with him
Torpid has also disagree'd with me several times but yet now agrees with me, he is such a wishy washy flip flop character that shouldnt be anywhere near balance tbh, literally everyones picked up on his bipolar tendencies at this point its become a meme, everythings fine until it beats him in a 1v1 then its op, or he uses a race, finds out he isnt great with them and they are now the weakest race.

Return to “Community General Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests