2.3 Patch Notes

Generic non-balance topics.
Arthel
Level 0
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu 25 Apr, 2013 11:29 pm

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Arthel » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 2:56 am

Caeltos wrote:
So we gain a storm bolter, lose smoke (on a vehicle already pointed out to be quite pointless in other posts), still no reinforce either.

The Smoke is available in Tier 2.

Do you not understand how big of a deal this is for transitional plays? This will lead to Rhino useage with peel/pressure/counter-pressure to that of a sentinel, which transitions into a Lascannon if you need the AV. Baring in mind, that the Lascannon Turret for the Rhino was improved not long ago.

If all goes well, the storm-bolter is a PERMAMENT equipment that works alongside with Lascannon and the Heavy-Bolter turret, effectively making the Rhino a sort of a "mini battle-tank".

Psycannon range increase by 2? really? thats a huge buff? I dont think it's even worth writing about. The range on a SM missle launcher is 44, and a regular bolter shoots 38, so that just means psycannons have been short ranged for too long.

36 to 38 is a very big deal considering the normalized weapon range is 38.

So we lose a snare, lose the only buff on our jumper squad, Chaos gains more AV dmg on the longest range, mobile and damaging AV in the game already, and nobs become more of a pain than they were before?


Oh, I see how it is...

Let's ignore all the positives and throw in some misc. irrelevant points to furthermore fuel our arguement to make it seem more sensible.

Because that's logical. :|


No, I actually have alot more to say but it'd take too long to post, nobody (esp you) would read it, and they arent irrelevant points by any means. What i'd like to know is your reasoning for these arbitrary changes, 3 extra seconds on nob invincibility, 25 (50 total) dmg on lascannon from chaos LR, changing the exp value of webways to 150 (the equivalent of 5 commander deaths), while simultaneously increasing the build time by what was it? 15 seconds? These just a few examples.

For the "Razorback" (Rhino), I only used the thing before you guys changed its armor values (because it was more useful as a sentinel without guns as a damage tank/distraction). Don't see too many ppl getting it regardless. The lascannon isnt so bad- if it weren't for its crap reload time and lack of snare.
ThongSong
Level 3
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu 05 Sep, 2013 8:32 am

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby ThongSong » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 3:04 am

overall happy with the changes. some raise an eyebrow or two but I can see where they are coming from.

one thing I am curious about is why the removal of nemesis focus on interceptors. Is it considered that they are overperforming even after their teleport took a (slight) nerf?
User avatar
Broodwich
Level 4
Posts: 527
Joined: Fri 12 Apr, 2013 10:04 pm

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Broodwich » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 3:52 am

I think the runes need more nerf than that, as aforementioned, they work great with everything but banshees which are ridiculous. Maybe change the damage buff to just ranged instead of all? The heal is already pretty beastly and allows them to stay in combat way longer, on a unit that does a ton of damage already.
Fas est ab hoste doceri
User avatar
Caeltos
Moderator
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun 03 Feb, 2013 10:49 pm

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Caeltos » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 4:39 am

No, I actually have alot more to say but it'd take too long to post, nobody (esp you) would read it, and they arent irrelevant points by any means.

What the fuck is your problem?

What i'd like to know is your reasoning for these arbitrary changes, 3 extra seconds on nob invincibility, 25 (50 total) dmg on lascannon from chaos LR, changing the exp value of webways to 150 (the equivalent of 5 commander deaths), while simultaneously increasing the build time by what was it? 15 seconds? These just a few examples.

If you see it as arbitary, then so be it. Nothing that I implement are just thrown in for the sake of just doing it.

Chaos Land Raider Phobos doesn't always single-target damage due to the nature of the side-lascannons, which resulted in somewhat of a swinging performance in it's heavy-glassc cannon role.

I wasn't aware that 150 EXP = 500 experience. Unless you somehow managed to fuck up with red/exp difference, which is a close to nigh-impossible to even do in the first place. Any seasoned or veteran experience knows the difference, and it doesn't take you to be a genius that making 1x Webway Gate be the equivalent of 5x Commander kills is nothing short of sheer absurdity.

For the "Razorback" (Rhino), I only used the thing before you guys changed its armor values (because it was more useful as a sentinel without guns as a damage tank/distraction). Don't see too many ppl getting it regardless. The lascannon isnt so bad- if it weren't for its crap reload time and lack of snare.


It cannot have a snare due to it's design. Giving storm-bolter Rhino offers a more protective and conservative way to play GK, and this results in giving the GK more overall resources to utilize. Couple that with Purifiers cost reduction + reinf. cost reduction in conjunction with that, you're more flexible in your early-mid game build options and transitions and general army compositions.

one thing I am curious about is why the removal of nemesis focus on interceptors. Is it considered that they are overperforming even after their teleport took a (slight) nerf?

I'll clarify on this, the Interceptor Nemesis Focus caused alot of issues within transitional scaling progression and counter-plays towards Interceptors. They already have a very respectable amount of melee damage, and with Nemesis Focus, it got even higher - couple that with alot of the synergize-design of GK in a nutshell to utilize their roster to full potential, the damage spikes grew abit out of proportion. (Global , WATH etc) and outright negated alot of unit compositions to deal with them.

So, the things to point out are that caused some issues;
- Instant Teleportation
- No wonky clonky jump-around animations, they're straight onto business and hacking stuff. Which results in a very consistent dps
- Melee damage spikes through buffs

Unfortunately, the no snare- design with GK is staying it was always the plan, much like sticking with no "proper" suppression team. Grey Knights are meant to be more synergized within the army roster, rather than ego-centric.
User avatar
Forestradio
Level 5
Posts: 1157
Joined: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 5:09 pm

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Forestradio » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 5:51 am

I'm a GK player (until i get sick of them) and I agree that interceptors were pretty bullshit with nemesis focus and levels.

Even with the removal of this, they are still going to be the best jump unit in the game, with fantastic support capabilities.

And now Purifiers cost less :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
User avatar
Kvek
Level 4
Posts: 792
Joined: Mon 01 Apr, 2013 12:26 pm
Location: Czech Republic

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Kvek » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 5:59 am

Arthel wrote:
Caeltos wrote:[b]
* Nemesis Focus on Interceptor Squad removed
* Vindicare Assassin no longer snares on his anti-vehicle shots

Why??
In many other posts I've seen people go back n fourth about the Vind, but we all know
1) He has low HP and is a micro intensive unit
2) Not the highest damaging AV
3) Not the longest range AV
So now we're taking away the only GK AV slow?


He has low hp? He doesn't have to setup (a very short one). and ofc he will be a micro intensive unit. He's a freaking tank raper, and he has a super high av damage if you use his second ability.

He has a decent range, and he's also more mobile than the AV options
only GK AV slow? Ever heard of lulterceptors?
Lesten
Level 2
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat 21 Sep, 2013 1:54 pm

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Lesten » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 9:28 am

As an Eldar player I'm not sure I like Dark Reapers getting FoF. Partly because I think it'll allow them to get away too easily and partly because it's contrary to the lore.

In the lore (and tabletop) they're one of the few Eldar units that CAN'T Fleet (even the Avatar has FoF iirc). Dark Reapers are supposed to be "Slow and Purposeful", which means they can't run but they can shoot their heavy weapons while moving. They're described as "relatively slow" and that their role is "long-ranged fire support".

I know balance is more important than lore, but I still don't think it should be ignored unless it's absolutely necessary – some semblance to what the unit is supposed to be like would be nice, other than their appearance. At least this change doesn't seem necessary, so why break the lore when there's no need to?

I'd say greater accuracy on the move (or is it already 100%?) or even better range would be a better solution. More HP if you're aiming to give them more survivability.

Other than that I think most changes seem pretty good (10 sec Nob frenzy? We're doomed!)
User avatar
Lost Son of Nikhel
Contributor
Posts: 636
Joined: Wed 13 Feb, 2013 4:26 pm
Location: The Warp

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 10:09 am

Caeltos wrote:Chaos
* Curse of Tzeentch explosion now deals 15% of the targets maximum health in damage. Rather then a flat amount.
* Curse of Tzeentch now last 20 seconds (from 14?)

Good change. At the moment Curse of Tzeentch was only useful against swarmy races.

Caeltos wrote:* Raptor Aspiring Champion damage/dps increased from 40 to 45
* Reduced Chaos Raptor Aspiring Champion upkeep from 12.8 to 10.8

I like buffs, but I don't see neccessary the first one. At the moment, Raptor Aspiring Champion is doing a lot more damage than the regular Raptor (21.54 vs 40 dps against commander armour, 30.77 vs 52 against HI armour, 21.54 vs 52 against SHI armour...)

I would like to see a buff to their role, like a passive Jump energy reduction cost in T2 or T3, to synergy better with the other two abilities; a little self passive damage increase when they kill something or a little demoralize effect... Not simply make the AC even more essential for an adequate cost/effectivness of the squad.

Caeltos wrote:* Land Raider Phobos Lascannon damage increased from 150 to 175

I said it like 10 times, but I would like the LRP a support role instead of a glass cannon one. But well, at least the LRP is more glass cannon and do more AV damage than the MoT Chaos Predator.

Caeltos wrote:* Reduced Chaos Space Marine Aspiring Champion upkeep from 12.8 to 10.8

Same as the Raptor Aspiring Champion. I would like to give him a bit more utility than a simple "another guy to the squad".
"Pater, peccavi in caelum et coram te; iam non sum dignus vocari filius tuus". Dixit autem pater: "manducemus et epulemur, quia hic filius meus mortuus erat et revixit, perierat et inventus est"

There will be no forgiveness for us.
User avatar
Sub_Zero
Suspended
Posts: 915
Joined: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 4:12 pm

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Sub_Zero » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 10:50 am

- Instant Teleportation

That is the thing that makes them OP. Just think about it. You have no time to react on their instantaneous disruptive jump. And it leads to squad wipes. Setup teams suffer especially. They are like havocs in that regard. Havocs do break the balance too because you simply have no time to react and move out of their firing arc. Is there anything in the game that gives you no time to react? Hm, let me think. Libby's smite. It was nerfed significantly because of that. Weirdboy's vomit. It was nerfed... oh, wait, it wasn't. Another thing to think about? Can't recall other things, will you help me?
User avatar
Caeltos
Moderator
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun 03 Feb, 2013 10:49 pm

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Caeltos » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 11:45 am

Another thing to think about? Can't recall other things, will you help me?

All instant buffs/debuffs in the game.
User avatar
Sub_Zero
Suspended
Posts: 915
Joined: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 4:12 pm

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Sub_Zero » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 12:18 pm

Yeah, but these abilities come from heroes. I was talking about units that can damage/disrupt things and easily wipe it later by themselves or with any help of other units. Interceptors are definetely capable of it. Heck they are the only jump squad that forces me to buy something that can stun them and get rid of them quickly. I go for SM dreads and weird boys and other sources of stun to stop that annoyance coming from them. Usually I don't want to counter super hardly other jump units. That means something, for sure.
EDIT:
My suggestion is to rework it a bit. With their justicar they can disrupt things but not immediatly. The disruption comes afterwards. I mean they teleport like they do in T1 and don't disrupt immediatly. Is it even possible to implement? That might be considered as a buff! I will explain why. You teleport them on some setup team, your opponent keep his melee units aside. Your interceptors start to damage that setup team and force it to retreat, your opponent's melee unit starts to attack them and get disrupted. What is the standart midair time of assault marines/raptor? 2 seconds? 3 seconds? Disruption might be activated after the teleport and a 3 second delay.

Don't forget to include in the next update mipmaps for all the models of DavidCZ, please!
User avatar
Ar-Aamon
Level 3
Posts: 280
Joined: Sun 24 Mar, 2013 12:07 pm
Location: Titan

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Ar-Aamon » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 1:12 pm

Those changes are promising. Nonetheless I miss some nerfs in particular UYC global of the WB and the Executioner upgrade for the Leman Russ Battle Tank.

Well UYC is insanely good for its price. First you can use this global almost in every engagement. Second it last for ages (over 20 sec, I don’t know the correct number) so its really hard to control a sluggas/stormboys/nobs for such a long time. Once in CC you get tear to pieces. A price adjustment and lower duration is justified imho. What do you think?

The Executioner upgrade is ridiculous good. This rapid fire Executioner cannon melts infantry and vehicles in equal measure. Please lower the damage output or at least make it less effective against vehicles.

@ Arthel
Calm down a bit. Interceptors are really tough customers to deal with even without their Nemesis upgrade. They are a bane for setup teams and their retreat killing potential is huge. So it’s ok to cut the Nemsis upgrade. Furthermore you have to consider that Purifiers are now cheaper.

@Sub_Zero
I don't think this is a good idea. They jump in and nothing happens. The opponent dodges the knockback. Interceptors get focused down. Bear in mind that Interceptors are often used as engagement opener especially to disrupt a range blob for the following GK melee army. And what about the second jump before the delayed knockback?
User avatar
Sub_Zero
Suspended
Posts: 915
Joined: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 4:12 pm

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Sub_Zero » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 1:57 pm

Maybe a one second delay? You need some time to recognize a threat and retreat in time to prevent bleed. One second is enough. Once you see those blue circles press 4 and x or what you need. You pay a lot of resources to reinforce models of setup teams. Every engagement. That is not OK.
User avatar
Forestradio
Level 5
Posts: 1157
Joined: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 5:09 pm

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Forestradio » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 2:41 pm

Sub_Zero wrote:Maybe a one second delay? You need some time to recognize a threat and retreat in time to prevent bleed. One second is enough. Once you see those blue circles press 4 and x or what you need. You pay a lot of resources to reinforce models of setup teams. Every engagement. That is not OK.


never mind that interceptors cost more than every other jump unit while not being significantly more durable.

They just got nerfed by having some of their raw dps and health reduced come T2. And they are the ONLY GK unit that can wipe units aside from terminators with incinerators.
User avatar
Torpid
Moderator
Posts: 3536
Joined: Sat 01 Jun, 2013 12:09 pm
Location: England, Leeds

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Torpid » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 2:43 pm

What Forest said.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
User avatar
Lost Son of Nikhel
Contributor
Posts: 636
Joined: Wed 13 Feb, 2013 4:26 pm
Location: The Warp

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 3:04 pm

Interceptor Squad is more expensive because:
a) In T1 have the same damage than the Raptor squad and the same health than a Assault Marine Squad.
b) In T1 the Teleport is instant, which makes it most difficult to control than the Raptor or Assault Marine one. His drawback (no suppress or knockback) is solved in T2 with the Justicar.
c) Have access to tons of different support abilities which increases greatly their effectiveness.

IMHO with the remove of Nemesis Focus the Interceptor Squad is balanced.

Purifiers aren't good retreat killers? They have the longest range charge in the game AFAIK, and can have the same speed than KCSM with WATH.
"Pater, peccavi in caelum et coram te; iam non sum dignus vocari filius tuus". Dixit autem pater: "manducemus et epulemur, quia hic filius meus mortuus erat et revixit, perierat et inventus est"

There will be no forgiveness for us.
User avatar
Sub_Zero
Suspended
Posts: 915
Joined: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 4:12 pm

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Sub_Zero » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 3:11 pm

never mind that interceptors cost more than every other jump unit while not being significantly more durable.

They just got nerfed by having some of their raw dps and health reduced come T2. And they are the ONLY GK unit that can wipe units aside from terminators with incinerators.

And what it has to do with my suggestion? Really, nothing. Insta disruption or disruption after a 1 second pause. It doesn't influence their combat capabilities. But it does influence that setup teams will stop bleeding from these furious scumbags!..
User avatar
fankater
Level 2
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu 10 Oct, 2013 11:46 am
Location: Poland

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby fankater » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 3:45 pm

Mr Caeltos, are you plan to add new portraits, new IST model, darker VA skin, new Exitus Rifle for him or new blasta model for Flash Gitz in this patch ? Any news about Tau ? Really can`t wait to play them :roll:
For the Emperor skurwysyny !
User avatar
Caeltos
Moderator
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun 03 Feb, 2013 10:49 pm

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Caeltos » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 4:08 pm

fankater wrote:Mr Caeltos, are you plan to add new portraits, new IST model, darker VA skin, new Exitus Rifle for him or new blasta model for Flash Gitz in this patch ? Any news about Tau ? Really can`t wait to play them :roll:


Depends on how fast they can be implemented (The models, portraits etc) , cosmetics are usually not on the highest of priorities, but any enhancements are always welcome and implemented.

Tau - No ETA, I'd rather people not ask about it. ;)
Mastercrafted
Level 0
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed 23 Oct, 2013 5:25 am

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Mastercrafted » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 9:25 pm

I was wondering if you have considered lowering the power cost of purifiers instead of the req, if I am not mistaken the squad (justicar included) is like 110 maybe 100 power, this along with the justicar dying quite consistently (maybe this is just me) makes the squad a constant resource drain, also from my experience with it, it needs support in the form of a librarian don't think the BC is enough. I would appreciate your insight on this you are far more experienced in this game than me.

P.S: Don't let haters get to you awesome mod :D
User avatar
sterling
Contributor
Posts: 358
Joined: Sat 23 Nov, 2013 6:00 pm

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby sterling » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 10:31 pm

Caeltos wrote:
fankater wrote:Mr Caeltos, are you plan to add new portraits, new IST model, darker VA skin, new Exitus Rifle for him or new blasta model for Flash Gitz in this patch ? Any news about Tau ? Really can`t wait to play them :roll:


Depends on how fast they can be implemented (The models, portraits etc) , cosmetics are usually not on the highest of priorities, but any enhancements are always welcome and implemented.


Well, it just so happens...

http://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=397
New models for Elite and Retribution...
http://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=397
User avatar
Raffa
Level 4
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue 30 Jul, 2013 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Raffa » Wed 22 Jan, 2014 10:44 pm

Would be good to see at least some of sterling's work in the game. All reactions I can find have been positive, and it's pretty clear he's put a lot of time into making high-quality stuff that fits in well with what's already in the game.

In fact his models/weapons/etc.. are basically just upgrades on existing things.
Arthel
Level 0
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu 25 Apr, 2013 11:29 pm

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Arthel » Thu 23 Jan, 2014 4:42 am

Caeltos wrote:
What the fuck is your problem?

Alot of stuff like I said, one being when you ignore people that're trying to tell you about glitches in-game.

If you see it as arbitary, then so be it. Nothing that I implement are just thrown in for the sake of just doing it.

Everyon'e entitled to an opinion, and I admit I'm not always on the forums to see every discussion, but nontheless- Orks and Chaos don't need the buffs. Their units are already cheaper req/powerwise than SM or GK, and their damage/HP/versatility is more than adequate to makeup for any loss.


I wasn't aware that 150 EXP = 500 experience. Unless you somehow managed to fuck up with red/exp difference, which is a close to nigh-impossible to even do in the first place. Any seasoned or veteran experience knows the difference, and it doesn't take you to be a genius that making 1x Webway Gate be the equivalent of 5x Commander kills is nothing short of sheer absurdity.

I did confuse global with Exp value (and it sure would be absurd otherwise), but its still suffering from a multiple nerf syndrome. I dunno if people complaining non-stop on the forums or what, but you nerfed it in multiple categories at the same time.
Webway Gate XP value increased from 50 to 150
Webway Gate build time increased from 15 to 25 seconds
Eldar "Webway Gate" health decreased from 450 to 250


It cannot have a snare due to it's design. Giving storm-bolter Rhino offers a more protective and conservative way to play GK, and this results in giving the GK more overall resources to utilize. Couple that with Purifiers cost reduction + reinf. cost reduction in conjunction with that, you're more flexible in your early-mid game build options and transitions and general army compositions.

I agree that a snare would be ridiculous on the "Rhino" since ob it can move and shoot.


I'll clarify on this, the Interceptor Nemesis Focus caused alot of issues within transitional scaling progression and counter-plays towards Interceptors. They already have a very respectable amount of melee damage, and with Nemesis Focus, it got even higher - couple that with alot of the synergize-design of GK in a nutshell to utilize their roster to full potential, the damage spikes grew abit out of proportion. (Global , WATH etc) and outright negated alot of unit compositions to deal with them.

They need the nemesis focus because early game they lack thanks to no knockdown/stun etc, and lategame other squads get things like vanguard vets, and much better leaders such as Storm boy Nob, and Raptor champ. 'Ard boyz squad of sluggas will probably kill a WATH/globaled ceptors unless they got lucky knockbacks.

So, the things to point out are that caused some issues;
- Instant Teleportation
- No wonky clonky jump-around animations, they're straight onto business and hacking stuff. Which results in a very consistent dps
- Melee damage spikes through buffs


Instant teleportation is great- since we have no grenades to wipe people on retreat/have pretty much the slowest army in the game.

No clonky jump? They teleport in and stand around as if they were sucking on Psykotroke grenades half the time.

Melee damage spikes?
a little- sure. but ceptors do 40 piercing, automatically they already lose to Khorne marines, banshees, ASM, Stormboyz, and sluggas with burnas (and do less dmg to anyone in power armor+) and they're 500/50 without any upgrades. Give em a hero and they'll still lose to an equivalently upgraded squad above- give em nemesis focus (and hero) and they can prooooobably win if they get the jump knockdown.
User avatar
Forestradio
Level 5
Posts: 1157
Joined: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 5:09 pm

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Forestradio » Thu 23 Jan, 2014 5:12 am

@Arthel

I have no idea what you mean by interceptors do 40 dps piercing.

They do 30.77 dps melee_pvp on normal marines, and 34.62 dps power melee on the justicar. That's 91 normal melee and 34 power melee as a squad.

In ranged stance, they do ~29 piercing dps with all four models.

http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... ptor_squad

Yes they do beat ASM, they do way more dps than ASM do, and you can teleport to help dodge the merciless strike. And their krak nade is waaaaay better than ASM melta bomb (and costs less energy).

THEY ARE A JUMP UNIT. THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BEAT DEDICATED MELEE UNITS.
Please don't compare them to KCSM, or shees, or t2 sluggas.

If you want a dedicated melee unit, get purifiers (which are fucking awesome).

In fact, I see this nerf to interceptors (and the subsequent buff to purifiers) as a way to make purifiers more desirable to GK.

Mr. Caeltos has put a lot of time and effort into GK, and I trust that this change isn't going to adversely affect interceptors.
User avatar
Caeltos
Moderator
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun 03 Feb, 2013 10:49 pm

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Caeltos » Thu 23 Jan, 2014 5:27 am

Alot of stuff like I said, one being when you ignore people that're trying to tell you about glitches in-game.

Alot, and by that you mean the Interceptor occasionally deciding to take longer then intended to throw their Krak Grenade. That's the only "glitch/bug"- bug report I found on this thread. I've known about that for quite some time, but sometimes it's just not an easy fix. Don't assume that I don't know about just because I don't confirm everything I read. I read EVERY post on these forums that are either bug reports, or balance related, and Lulgrim does as well.

Everyon'e entitled to an opinion, and I admit I'm not always on the forums to see every discussion, but nontheless- Orks and Chaos don't need the buffs. Their units are already cheaper req/powerwise than SM or GK, and their damage/HP/versatility is more than adequate to makeup for any loss.

I have to read, interact and play the game. I base my judgements on feedback and my own and blend into the mixture that is the changelog we get. You are severely tunnel-visioning the changelogs way too much at the moment, and it gets you a skewed perspective on the whole matter at hand. You need to put yourself in the position as multiple "mains" and review the changelog from there on, not just from one-side of the fence. See both pros and cons.

but its still suffering from a multiple nerf syndrome. I dunno if people complaining non-stop on the forums or what, but you nerfed it in multiple categories at the same time.

I get alot of messages regarding Webway Gates frequently, from players of various skills. Sometimes it can be difficult to be honest to admit your mistakes when you could have dealt with the situation better, but sometimes it's just out of your hand to do anything about it. Sometimes a consecutive session of nerfs is just a deemed neccasary action, Webway is not an exclusive issue.

They need the nemesis focus because early game they lack thanks to no knockdown/stun etc, and lategame other squads get things like vanguard vets, and much better leaders such as Storm boy Nob, and Raptor champ. 'Ard boyz squad of sluggas will probably kill a WATH/globaled ceptors unless they got lucky knockbacks.

They gain the knockdown effect from the Justicar. So if that's what you need primarily into your army composition, that's what you should prioritize, not neccasarily Nemesis Focus, which is quite an economical dump for just "improvement" rather than broadening your army composition and capability. Besides that, Nemesis Focus doesn't usually come into factor of mid-game which is more around 8-10 minutes into the game. Many GK's would forego the upgrade and prioritize on the crucial Dreadnought for their AV-countermeasures. Popular builds would be, SS, ST, Interceptor, T2 , Dread - Then Fillers

By the time you're into T2, you'd probably want to ensure your Brother-Captain is starting to reach his wargear peaks as well. Altho you could pour that into T1, but Interceptor + ST sergeants (etc) requires alot of power investment, which could result in faulty AV-transitional plays, which is one of the biggest downfall of GK AV- countermeasures. You could in 2.3 go for something like;

SS, ST, Interceptor (Skip 1x misc. wargear on either ST or BC) and head into T2 (since Rhino aint so taxing on your economy in early-game) then transition the Rhino to Lasturret and assist it with Interceptor with Krak. Or, you could transition it into more pressure oriented unit with Heavy-Bolter, and fill in with Vindicare.


Instant teleportation is great- since we have no grenades to wipe people on retreat/have pretty much the slowest army in the game.

No clonky jump? They teleport in and stand around as if they were sucking on Psykotroke grenades half the time.


GK isn't really the slowest army in the game. They're actually quite mobile. And what I'm talking about the instant teleportation is the fact that compared to other jump troops;

- They have an animation stringed to their jump, meaning there's a short wind-up + animation for the jump to occur, which results in you landing on the designated location (depending on the distance(?) inbetween from 1-3ish seconds. Meaning that getting retreat kills is far less likely, but do happend on occasions.

However, compared to Stormboy/ASM that have a charge-attack as in - They leap, which inflicts no damage, and will stop where the model was standing. Resulting in both hits lost and inconsistant dps on retreating units. This however can be offset by already being inside melee range to begin with, so that you don't gain the charge effect, or it's on cooldown.

Interceptor charge is just a straight up speed buff, compared to most regular melee unit troops in the game. Which makes them ALOT more powerful retreat killers. Sometimes this is more beneficial then having the access to retreat-grenades either way.

As for standing still and not throwing their Krak-Grenade is just a bug - not sure on what the issue is. Sometimes it works just fine, sometimes it doesn't.

a little- sure. but ceptors do 40 piercing, automatically they already lose to Khorne marines, banshees, ASM, Stormboyz,

There's no such thing as piercing melee damage. It's called melee_pvp :|

And how on earth they lose to ASM is beyond my wildest comprehension. They have the same health as an Assault Marine and do more damage. Banshees are designated melee fighters, they're suppose to be highly effective there, whereas Intereceptors are more about trading blows more efficiently then Assault Marines. Khorne Marines don't also come into play into T2, and again - similiar aspect towards Banshees. They're designed to be a force to be reckoned in melee vs HI/SHI, it's just basic scissor beats paper design. If you want to beat Khorne Marines, you invest into Purifier that are more effective at trading blows, or wargears/walker or ranged-dps blob that can peel them.
User avatar
Commissar Vocaloid
Shoutcaster
Posts: 329
Joined: Tue 25 Jun, 2013 5:37 pm
Location: Canada

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Commissar Vocaloid » Thu 23 Jan, 2014 6:09 am

Had a feeling that the spotters incendiary would take a dmg decrease/duration increase nerf/buff. Wonder how it will play out when I find time to play in the next little while.

General expected nerfs with some interest units buffed for IG like Cata's and LG (and slight slight buff re: Ogryn's Bone'ead), will be interesting to see how it plays out now. Also totally didn't really think about the spammability of the Commissar's Flare, so I think that the CD from 60 to 120 is probably more than fair.
Image
Twitch: commissar_vocaloid
Tex wrote:Torpid + Riku sittin in a tree, A-R-G-U-I-N-G, first comes opinion, then comes a bias, then comes a never ending loop of philosophical retorts in response to childish finger wagging.
ThongSong
Level 3
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu 05 Sep, 2013 8:32 am

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby ThongSong » Thu 23 Jan, 2014 6:54 am

Quite happy with the changes to commissar flare and spotter. with all those anti-range abilities dealing with a well-handled commissar with a powersword could be quite a nightmare for a space marine army, since it locks down devs, shotgun scouts and tacs 24/7
Arthel
Level 0
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu 25 Apr, 2013 11:29 pm

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Arthel » Thu 23 Jan, 2014 8:54 am

Ready for the wall of text? ;)
@Caeltos&Radio the Forest

Caeltos wrote:
Alot, and by that you mean the Interceptor occasionally deciding to take longer then intended to throw their Krak Grenade. That's the only "glitch/bug"- bug report I found on this thread. I've known about that for quite some time, but sometimes it's just not an easy fix. Don't assume that I don't know about just because I don't confirm everything I read. I read EVERY post on these forums that are either bug reports, or balance related, and Lulgrim does as well.

No, it was on steam chat I was telling you about the Warlock jump/Ethereal slash bug but you just chose to ignore me. Ofc you may have known about it, but you dont have to just ignore people.

I have to read, interact and play the game. I base my judgements on feedback and my own and blend into the mixture that is the changelog we get. You are severely tunnel-visioning the changelogs way too much at the moment, and it gets you a skewed perspective on the whole matter at hand. You need to put yourself in the position as multiple "mains" and review the changelog from there on, not just from one-side of the fence. See both pros and cons.

I always try to stay objective, and while I do certainly main SM races and hate things like banshees, in my initial post I had posted in favor of Eldar had I not?

I get alot of messages regarding Webway Gates frequently, from players of various skills. Sometimes it can be difficult to be honest to admit your mistakes when you could have dealt with the situation better, but sometimes it's just out of your hand to do anything about it. Sometimes a consecutive session of nerfs is just a deemed neccasary action, Webway is not an exclusive issue.

Absolutely, god forbid it's ever the players fault, thats why people need to watch replays and asses what they did instead of just complaining when they lose. I find the mechanic of webways op, but it's far too easy to see them being built now, and since their hp has lowered by half its also easy to kill em.

They gain the knockdown effect from the Justicar. So if that's what you need primarily into your army composition, that's what you should prioritize, not neccasarily Nemesis Focus, which is quite an economical dump for just "improvement" rather than broadening your army composition and capability. Besides that, Nemesis Focus doesn't usually come into factor of mid-game which is more around 8-10 minutes into the game. Many GK's would forego the upgrade and prioritize on the crucial Dreadnought for their AV-countermeasures. Popular builds would be, SS, ST, Interceptor, T2 , Dread - Then Fillers

I always get my dread before upgrading my ceptors if I can manage my opponent, but the problem is, justicar is spensive, he only has 50 more hp than the rest, only 5 more dmg, and power melee 1 weapon doesnt really matter in the grand scheme of things, he is only sooo necessary because he changes their jump. Recently i've been getting the nemesis focus first because i find he dies too much otherwise.
Yup, that sounds like the one I use.

By the time you're into T2, you'd probably want to ensure your Brother-Captain is starting to reach his wargear peaks as well. Altho you could pour that into T1, but Interceptor + ST sergeants (etc) requires alot of power investment, which could result in faulty AV-transitional plays, which is one of the biggest downfall of GK AV- countermeasures. You could in 2.3 go for something like;

SS, ST, Interceptor (Skip 1x misc. wargear on either ST or BC) and head into T2 (since Rhino aint so taxing on your economy in early-game) then transition the Rhino to Lasturret and assist it with Interceptor with Krak. Or, you could transition it into more pressure oriented unit with Heavy-Bolter, and fill in with Vindicare.

Thats basically what i do with the multi melta, and then ppl cry about how op the GK dread is when their walker dies to mine.
Well, you know how I feel about the rhino =\ Can't we have a inq chimera?
Now that you're nerfing the vindicare, just as Radio The Forest said about the Ceptors being nerfed- just makes other units more appealing, so ive switched to getting the libby.

GK isn't really the slowest army in the game. They're actually quite mobile. And what I'm talking about the instant teleportation is the fact that compared to other jump troops;

- They have an animation stringed to their jump, meaning there's a short wind-up + animation for the jump to occur, which results in you landing on the designated location (depending on the distance(?) inbetween from 1-3ish seconds. Meaning that getting retreat kills is far less likely, but do happend on occasions.

However, compared to Stormboy/ASM that have a charge-attack as in - They leap, which inflicts no damage, and will stop where the model was standing. Resulting in both hits lost and inconsistant dps on retreating units. This however can be offset by already being inside melee range to begin with, so that you don't gain the charge effect, or it's on cooldown.

Interceptor charge is just a straight up speed buff, compared to most regular melee unit troops in the game. Which makes them ALOT more powerful retreat killers. Sometimes this is more beneficial then having the access to retreat-grenades either way.

As for standing still and not throwing their Krak-Grenade is just a bug - not sure on what the issue is. Sometimes it works just fine, sometimes it doesn't.

Well thank goodness we have something for retreat kills, all I have to say is- Banshees. Cultists. Nades.
As for the bug, I understand, sucks =\ I just had to let it out to you at least once so I know you know.

There's no such thing as piercing melee damage. It's called melee_pvp :|

I try my best to remember all the literal names, please bear with me Cael.

And how on earth they lose to ASM is beyond my wildest comprehension. They have the same health as an Assault Marine and do more damage. Banshees are designated melee fighters, they're suppose to be highly effective there, whereas Intereceptors are more about trading blows more efficiently then Assault Marines. Khorne Marines don't also come into play into T2, and again - similiar aspect towards Banshees. They're designed to be a force to be reckoned in melee vs HI/SHI, it's just basic scissor beats paper design. If you want to beat Khorne Marines, you invest into Purifier that are more effective at trading blows, or wargears/walker or ranged-dps blob that can peel them.

How on Holy Terra it happens is because T1 they have no knockdown which again- makes them the worst T1 jump up there with storm boys (who'll beat them thanks to their power weapons) and now that nemesis focus wont exist vanguard will kill them for sure- without vanguard its a tossup.

Radio the Forest wrote:@Arthel

I have no idea what you mean by interceptors do 40 dps piercing.

They do 30.77 dps melee_pvp on normal marines, and 34.62 dps power melee on the justicar. That's 91 normal melee and 34 power melee as a squad.

Excuse me, I meant damage/hit.
Their ranged damage is more or less negligable- as each squad of their corresponing types raptors and asm pistols do 7.5 which is half the dps of a reg tac bolter.
Using their ranged attack is not to be underestimated and sometimes useful ofc.

Yes they do beat ASM, they do way more dps than ASM do, and you can teleport to help dodge the merciless strike. And their krak nade is waaaaay better than ASM melta bomb (and costs less energy).

Using the tele to dodge merciless is a nice idea- if you have the energy to do it. Often I use strike justicar's energy move to help em out in the regard however- the ASM nade is better in that it cant hit ur own dread, if had a deff dread run up to my dread with a melta attached and hit both of us, wouldnt happen with ASM melta.

THEY ARE A JUMP UNIT. THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BEAT DEDICATED MELEE UNITS.
Please don't compare them to KCSM, or shees, or t2 sluggas.

If you want a dedicated melee unit, get purifiers (which are fucking awesome).

Yes thats a true statement but it doesnt change the fact that ceptors not only cost more than ASM and raptors, they have no knockdown, no suppression, and their leader is not only necessary to the squads performance but is not as good as other races jumper sergeant counter parts- Nob leader with heavy weapon, SM leader with merciless strike, raptors with lightning claw or hammer.
Also you have to compare them to things like sluggas because they cost significantly less and with burnas they can easily kill a strike or ceptor squad espicially with ard boyz.

In fact, I see this nerf to interceptors (and the subsequent buff to purifiers) as a way to make purifiers more desirable to GK.

Mr. Caeltos has put a lot of time and effort into GK, and I trust that this change isn't going to adversely affect interceptors.

Yes thats true- but making one squad worse to make another squad more appealing doesn't make sense unless Caeltos is trying to force people to make purifers.

Purifiers are good at melee- they damn better be, I would call them underpar for 500 req but thankfully thats been lowered. Mainly because they only do about the dmg of said dedicated units like khorne rines, but had the cost of Ogryns.

If anything I would say lower the cost of ceptors to 450/50 at least, it's already been done for strikes, purifiers, and all the other SM guys as well.

Yes Caeltos and the team has put alot of time and effort into this. I just cringe when I see patches that scare me. Ofc nothings final, but thats the time to address issues, not later.
User avatar
Sub_Zero
Suspended
Posts: 915
Joined: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 4:12 pm

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby Sub_Zero » Thu 23 Jan, 2014 9:33 am

THEY ARE A JUMP UNIT. THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BEAT DEDICATED MELEE UNITS.

Please, don't say it. There is no such rule in this game. Assault marines with their disruptive abilities beat fully upgraded banshees with any aspect. Stormboyz pretty much own any T1 melee squad in the game and I believe they can own some T2 melee squads. They got really broken dps. 30 power melee each model does (more than banshees) and the nob does something about 50 heavy melee (he has become worse against infantry though, he used to have power melee type of damage). And they stun on landing. Which gives a huge edge versus any infantry unit in the game.

No need to quote tons of letters... That is useless and only annoy people.
ThongSong
Level 3
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu 05 Sep, 2013 8:32 am

Re: 2.3 Patch Notes

Postby ThongSong » Thu 23 Jan, 2014 10:28 am

Ive had asms kick the shit out of my purifiers because they got a merciless strike off and get very lucky with their specials.

at the same time I've had a strike squad with a justicar pound raptors/asms just because they got specials off first.

nothing is absolute in the grimdark 41st millennia. except for eldar cheese

Return to “Community General Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 46 guests