[Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Nurland » Thu 21 Mar, 2013 4:46 pm

Commissar Yarrick wrote:When there are only one or two soft counters to deal with melee, that is either get Devils or Sentinel with a stomp (Set-up easily flanked thus unit does not count)


Uhh... Well. Chans are a pretty hard melee counter in my books. And HWT is also a perfectly viable melee counter (in my opinion). Especially as you can quite easily prevent flanks with senti/catas.

So you think that for example chaos has only one melee counter and SM one soft apart from FC?
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Shas'el Doran'ro » Thu 21 Mar, 2013 4:53 pm

After reading through this thread I too don't see the point of adding an entire new melee squad, but a small melee upgrade for basic guardsmen would be a nice addition without giving IG a too easy/cheap counter to melee.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Commissar Yarrick » Thu 21 Mar, 2013 5:04 pm

Shas'el Doran'ro wrote:After reading through this thread I too don't see the point of adding an entire new melee squad, but a small melee upgrade for basic guardsmen would be a nice addition without giving IG a too easy/cheap counter to melee.


I think GM could get their Bayonet upgrade for their rifles so they could fight better in melee. But that may become an issue as too early melee rush.
Last edited by Commissar Yarrick on Thu 21 Mar, 2013 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Thu 21 Mar, 2013 5:09 pm

Seriously, we have Catachans already. Make a upgrade to convert they on a full melee squad. Problem solved.

Guardsmen in CC with bayonets against Space Marines and Power armour... lol
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Fri 22 Mar, 2013 1:06 am

Dark Riku wrote:Other races have access to 2 units only at the start as well.
And will generally need 3 of those starter units as well (usually a mix).
Sidenote: Ig even has the possibility to drop down lasturrets on the 5 power mark,
so technically IG has more options sooner than other races. :p



right, but baring SM all other races have at least one melee unit, functioning at least as a soft melee counter or a ranged counter if the enemy melee unit attacks your ranged units.

SM are completely different for IG though, they generally do less ranged damage but have much more health and more melee damage, making them better able to deal with early melee units. once they get a scout shotgun they do fine against anything that can be knocked back.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Caeltos » Fri 22 Mar, 2013 1:08 am

I highly doubt any real "dedicated" melee-addition roster unit to the IG early-game would be quite a beneficial and good addition to the IG in general. The natural aspect of common-build of guardsmen are still applied naturally, and IG does have good "melee"-counteraction measures by purely distruptive-means and all that jibberish. Their anti-melee is quite broad-but subtle in nature really. It's not strictly a counter-productive investment requirement, and is more forced on agression/distruption in an essence.

Sentinel, as it stands. Has quite good means to counter at least 1/2 melee-blobs. If the ability missfires, of course- it'll take it's toll. But there's no excuse to perhaps admit a mistake on it's useage that can misslead to a unappropiate engagement resulting in a faulty map control loss. I've seen this so many times, sometimes missused, and sometimes critical uses that pushes off key-centric units.

Even existing unit template-builds needs to be carefully thought of when implementing generally any new-units to the existing factions as well. For an example, that's why the Sternguard/Vanguard veterans were approached, since naturally the SM economy wouldn't re fully operational and functional to work with a unit of it's design and misc. to make up for a wide-variety of an build-order. Hench they got tied to the Tac/ASMs, since it was the only real way to counter-balance the fundemental desgin of the unit alongside with the race economical structure.

I fear the implementations suggestions as well, will onfortunately fall flat in this regard. However, as propositions are made, the intentions are good, and the thought is kind & well in theory. The practical play can be quite counter-productive as well. If we were to imagine a standard-issued GM(default) / sent, Guardsmen, builds - followed with certain propositions. You would have quite the flexible army capable of tackling with the most variant types, eventho you don't really pack alot of bucket into the units to be fully operational, compared to other races.

- This is also why IG was also one of the heaviest-fast techers in the game (from retail) since they lacked the backbone requirement to pool in resource-fundings into their early-game, so that's why the fast-chimera had also so much of a good-pay off. Since the economical structure and meta of the IG simply just rewarded fast-tech into T2 so heavily. Chaos also shared a similiar trait of this, prior to the latest-Chaos Heretic AC pricing going to 95/30 in retail. - Coupled with the faster-build time on the Bloodcrusher. The pricing adjustments made so the AC provided with enough agression to keep up with the momentum of the game, and reward with a fast-tech T2-crusher, since the general counter-measures would require alot more time, and the opposing factions require more economical pooling into their early-game.

What I'm trying to say is. IG doesn't really struggle with "melee" units, I honest to god, don't know who does really as an IG player. They really do have a good asset available to them, IG as a ground-up race is just not designed to have a "real" melee-unit apart from the Ogryns. Catachans are much more riskier to put into the fray, since you're more prone to losing models, and losing models with Catachan, in terms of quantity IS never a good thing, so people are more generally careful with them then in their retail-state, where it doesn't have that quite much of an impact on them. The Catachans are generally meant to be supportive units with their abilities. They are able to grant you excellent pressure play with Guardsmen/Sent play through smoke bombs (If anyone has missed it. It REDUCES INCOMING ranged damage by 80%, the OUTGOING was removed) - (Which btw, is getting changed in the next patch, lulz)

The pressure play-potentiality is downright excellent from Catachans. But they need to be utilized in this fashion to get the great pay-off. Or, otherwise resort to more conventional play, by placing booby traps, since they're not that taxing on your general upkeep anymore, so it's more beneficial to utilize it more often then not.

If it's a matter of "I don't want to get 4 squads in Tier 1 to do well" - then I'd suggest with another strategical approach to the matter. I advice to go with 2x power-nodes, gen-up both farms if possible, if not go with 3x1/2 farm build. If possible, even node in a frontier location to keep up the pressure, since power nodes generate you an extra-net of extra delay-time + power income as long as it is up. It's a matter of making the most use of it if you want to. But the fast-power node on the frontlines are great ways of stalling your opponent, which can be critical. It's also more useable with lower-sized armies. So it's more of a preference in terms of playstyle, which I think is more likely the case of inefficiency sometimes in some matchups and etc;

If anything, IG probably deserve some general cost-effiency tweaks, but that's more pricing adjustments more then anything. The IG economy can sometimes go abit wonky in their mid-game, but if they go for a fast-tech T3 from a good strong performance in T1, it can have great pay-off in late-game. It's more when IG decides to go with some T2 investments, they're more likely to not have the option to go T3 later-on, with an en-masse combination of T1/T2 army, since IG mid-game is quite power-dependant, coupled with some attrition-based losses that are more or less unavoidable.

For example,Tyrannids did not need DoM but they still can be beat even when they have it.


I'm sorry, what? :lol:
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Commissar Yarrick » Fri 22 Mar, 2013 1:35 am

For example,Tyrannids did not need DoM but they still can be beat even when they have it.


I'm sorry, what? :lol:[/quote]

I was explaining Riku that even if IG gets boost in any form, unit or upgrade, they can be beat. He gave me the image of him being scared of IG becoming immortal. That's why I brought DoM (Doom Of Malan'tai) as an example. Even so it is a huge blob killer, it and its player can be defeated.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Techpriest Drake » Fri 22 Mar, 2013 8:44 am

Caeltos wrote:I highly doubt any real "dedicated" melee-addition roster unit to the IG early-game would be quite a beneficial and good addition to the IG in general. The natural aspect of common-build of guardsmen are still applied naturally, and IG does have good "melee"-counteraction measures by purely distruptive-means and all that jibberish. Their anti-melee is quite broad-but subtle in nature really. It's not strictly a counter-productive investment requirement, and is more forced on agression/distruption in an essence.


Caeltos wrote:What I'm trying to say is. IG doesn't really struggle with "melee" units, I honest to god, don't know who does really as an IG player. They really do have a good asset available to them, IG as a ground-up race is just not designed to have a "real" melee-unit apart from the Ogryns. Catachans are much more riskier to put into the fray, since you're more prone to losing models, and losing models with Catachan, in terms of quantity IS never a good thing, so people are more generally careful with them then in their retail-state, where it doesn't have that quite much of an impact on them. The Catachans are generally meant to be supportive units with their abilities.



As a mainly IG player, i agree with this 100%
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Brn4meplz » Sat 13 Apr, 2013 10:26 am

Tics shit on me tier 1. Doom blast is probably the most annoying ability in the game. Sluggas are also cheap enough to get out in number while having shootas and neither of them need upgrades to fight everything IG has. Commander choice goes a long way.

I'd love to see a subcommander for IG. I think they could really flesh out some lineups with a priest or sanctioned psyker. The Join squad feature in dow1 would work excellently with IG and subcommanders. A priest could give passive damage/Melee resistance to to the squad, or disable ranged combat and add the dps to the Melee. A sanctioned Psyker could boost accuracy.

Ogryns could be too stupid to understand a priests rhetoric(putting brakes on that rape train)

Sanctioned psyker could be a caster, and the less energy he has when trying to cast an ability would be an inverse ratio to suffer a perils of the warp attack(summon a bloodletter or something)

When you break it down, Orks didn't need painboy(especially not nobz) but they got him and it adds a lot of flavour. They also got flash gitz(nobz and gitz in T3)
Nids got DoM, chaos got raptors(who do actually add a lot) people just like additional options. That's why stern guard and vanguard exist.

And being realistic, no sub commander will single handily defeat a proper push. Weird boy is probably the most dangerous but he can't do it alone.

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