[Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

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Commissar Yarrick
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[Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Commissar Yarrick » Mon 18 Mar, 2013 9:24 am

To help Imperial Guard last better in melee combat I had this idea to add Commissar Training squads to T1 of Imperial Guard army.

Cost: 400/30 (May also serve as GM squad upgrade)
Unit Composition: 1 Commissar instructor and 3-4 Cadets
Wargear: Commissar has a Bolt Pistol, and a Close Combat Weapon (chainsword as default). Cadets run with a Chainsword and a Lass Pistol.

Commissar Instructor uses normal commissar model while the Cadets use imperial officer model (Guardsman Sergerant (first GM leader upgrade)) until a proper CADET model is made, if we get lucky and get 3d modeler one day. Do keep in mind, that any other unit model can also be used to fill the cadet's outfit.

T2 upgrade: Commissar Instructor (Leader) with Power sword

Abilities: "Charge!" - Increased movement speed by the expense of damage, lasts for short period of time by expense of damage dealt for the duration. (Shorter than fleet of foot)
Execute: Commissar Leader can execute an allied unit to boost damage of target squad. However the target cannot retreat untill the duration has ended. (Commissar instructor required)

Other possibilities: May function as subcommander for t3

Narrative: Commissar Training Squads are groups of Cadet-Commissars, formed up into a fighting squad and led by a full Commissar into battle. These Cadets are then trained, under battlefield conditions, in how to live, fight and even die alongside the troops they are supposed to one day inspire and discipline. They are sent into the fiercest fighting, in which they are expected to show bravery and devotion enough to earn the respect afforded to them by standard troopers. Commissar Training Squads are highly motivated and pious fighting units and an Imperial Guard force accompanied by such a squad will consider itself destined for victory.

Purpose: Meant to disrupt with melee and soak damage from the enemy while the rest of the army may strike from the position of strength. Think of them as Hormagants for the imperial army which move as fast as average guardsman without the ability and deals fair damage with their chains words.

Why?: I wish to see more choice and variety in how to play and deal with threats. Because many people get forever tired of playing IG as massive ranged blob race, because they are so much more than that. Indeed the Devils and Ogryns serve this similar purpose but Devils to not excel in melee combat as they do in ranged rendering their powermelee nonexistent. Ogryns serve the disruption and heavy melee but why should those be the ONLY choice to deal with the enemy? IG needs something more to keep enemies at bay while the guardsmen do the fireworks.

Other idea: Maybe Giving Catachan Devils a Chainsword upgrade in t1 which removes the Catachan's shotgun and Grenade launcher and gives them Chainswords and Lass pistols. With this upgrade they gain reasonable normal melee damage + reasonable chance to deal knockback
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby HansMoleman » Mon 18 Mar, 2013 1:21 pm

Any melee unit that IG can in corporate into their army in T1 would be good. IG are pretty limited when it comes to their army composition and battle tactics. The heavy reliance on range units discourages alot of good melee action. Ogryns are great but there should be another option in t1 to help IG players to find new builds and strategies. I know catachans kind of play the melee role for IG in t1, but you rarely ever see them used with versatility.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby basi7 » Mon 18 Mar, 2013 1:55 pm

I'm not a really experienced player and I'm not good on balancing terms but i love full infantry with IG and i think that it would be great to have a melee counter other than the sentinel.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby basi7 » Mon 18 Mar, 2013 2:05 pm

If it would be a guardsmen upgrade, I think the choice of squad leader should define the role of the squad. The sergeant should be the ranged upgrade and the commissar should be the melée upgrade. As both upgrades give extra guardsmen, perhaps there could be a tier 2 upgrade which would give the remainder of the models the commissar currently gives.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Mon 18 Mar, 2013 4:04 pm

And maybe one upgrade in the Catachans to do they more effective in melee combat and less in ranged combat? We could give they more HP, less men, a melee charge...
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby XPhial » Mon 18 Mar, 2013 4:19 pm

Sents have disruption and cat devils are support units more than melee. To have a squad like this would be a proper counter to t1 melee units so long as its done right as to not disrupt the way the other units roles are. if nothing else I'd say its a good idea. I gotta say it would be nice to see how it goes having a commissar squad and I wonder what kind of abilities they would have :D
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 18 Mar, 2013 4:45 pm

I don't see the point for this squad. Ig already has catachans. That do power melee.

It would also not fit in the design (and fluff) of IG.
No normal human would want to go in close combat.
Since in the grim dark future almost any xenos bests a normal human in close combat.

Also melee isn't a counter for melee....
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby basi7 » Mon 18 Mar, 2013 5:22 pm

Your right of course, I meant an unit that could stand melee and draw attention from GM.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Commissar Yarrick » Mon 18 Mar, 2013 5:44 pm

Dark Riku wrote:I don't see the point for this squad. Ig already has catachans. That do power melee.


No normal human would want to go in close combat.
Since in the grim dark future almost any xenos bests a normal human in close combat.

Also melee isn't a counter for melee....


Ehem, if that is true the why do we see Commissar Lords and Iquisitors run into the nemy, hmm? They are normal people as well.

It is a melee counter if it can hold the melee off from ranged squads.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Commissar Yarrick » Mon 18 Mar, 2013 5:45 pm

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:And maybe one upgrade in the Catachans to do they more effective in melee combat and less in ranged combat? We could give they more HP, less men, a melee charge...


I see what you are going at. And if this new unit is not possible to made, at least Id like to see Devils get an upgrade that makes them more stronger in melee. Such as Chainsword upgrade.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Commissar Yarrick » Mon 18 Mar, 2013 6:09 pm

Or perhaps it is possible to make a powerlifer upgrade for Sentinel. However, that might need 3d modeling etc.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby MaxPower » Mon 18 Mar, 2013 6:45 pm

I tend to agree with riku, the IG already has catas that do disruption, have power melee weapons and can set up improvised explosive devices.

And you get a sent that also helps u from getting butchered in melee.

Take that into account with the IG heroes and you have such a good time dealing with melee units, hence I dont see why u would need another melee unit.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 18 Mar, 2013 6:46 pm

Commissar Yarrick wrote:Ehem, if that is true the why do we see Commissar Lords and Iquisitors run into the nemy, hmm? They are normal people as well.


Because this is still a game and fluff/logic < balance.
Catachans doing power melee for example makes no sense at all.
Doesn't mean the game sucks.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Commissar Yarrick » Mon 18 Mar, 2013 6:56 pm

Dark Riku wrote:
Commissar Yarrick wrote:Ehem, if that is true the why do we see Commissar Lords and Iquisitors run into the nemy, hmm? They are normal people as well.


Because this is still a game and fluff/logic < balance.
Catachans doing power melee for example makes no sense at all.
Doesn't mean the game sucks.


Then remove Catachan power melee and put it as an upgrade to them so they may deal more damage overall (power dmg or not) so they can fare better. I seek to have a melee unit OR an upgrade that help them withstand hand to hand combat in tier 1. Hormagants are a perfect example how to do it, wit thier adrenal glads they can handle almost anything in t1. So too Devils could get a chainsword upgrade that gives these weapons to them (X amount) to they may fight in melee instead of dying.

And as you said fluff/logic < balance. Imperial Guard needs something to fight fire with fire.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 18 Mar, 2013 7:07 pm

Commissar Yarrick wrote:I seek to have a melee unit that can withstand hand to hand combat as Hormagants do (T1). As no IG units can go toe to toe with other units as they would one another.

And as you said fluff/logic < balance. Imperial Guard needs something to fight fire with fire.


T1: Inq, Commy, catachans all are what you say.
Catachans especially when given a medpack by the LG.

T2: ogryns
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby HansMoleman » Mon 18 Mar, 2013 7:27 pm

Would be nice if IG had another choice for melee in t2 or t3 actually. Ogryns are the melee part of the army but they're purpose is to replace walkers. Every option you have for IG are all ranged units, with having only 1 dedicated melee unit. Its limiting and gets dull. I don't want another flavor of ice cream. I already have 13 flavors of it. Give me a cake instead.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Tue 19 Mar, 2013 2:08 am

catachans are fucking insane, especially for a t1 unit. they do 120 ranged and melee dps and have really fucking good abilities, even if smoke get's nerfed in 2.12. no buffs for catas unless they get nerfed first. also, they have a full upgrade tree.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Shas'el Doran'ro » Tue 19 Mar, 2013 1:58 pm

What about an over-all melee conversion upgrade for the Catachans for tier 2, conversing their shotguns into chainswords and a power sword for their sergeant, then remove the shotgun blast and grenade barrage of course.

It would take away their range capabilities but replace them with melee capabilities.

Of course it wouldn't be tier 1 but I think they already got decent enough melee by default with their power melee damage and all, but would give IG more melee options for tier 2.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Techpriest Drake » Tue 19 Mar, 2013 6:06 pm

Typed a lengthy post. Took me some time to type and now it's gone for the second fucking time. Here i go. Again.

We already have the Commissar Lord, LG squad Commissar and the Commissar for Guardsmen. Having another unit made out of Commissar models doesn't make sense. Everyone's gonna paint their arm Soviet-style and call them Commissar Army, not Imperial Guard.

If you want new Sub-commanders, try something else like this.


All available at T2 and can only field one of three at any time.

Sanctioned Psyker= Remodel of SM librarian. Also, would rather it shoot lightning bolts instead of a stupid Las-pistol like in DOW1. Abilities would be Smite, some DOW1 abilities or SM Librarian/Chaos Sorcerer/Inquisitor/Warlock/Farseer. Just make the abilities seem more Fluff-like. Upgrades prolly same as Librarian and Inquisitor.

Priest= Heavy melee, Infantry buff aura similar to Avatar and passive knockback charge. Temporary invulnerability ability and ability that temporarily makes all your nearby infantry go into melee, have higher speed and very high melee attack but at the cost of taking much more higher damage. Upgrades buff aura range and health. Also has T3 upgrade to turn Chainsword into Eviscerator.

Techpriest= Power axe, Plasma/Hell/Las-pistol, High armour value. Extremely high repair rate and can build multi-las turret at same cost. T2 Servo-skull upgrade improves sight range. T2 Orbs of the Omnissiah. T3 Skitarii/Gun servitor retinue.

Edit: Someone mentioned that IG doesn't have much tactical choices. Well, ta-dah.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Shas'el Doran'ro » Wed 20 Mar, 2013 1:50 am

@Techpriest Drake

What he just said. :D
"To divert from Tau'va is stray away from the one true path, and to stray from the one path is to walk into darkness and despair, only together, serving Tau'va can we prosper not only as an empire but as a race." -- Shas'el T'au Doran'ro
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Wed 20 Mar, 2013 2:12 am

IG have issues with melee in t1, especially early t1. early t1 all you have is the sentinel stomp, which is very good, but forces you to always buy the sentinel or buy an inordinate number of guardsman and get turrets down in the key places. it doesn't work as well with the LG because he's a ranged commander. later in t2 IG get catachans, who are great at countering melee and very good in general, and HWT, who follow all the usually setup team rules. in t2 they get ogryns and chimeras, the later countering most melee simply by not letting them engage the guardsmen and being reasonably fast while dealing good damage. commander choice has a huge effect on IG melee capabilities as well.

what i would personally like to see is catachan damage toned down so they're more balanced and fluffy, and something else that functioned as an early melee counter implemented. i have no good ideas though and wouldn't expect to see it happen even if i did.

EDIT: i'm more referring to heavy melee as well, melee_pvp is fine against standard infantry.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Commissar Yarrick » Wed 20 Mar, 2013 5:49 am

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:IG have issues with melee in t1, especially early t1. early t1 all you have is the sentinel stomp, which is very good, but forces you to always buy the sentinel or buy an inordinate number of guardsman and get turrets down in the key places. it doesn't work as well with the LG because he's a ranged commander. later in t2 IG get catachans, who are great at countering melee and very good in general, and HWT, who follow all the usually setup team rules. in t2 they get ogryns and chimeras, the later countering most melee simply by not letting them engage the guardsmen and being reasonably fast while dealing good damage. commander choice has a huge effect on IG melee capabilities as well.

what i would personally like to see is catachan damage toned down so they're more balanced and fluffy, and something else that functioned as an early melee counter implemented. i have no good ideas though and wouldn't expect to see it happen even if i did.


They are enough fragile as they are already.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Wed 20 Mar, 2013 7:28 am

i'm not proposing changes directly to their survivability.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby basi7 » Wed 20 Mar, 2013 4:37 pm

I think that there should be a soft melee upgrade for Guardsmen. My suggestion is the following:

Enhanced bayonets (65/20) T1 Guardsmen upgrade.
Gives ~10 dps regular melee to Guardsmen and gives them 15% melee resistance.
It should count as a weapon upgrade.

This would allow IG players to take their Guardsmen and soak up melee damage while the other squads can lay waste to the enemy. It would give a bit more durability against dedicated melee squads in T1 and thus help against them.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 20 Mar, 2013 4:50 pm

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:IG have issues with melee in t1, especially early t1. early t1 all you have is the sentinel stomp, which is very good, but forces you to always buy the sentinel or buy an inordinate number of guardsman and get turrets down in the key places.


How does that make em have issues with melee? °_O
Every other race also have to pay 15 power for a melee counter.
IG does not have problems countering melee at all.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Shas'el Doran'ro » Wed 20 Mar, 2013 9:31 pm

I like the idea that guardsmen could get a Bayonet improvement upgrade for melee, it always seemed odd to me that though they should be weak in melee, guardsmen are still very weak against any other ranged unit in melee though there is an Adamantium bayonet supposedly does barely any damage in melee (I'm talking of course tying up Shootas or Dire avengers in melee).
You could remove the power melee damage on the catachans and just give them regular melee, then give the Guardsmen such a melee upgrade giving them extra melee damage and melee damage resistance.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Commissar Yarrick » Wed 20 Mar, 2013 9:50 pm

Shas'el Doran'ro wrote:I like the idea that guardsmen could get a Bayonet improvement upgrade for melee, it always seemed odd to me that though they should be weak in melee, guardsmen are still very weak against any other ranged unit in melee though there is an Adamantium bayonet supposedly does barely any damage in melee (I'm talking of course tying up Shootas or Dire avengers in melee).
You could remove the power melee damage on the catachans and just give them regular melee, then give the Guardsmen such a melee upgrade giving them extra melee damage and melee damage resistance.


I like the sound of that
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Shas'el Doran'ro » Thu 21 Mar, 2013 1:45 am

Would be cool to see a bunch of guardsmen charging into melee with their bayonets alongside a Commissar Lord. (without being completely cut to pieces and doing no damage in melee)
"To divert from Tau'va is stray away from the one true path, and to stray from the one path is to walk into darkness and despair, only together, serving Tau'va can we prosper not only as an empire but as a race." -- Shas'el T'au Doran'ro
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Thu 21 Mar, 2013 3:01 am

Dark Riku wrote:
Nuclear Arbitor wrote:IG have issues with melee in t1, especially early t1. early t1 all you have is the sentinel stomp, which is very good, but forces you to always buy the sentinel or buy an inordinate number of guardsman and get turrets down in the key places.


How does that make em have issues with melee? °_O
Every other race also have to pay 15 power for a melee counter.
IG does not have problems countering melee at all.


sent is 15 power as well for stomp but my point is more that you either spam 3-4 GM and get some decent turrets up or you build a sent. if you don't do that you're going to have a very hard game at best for the first couple of minutes and quite likely lose the game once you get behind. two builds is really stale.

they also have issues against multiple melee squads backed by ranged support, especially chaos. the combination of grenadier tics, melee tics, nms, and raptors is really brutal. yes, it's a heavy t1 but it will scale well and is really hard to counter for IG. one the other hand single unit melee squads are shit for offense against IG because the stomp is such a hard counter. knockback, stun, and damage.
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Re: [Suggestion] Imperial guard Subcommander/meatshield.

Postby Dark Riku » Thu 21 Mar, 2013 4:16 pm

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:sent is 15 power as well for stomp

Exactly what I said...
(Adds more health resulting in more health than they have in retail.)

And strictly for humorous purpose, a Hammer quote: "Sent even more imba in Elite."
Which ofcource doesn't make sense with the tone down of gm repair and whatnot.

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:but my point is more that you either spam 3-4 GM and get some decent turrets up or you build a sent. if you don't do that you're going to have a very hard game at best for the first couple of minutes and quite likely lose the game once you get behind. two builds is really stale.


Other races have access to 2 units only at the start as well.
And will generally need 3 of those starter units as well (usually a mix).
Sidenote: Ig even has the possibility to drop down lasturrets on the 5 power mark,
so technically IG has more options sooner than other races. :p


Examples of those "common" starter builds:
scout,tac,scout
trooper,strike,trooper
slugga,shoota,shoota
gu,gu,shee
horma,terma,terma
tic,csm,tic(/csm)

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