Rate the new units !

[Caeltos]

I'm just mildly intrigued by how people have embraced the new unit implementations. So feel free to rate them in this thread, you can be simplistic by just leaving a number, or fairly elaborate so I know what the issue with unit is, and all that good stuff.

Example;
Doom of Malantai: 1/10
It's a Zoanthrope model is very bad kkthx plz new super sexy model plzgief?

[Indrid]

I will rate them based on model and design:

Poor
Decent
Good
EPIC

SPESS MAHREENZ

Sternguard Veterans

Model: Good
Solid effort really, as you'd expect Sternguard to look. Like most things could do with crisper textures up close but it's a mod for an essentially a four year old game so can't complain. Don't look out of place.

Design: Good
A perfect idea which just falls short of top score because of Kraken Bolts, which still seem to serve no purpose. Even with the range decrease everyone switches between Hellfire and Vengeance, with Dragonfire being an understandable niche. Would prefer Kraken to be anti-commander instead of Hellfire perhaps.

Whirlwind

Model: Decent
It's all as it should be but the textures of the launcher are flat, especially noticeable up close but not exactly an eye-sore in general play.

Design: Good
Nothing I would change.

Sparkly Eldar

Dire Avengers

Model: Decent
y u no team colour, dire avengah??

Design: N/A
(same as Guardians essentially)

Fire Dragons

Model: Decent
Just seem to generally lack detail, but serviceable.

Design: Good
Wouldn't change anything.

Dark Reapers

Model: Decent
I'm used to them now but thought them a little odd when I first started playing the mod, since WS animations don't seem to suit Reapers.

Design: Good
They're okay but would probably prefer them in T3 and adjusted accordingly. Eldar have a little too much pew pew to choose from in T2 (WS, WG, FD, DR) and it can sometimes seem saturated. Nothing inherently wrong with that though.

I WILL BRING TEN THOUSAND PLAGUES UPON YOU

Raptors

Model: EPIC
Best new model for Elite imo (though some of the comms run them close, dem Orks!)

Design: Good+
Pretty much the perfect implementation. Needed Warp Talons option for highest score.

Land Raider Phobos

Model: EPIC
Excellent.

Design: Good+
Very good and pretty fun to see chunks of HP disappearing from vehicles with it.

Chaos Terminators

Model: Good+
Very good, always thought their thighs looked too small but it is nitpicking

Design: Decent
I am gonna be harsh here. They have good weapon options and the demoralisation effect is cool.... I just feel that giving a unique Chaos Terminator for each Chaos pantheon was an awesome opportunity to inject some real flavour. Harshdrid.

Greenskins

Painboy

Model: Good
No complaints, some cool little details.

Design: Good+
I really like the little fella.

Flash Gitz

Model: Good
As above.

Design: Good
DERE IZ NEVAH ENUFF DAKKA

Immortal Hunger

Doom of Malan'tai

Model: Good
Cool!

Design: Good+
Has the potential for top score but a bit early to say. Really interesting though.

Humies

Artillery Spotter Squad

Model: Decent
Well it's three fellas with lasguns/hotshots. Suppose without an actual mortar there's not much else that could be done.

Design: Good
Cool! Still think they could do with a slight increase in T1 mortar shell damage as it seems to drop off pretty rapidly from centre.

Cadian Kasrkin

Model: Good
Solid enough.

Design: Good+
Really cool, pity I don't see them used more often.

[Lulgrim]

You have failed the Typing Gods

[Indrid]

Wut

[Nuclear Arbitor]

to many models; not enough designs

[Indrid]

Ha, that's what I get trying to type stuff on no sleep.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Too much "models" where you want to say "Design", Indrid. Dat copy-paste....

CHAOS

Chaos Raptors
Model:8.5/10.
It's great, but i think the armour texture is too matte, compared with the default armour texture. Not sure if intended. Maybe need more details and stuff in the legs, like the Warp Talons.

Design:8.5/10
It the first implementation they were meh. Now they are great. Still the energy management it's too hard, because the abilities uses too many energy.

Chaos Terminators
Model:8.5/10
The model is made by me, so they are simply awesome. Now seriously, i would use the CL Terminator armour Hip pieces insted teh loyal Terminators ones... but well, after dozens of tests they still remain static in the air. Fuck dat shit.

At least they are using the adequate chaotic stormbolter and not the loyal one. Still using the loyal StormBolter bullet animation instead the CL or the CSM bullet animation.

I'm trying to add some Lighting Claws lighting to the CT Powerfist, but even with the advice from Lulgrim i have 0 results.

Design:9/10
At the first they were meh. Now they are more balanced. The debuff is great. I still think they need a little more vanilla health.

Mark of Tzeentch Chaos Space Marines
Model:9.5/10
They are great, almost awesome. They could have a more Tzeetchian bolter for being perfect.

Mark of Khorne Chaos Space Marines
Model:3/10
Poor. Very poor. The helmet is awesome, and have high poly. But the rest of the armour it's the CSM Epic armour. They need more stuff: lots and lots of chains, skulls and Khorne symbols.

Something like this, made by me with parts of the Shuma's Khorne Lord.

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/846 ... 136B8A001/

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/846 ... 0D05DFBCD/

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/84694 ... 33BD8891A/

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/846 ... 0B172F4C3/

Better, isn't it?

Chaos Land Raider
Model:9.5/10
Awesome. I couldn't say more.

Design:9/10
His high damage compensate his relative low HP. Still i think needs a bit more HP.

More later.

[Spartan717]

Orks

Flash Gitz

Model 9/10
- Very good. I like all the accessories they are carrying.

Design 6/10
- I understand that they are powerful, but I think they are missing some abilities. Would be nice if they got some grenades, since they are carrying a lot of them on the model.


Painboy

Model 9/10
- Very good.

Design
- Very good.



Space Marines

Whirlwind

Model 7/10
- It's just recycled from the razor back. Perhaps some more decorations would help differentiate it.

Design 6/10
- I understand that its only meant to disrupt units, but I really don't find much point to this. Might need a slight damage buff.


Stern guard veteran squad

Model 9/10
- I like the different armor and decorations.

Design 9.5/10
- Very good. The versatility offered by this unit make it fun and essential in confrontations.


Vanguard veteran squad

Model 8/10
- I like the armor and decorations.

Design 7/10
- I think they need some abilities.



Chaos

Chaos terminators

Model 10/10
- Awesome.

Design 9/10
- I like all the upgrades


Chaos raptors

Model 10/10
- Very good

Design 8/10
- I think their jump pack ability should receive a nerf in energy cost as it restricts it from using abilities.


Land raider phobos

Model 10/10
- Awesome

Design 9/10
- Very good. Although a slight health buff would be nice.



Eldar

Dire avengers

Model 7/10
- Really want to change their colour scheme


Reapers

Model 7/10
- I think that their helmets look somewhat awkward, especially when compared to the one in the portrait.

Design 9/10
- Very good


Fire dragons

Model 6/10
- I just don't like the colour orange with them. Also their isn't much difference between standard models and the autarch ones. Maybe adding a few different colors would help.

Design 9/10
- Very good



Imperial Guard

Kasrikin

Model 8/10
- It looks good, but some of it looks recycled from guardsmen infantry squad members.

Design 5/10
- Not really much difference between kasrkin and stormies, besides their abilities. I'm not really a fan of them. I would rather have them replaced with another vehicle.


Artillery spotter squad

Model 7/10
- I like the vox operator model being used, however I'm not fond about the two kasrkin models following him. Rather prefer if they were two regular storm troopers or guardsmen.

Design 8/10
- I like his abilities. I think he is missing some weapon upgrades.



Grey Knights

Purifiers

Model 9/10
- Good

Design 6/10
- I think they are severely lacking in upgrades and abilities.


Paladins

Model 9/10
- Good

Design 7/10
- Upgrades are needed for them. I don't like the fact that the psycanon and incinerators have been used by a majority of other grey knight units. They need unique weapons that only termies can use. Also, I think they should have more health than regular terminators as well as more abilities which buff units around him.


Grey knight Terminators

Model 9/10
- Good

Design 8/10
- Similar to paladins, I think they should remove the incinerator and psycanon upgrades and replace them with unique terminator weapons.



Tyranids

Doom of malantai

Model 9/10
- Very Good

Design 8/10
- I like the abilities and the extra health compared to a zeonothrope. However, I don't like the fact that it can be knocked down.

[MaxPower]

Okay just copying some stuff from indrid and adding my own perspective.

THE EMPEROR'S FINEST

Sternguard Veterans

Model:Good
Yeah looks kinda neat, really like the Bolters with the drum magazines.

Design: Good
And as Indrid mentioned, I too think that the Kraken Bolts are somewhat lacking. Yes they are quite good, but Vengeance Rounds, though having a shorter range compared to Kraken Bolts, are able to hurt vehicles. Hence I prefer using Vengeance Rounds over Kraken Bolts. Hellfire + Dragonfire Rounds are good though.

But Kraken Bolts need to get some luv.

Vanguard Veterans

Model:Good
Yeah looks kinda neat.

Design: Decent
Okay they are a good upgrade if you are up against HI but, apart from that they are lacking abilities. Your average ASM squad (if you bought everything) have the following abilities, jump, merciless strike, melta nade and the flash nade. Compare that to the Vanguards only ability, the jump. So give them one or two abilities to I'd say. - Update: Well Indrid just told me that Vanguards still have the merciless strike ability...so okay they have 2 abilities but their av option (the fist) feels kinda underwhelming compared to the ASMs melta nade.

Whirlwind

Model: Decent
Meh, its okayish but It would be better if it would look something like this

Design: Decent, maybe even poor
Right now its, either way too expensive for what its doing or its not good enough.
Okay, I get it that we have the Hunter Killer missile, but that ability quite doesn't cut it. I'd say, either buff the damage for the normal shots a bit or make it at least hit something in a smaller radius. Because right now, more often then not you are not hitting anything.


Space Elves

Dire Avengers

Model: Decent
y u no team colour, dire avengah??

Design: N/A
(same as Guardians essentially)

Fire Dragons

Model: Decent
Just seem to generally lack detail, but serviceable.

Design: Good
Wouldn't change anything.

Dark Reapers

Model: Poor
Boy do those helmets look like shit, just give them the helmets from either the Seer Council or the Warpspider which look way better.

Design: Decent
They're okay but would probably prefer them in T3 and adjusted accordingly. Eldar have a little too much pew pew to choose from in T2 (WS, WG, FD, DR) and it can sometimes seem saturated. Nothing inherently wrong with that though.
And if they might stay in T2 pls, get either rid of the AV damage or let them switch the ammo type much like the Sternguard. I just hate the fact that their are so many units now that do decent damage to all units (Psycannons, Dark Reaper, Autocannons for Terminators and ofc the Sternguards [but you can't spam Sternguards and they have to switch their ammunition so i guess that is okay])


When the traitor's hand strikes, it strikes with the strength of a legion.

Raptors

Model: Good
Give them better textures and we are good

Design: Good
I guess.

Land Raider Phobos

Model: Good
Looks good.

Design: Good
Very good and pretty fun to see chunks of HP disappearing from vehicles with it.

Chaos Terminators

Model: Decent
Thighs are to tight, doesn't feel bulky enough.

Design: Good
I'm okay with the way they are now.


WEZ DA BIGGEST AN THE STRONGEST IN DA REGUN

Painboy

Model: Decent
Better textures, pls.

Design: Good
I really like the little fella.

Flash Gitz

Model: Decent
Better textures, pls.

Design: Decent
Orkz tend to say that their never is enough dakka. I tend to disagree.


The blasphemy of the Tyranids is such that only one solution is acceptable. Extermination.

Doom of Malan'tai

Model: Decent
Textures, again.

Design: !Talking about the current state! + not about what's to come! BULLSHIT
Right now the unit is too good for its own sake. It is the perfect counter for everything apart from vehicles (which will ofc die to the other nids running around), so either nerf the damage hard or if the damage stays the same turn it into a super unit and make it so that the tyranid player has to choose the Doom or the Swarmlord.


If you will not serve in combat, then you will serve on the firing line.

Artillery Spotter Squad

Model: Poor
The vox operator looks too big to be honest, so reduce that thingy in size and change the Kasrkin into normal line infantry

Design: Good
I'd say that they complement the Imperial Guards roster quite good.

Cadian Kasrkin

Model: Decent
Solid enough, nothing special though.

Design: Decent
I suppose they are quite good, but they don't excel at anything, I know they used to do insane amount of damage. But right now they feel like a slightly stronger stormtrooper squad. Btw. whatever happened to the idea that the Kasrkin should be an upgrade for normal guardsmen in t3, much like the Stern- and Vanguards are for SM right now.


Grey Knights

Purifiers

Model: Good
Yeah looks kinda goodish.

Design: Decent
I'd say that, even though they are good, they don't do anything special that strike squads cant do themselves.


Paladins

Model: Good
Better Textures, change the helmets to look more like the original Grey Knight Terminator helmets (the original ones look like a modern armet ) and we should be good to go.



Design: Good
Well I think that they are quite good and that they don't need even more health right now.


Grey knight Terminators

Model: Good
Again, better textures and you might wanna change the looks of the helmets (just take a look at the helmets from the miniatures - they look way more like an armet to me, compared to the ones the elite models are using)

Design: Good
Nothing else to say, good unit, with some good abilities.

[Sneery_Thug]

Mark of Khorne Chaos Space Marines
Model:3/10
Poor. Very poor. The helmet is awesome, and have high poly. But the rest of the armour it's the CSM Epic armour. They need more stuff: lots and lots of chains, skulls and Khorne symbols.

Something like this, made by me with parts of the Shuma's Khorne Lord.

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/846 ... 136B8A001/

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/846 ... 0D05DFBCD/

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/84694 ... 33BD8891A/

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/846 ... 0B172F4C3/

Better, isn't it?

Agree! +1. Models are not thaaat poor, but those on the pictures are better.

[Codex]

Honestly, I don't care about aesthetics THAT much, so even though I like stuff to be pretty and such I'll leave that to the others to cover. What I will cover though is Design (In my terminology meaning its conception) and Implementation (i.e. Balance state, current place in the metagame).

This is going to be a long post. Might split it into different posts as I've already spent so long on just 2 races.

Space Marines:

Sternguard Veterans

Design: Excellent idea overall, a very nice way to make Tacticals scale into the late game, and considering it's a T2 upgrade the loss of levels through this upgrade is completely negligible.

Implementation: Pretty much have to agree with Indrid, we need to find some way to make Krakens relevant. I think Hellfire rounds are a little bit too powerful right now, in particular its anti-commander ability. I think my problem with it is that it is based off the Plague Champ effect, but that was only ever 1 bolter. When you have 4 bolters with DOT focus firing a single model that DOT really stacks up, and they are supremely good at acquiring levels due to how powerful Hellfire is.

Vanguard Veterans

Design: I think there's a key difference between Sternguard and Vanguard, and that is that Vanguard comes in T3. For this reason I think it will be difficult to find a way to make Vanguards relevant out of the gate, without becoming ridonkulous with levels.

Implementation: I should first state that vanguards don't fit my playstyle at all, which is geared towards getting aggressive early and getting levels on my Space Marines. For that reason the loss of levels can be particularly debilitating. That said, with 2.2, we're going to see a health buff for the Vanguards, which I think if not sufficient was at the very least necessary. Because Vanguards in their current state (and perhaps even after the hp buff) really require levels to perform well in the mid-late game, it makes the most sense to buy it early in T3 rather than later.

Considering the effect of upkeep, I think that this upgrade makes the most sense when the Space Marine has fast teched, making it the case that he neither has levels to lose nor is it so late in the game that ASM are relatively irrelevant anyway. However, the upgrade isn't particularly cheap, and when people fast tech to T3 they usually want to bring out something which packs a bit more punch a little more quickly e.g. Preds or Terminators. More importantly by grabbing another unit you add to your unit count which is very important to the late game. I can't think of many cases where I would prefer to buy Vanguard rather than saving up for a T3 unit if I had teched.

In conclusion, I think that as an upgrade in T3 for a T1 unit, it's difficult to balance if they can gain levels. In their current state, I don't believe they have a cost-efficient role in the SM lineup, especially considering the goodies that SM has in T3.

Whirlwind

Design: Great conception, I think. A niche unit that has a place in the SM roster.

Implementation: I think the whirlwind needs tweaks. Overall it has utility, but in the end we have to consider it with the Dreadnought, Razorback and T3 in mind. Razorback has tremendous utility, and Dread is just a dread i.e. frickin awesome. I think it needs a slight buff. Hunter killer missile is a nice ability.

Eldar:

Dire Avengers

Design: I blame Relic for everything that is wrong with this unit.

Implementation: Trolololol

(I obviously have nothing to add on DA so I'm just trolling).

Banshees

Aspect of Fleet
Design: More choice is always good (as long as it fills a role). It's nice to see the leap over cover animation back in the game.

Implementation: I don't know if it's hard coded into the game, but is there a way to modify the behaviour a little bit? Banshees occasionally go *facepalm* and will leap over the same cover back and forth a couple of times before going somewhere.

Dark Reapers

Design: Incredibly necessary for the Eldar lineup, considering how useful plasma damage is against certain races. Excellent addition.

Implementation: I really like the state that they're in. Excellent fire support, but cannot be spammed all too effectively. They probably will need tweaking as the game and metagame develops, but at the same time they've got a good place.

Brightlance upgrade=> Shuriken Cannon

Design: Brilliant idea to make the Shuriken Cannon more relevant in the late game.

Implementation: Fantastic. Ability may be OP though, it literally allows you to punch through Angels of Death. At the very least it's unclear why the Brightlance should have anti-infantry relevance when the other setup team AV upgrades lack it.

Fire Dragons:

Design: Nice to add another AV unit for Eldar, it makes them far less one-dimensional in the mid-game.

Implementation: Good. I think the main problem I have with them is that their mobility ability is also their offensive ability. I would prefer them to be on separate abilities, which is consistent with the Eldar lineup (i.e. Fleet of Foot+ an ability that buffs that offensive potential).

[Nuclear Arbitor]

personally i'd really like to see all units be useful against infantry. one way would be to allow setup teams to hit infantry (they'd function as a sniper), but adding abilities works too. i strongly dislike units that become useless once they kill something.

[Codex]

I'd be very wary of implementing that change though. As it stands, when it hits, a Missile from a tac will one-shot an unupgraded warrior (and by extension a tac model since they are virtually identical), think about the repercussions of having that hit reliably in a fight.

[FiSH]

isn't the beam scorch ability added because brightlance now costs power? i mean, shuriken upgrading to brightlance is a welcome change, but brightlance by itself as an AV option is lacking compared to other factions and thus the extra love with the debuff. i don't think other av squads should get such love (except tankbustas, which i think are at a good spot with the barrage KB)

[Torpid]

isn't the beam scorch ability added because brightlance now costs power? i mean, shuriken upgrading to brightlance is a welcome change, but brightlance by itself as an AV option is lacking compared to other factions and thus the extra love with the debuff. i don't think other av squads should get such love (except tankbustas, which i think are at a good spot with the barrage KB)

Maybe that's a potential justification, but it's still a bad one because brightlances should have cost power in the first place. I also really don't like the AI-enabled AV squads, it gives them too much versatility and just doesn't suit the game despite being more realistic.

[FiSH]

why do you think brightlance should have power cost? all hard AV units that don't have snare don't have power cost.

[Torpid]

why do you think brightlance should have power cost? all hard AV units that don't have snare don't have power cost.

Lootas do. Brightlance/lootas still should cost power without their snare because they do much higher dps than the snaring AV teams, it balances it out.

[FiSH]

oops, forgot about lootas.
lootas cost power because they do very high dps, very high burst damage (burst damage is always better than none-burst damage) and can infiltrate. lootas > brightlance as far as av goes, but of course we have to consider army compositions and how orks can struggle with finishing off vehicles, so it makes sense that lootas are better.

the point you bring about the difference in the dps of the av squad is not the full story. brightlance, without proper snaring support, cannot land as many hits as other snaring squads, or infiltrating lootas. it makes sense that it was cheap in retail, and now that it has power cost, it should definitely have some more things going for it. as for the debuffing ability, it may be too powerful, but not giving it anything but its av weapon is making it too weak.

hell, just comparing the dps doesn't make sense anyways, how do you explain the extremely powerful/various av options that IG has with their crazy powerful lascannon? their lascannon is the best, their storms are possibly the best av in the game, the sent is a good av/ai, all heroes have av options. yeap, i'm gonna stick with brightlance needs some love.

[Dark Riku]

why do you think brightlance should have power cost? all hard AV units that don't have snare don't have power cost.

A missile launcher is power free now?
Interesting. :p

(I guess you aren't counting tanks and dreads themselves
and T3 units like heavy melee nobs)

[FiSH]

missile launcher is a generalist, not just av, which is why i didn't count them. by av i meant a specialized squad that only does av.
i'm also not counting vehicles with av options, because they are not av squads, and thus there isn't much point comparing them to brightlance.

[Dark Riku]

How is a missile launcher generalist? °_O
It cuts down the anti-infantry damage to 2/3 of the squad...
They become hard av at that point.

By that logic the brightlance is anti-infantry too, since it acts like 3 gaurdian models + brightlance. They do the same damage as the DA models.

[Retaliation]

oops, forgot about lootas.
hell, just comparing the dps doesn't make sense anyways, how do you explain the extremely powerful/various av options that IG has with their crazy powerful lascannon? their lascannon is the best, their storms are possibly the best av in the game, the sent is a good av/ai, all heroes have av options. yeap, i'm gonna stick with brightlance needs some love.

Because of how the factions fit together. Imperial guard is the armor superiority faction. If you don't notice the first anti tank vehicle is the ML sent, while the second is the Leman Russ. Neither of which are great against t2 vehicles, so their infantry squads are REALLY good at killing vehicles. After all to have armor superiority you must be denying the enemy their armor.

Plus the brightlance has advantages in soft numbers. It's faster, the cannon itself is HI, has better setup/teardown times, and the supression team weapon is better hands down (it doesn't reload). There's a reason double shuriken platforms are more common than double HWT. You could also argue that eldar have a better ability to support their setup team.

[Torpid]

How is a missile launcher generalist? °_O
It cuts down the anti-infantry damage to 2/3 of the squad...
They become hard av at that point.

By that logic the brightlance is anti-infantry too, since it acts like 3 gaurdian models + brightlance. They do the same damage as the DA models.

Well no because the effective range of the brightlance is different from the shuriken catapult unlike the ranges of the bolter and missle launcher. Therefore the AI features of the missle tacs actually get some usage whereas those of the brightlance rarely do. Regardless we're all being being ridiculously pedantic here.

When musing about units you must look at their position in the current meta, not how they alone function. You see brightlances are an eldar weapon team. Rangers provide fantastic sight radiuses for the brightlance to operate, then you have guardian shields, banshees which are arguably some of the best counter-jump squad units out there, guide, distort field, webways and their buffs, cloak of shadows, farsight, crack shot, haywire grenades etc. Eldar have more ways than other races to buff their AV team's potency. I don't feel the brightlance is particularly outshone by the other AV set up teams on the whole, except the IG lascannon which is by far the best due to its suppression capabilities being nigh non existent.

Also the req free retail brightlance was both a blessing and a curse. Of course it was great when you had no shurikens or only one and wanted the suppression, but then again sometimes you wanted to get rid of that suppression rather than buying a new squad because it was effectively countered already. The brightlance upgrade also makes 2x SCP builds a lot more viable. It's a blessing and a curse. It doesn't change much except stabilise things.

[Codex]

Well, I said it was unclear why there was a discrepancy. Regardless, I think the debuff is too much. It punches through things like warriors so hard.

[FiSH]

@Riku
because you can purchase another weapon, whereas a brightlance is forever a brightlance.

@Retaliation
i don't want to discuss IG here, i just threw mentioned there because torpid started saying that brightlance should have power cost since they do the most dps, when IG lascannon does almost as much dps, while also snaring, and being unable to be knocked down. i understand that they have vehicle superiority.

the cannon itself is HI, so what? havoks are all HI, devs are HI. in any case, please elaborate on how this is a good thing rather than just stating the fact.

it's faster -> yes. just like all other eldar units. just like all eldar units, it's also more fragile, being infantry (compared to HI of havoks/devs), lacking infiltration or the bubble shield. all in all, it deserves its slightly higher speed.

has better setup/teardown times -> false. except for havok setup (5 vs 4 seconds) but havoks are well supported with tic play anyways, IG las actually sets up faster.

it doesn't reload -> false. when the weapons team is suppressed, they shoot slower, which is proof that they reload.

the reason why you see 2 platforms isn't really because eldar has better platforms, it's just the meta - many people tend to go with jump troops against eldar to close the distance quick. caeltos is even known for his double autocannon havok build.
saying that eldar are better at supporting their setup team is just false. all factions are fine at supporting their setup teams. scout shotgun blast, sent stomp/cata shotgun, doomblast, and big shoota suppression are all ways to get them out of trouble. sorry mate, but it's hard to take you seriously when you get so many facts wrong.

@codex
while i think they need something other than just AV, the numbers may need adjusting.

EDIT: apparently havok's lascannon got a buff in elite compared to retail, it also sets up in 4 seconds now. so brightlance does not setup faster than anything.

[Dark Riku]

@Riku
because you can purchase another weapon, whereas a brightlance is forever a brightlance.

Ow yeah cuz those aren't expensive at all.
A BL can be your Doom casting platform after the vehicle went down...

it's faster -> yes. just like all other eldar units. just like all eldar units, it's also more fragile, being infantry (compared to HI of havoks/devs), lacking infiltration or the bubble shield. all in all, it deserves its slightly higher speed.

How are they more fragile than HI? That totally depends on what squad is after them. Shes will more likely wipe HI models than infantry models for example.

Where does the infiltration come from? Unless you are talking about the CS which is ONE hero, while ALL Eldar heroes have access to holo fields.

but it's hard to take you seriously when you get so many facts wrong.

[Retaliation]

@fish

That's what happens when you're forced to rely on the outdated retail wiki because there are no stats for the races your comparing .

I did know you didn't want to discuss IG though. My point was that there are variations within races that are acceptable because of how the race as a whole is. In the case of the brightlance you can use that argument for or against scorch shot, but using the HWT as a reason for isn't all that convincing. Different factions have different needs. Especially since the lack of snare is easily made up by the fact that eldar has the very rare privilege of the best snares in the game. They're just not on their setup team.

The HI infantry thing was actually pretty relevant though. HWTs are not. The lead model on eldar setups is HI so it's taking the brunt of fire, and since the army is mostly infantry plasma is going to be somewhat less of a must have. Basically it means the setup team is going to be more durable than health alone suggests. Probably more durable than the slightly higher health HWT.

[FiSH]

@riku
cmon, you're just being pedantic and just nit picking every single little thing. i was referring to lootas, obviously. what else would make sense after i listed dev, havok, and bubble shield (IG HWT, obviously). i kid you not, i was even thinking about writing all this power melee/piercing stuff, but didn't because i didn't want to ramble too much. you also claim that i wrote wrong facts. there is a difference between oversight and actually getting your facts wrong - forgetting something is more understandable.

@retaliation
ok, fair point about HI. at least IG has the bubble shield and lootas have infiltration so all is fair good in the front model taking fire, i'd say.

[Codex]

Conversely it also means shuriplats are more vulnerable to getting wiped by a single grenade if the setup team is hurt at all, since it takes double damage on the HI model and spreads to the other models as well.

[Torpid]

@riku
cmon, you're just being pedantic and just nit picking every single little thing. i was referring to lootas, obviously. what else would make sense after i listed dev, havok, and bubble shield (IG HWT, obviously). i kid you not, i was even thinking about writing all this power melee/piercing stuff, but didn't because i didn't want to ramble too much. you also claim that i wrote wrong facts. there is a difference between oversight and actually getting your facts wrong - forgetting something is more understandable.

@retaliation
ok, fair point about HI. at least IG has the bubble shield and lootas have infiltration so all is fair good in the front model taking fire, i'd say.

Forgetting something and misunderstanding in my eyes is of little difference except that misunderstanding replicates itself later on and so is the worse of the two, either way both are wrong and not useful to have in a discussion.

Nonetheless, eldar are undoubtedly better at supporting their temas than other races for aforementioned reasons I listed. Obviously every race has their way of doing this too, but eldar just does it better. There really is no argument to suggest otherwise, and this alone compensates for their comparative weakness. Although that comparative weakness isn't even there really because they do move quicker than other teams, they do still have very respectable damage and set-up/tear down times and as a suppression unit they are comparatively fantastic. Note how the best suppression team becomes the worst AV team and the worst suppression team becomes the best AV team (SCP/HWT). So, like I said before, I don't think brightlance should be power free, I think that was a very strange choice by relic and I also don't see why they deserve this AI utility they currently offer.