Homogenizing buffs to abilities

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Thibix Magnus
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Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Thibix Magnus » Sat 17 Mar, 2018 12:54 pm

So, something I might have asked already... what would you guys think about homogenizing how buffs affect damage abilities ? At the moment it seems you have to learn how every single buffs affects or not a damage ability. For example, execution from Lord Commissar affects most damage abilities while guide in several instances doesn't. Beyond those two I just end up having no idea. In the end you never know. Which in the heat of the moment is always a bet when an idea comes to you, or e.g. in order to estimate if you should retreat immediately a vehicle when you see a potential combo approaching. I just discovered that execution doubles the melta grenade damage...

So what do you think, about deciding once and for all that buffs (or nerfs) ALWAYS or NEVER affect damage abilities ? Is it too hard coded to be worth the effort ? Do you guys know by heart every single possibility ?

I think it is also a deterrent for mid-level players, not being able to improvise based on a robust rule, so only a huge number of hours leads you to know the combinations of what you can do or what to anticipate.
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Sun 18 Mar, 2018 12:31 am

Go to the Codex And quickly read the description for each ability in the game. Don't go into specifics or look at numbers. Just get the basic information as fast as possible. Do it again right after the first time. Now do it once a day for a week after. Then once a week only.

That is the best way of learning if you're having trouble memorizing all the things. Hope this helps.

Thrown abilities such as grenades or melta bombs count as ranged btw.
Thibix Magnus
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Thibix Magnus » Sun 18 Mar, 2018 11:00 am

eem there might be something extremely simple I've been missing, how do you know from the codex what affects what ? Where can I find e.g. that for the emperor affects smite but guide doesn't (afaik) affect psychic storm ?
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Sun 18 Mar, 2018 6:48 pm

For The Emperor
Increases the damage output of a squad by 25% for 20 seconds. Cooldown 50 seconds

Why would it not work on Smite? You put it on the Librarian and it does more damage like it says it does.

I don't know if there are things in other races that don't work. I just play FC nowadays and I buff things all the time with no problem.
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Thibix Magnus » Sun 18 Mar, 2018 7:37 pm

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:For The Emperor
Increases the damage output of a squad by 25% for 20 seconds. Cooldown 50 seconds

Why would it not work on Smite? You put it on the Librarian and it does more damage like it says it does.

I don't know if there are things in other races that don't work. I just play FC nowadays and I buff things all the time with no problem.


that's precisely what I mean, in several other instances it doesn't work like that while the syntax is the same, like guide on psychic storm.
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Torpid
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Torpid » Sun 18 Mar, 2018 8:51 pm

Well psychic storm does power melee damage.

It's one of the problems of having a lot of damage types. Sure it is hard to remember but then it adds a lot of combat variety if not depth.

Can't really go and change all that now though. That's changing game fundamentals. It would force players who have played with such damage types for 5k hours to have to re-learn them for really no good reason other than making the game simpler...
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Thibix Magnus » Sun 18 Mar, 2018 11:49 pm

Torpid wrote:Well psychic storm does power melee damage.

It's one of the problems of having a lot of damage types. Sure it is hard to remember but then it adds a lot of combat variety if not depth.

Can't really go and change all that now though. That's changing game fundamentals. It would force players who have played with such damage types for 5k hours to have to re-learn them for really no good reason other than making the game simpler...


sure, but wait just to understand, the fact that it's power melee means guide can't affect it ? I don't get the damage type issue...
Atlas

Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Atlas » Mon 19 Mar, 2018 12:11 am

Personally, I think we could probably collapse the damage types a little bit. Still, it's nice to have them if you need them.
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Torpid » Mon 19 Mar, 2018 12:35 am

Thibix Magnus wrote:
Torpid wrote:Well psychic storm does power melee damage.

It's one of the problems of having a lot of damage types. Sure it is hard to remember but then it adds a lot of combat variety if not depth.

Can't really go and change all that now though. That's changing game fundamentals. It would force players who have played with such damage types for 5k hours to have to re-learn them for really no good reason other than making the game simpler...


sure, but wait just to understand, the fact that it's power melee means guide can't affect it ? I don't get the damage type issue...


Nvm I was thinking guide only buffed ranged damage, but of course it doesn't since it buffs shee damage. I don't know why guide wouldn't buff psychic storm damage. In fact, that sounds like a bug. A bug I wouldn't change though as that would be a pretty horrible combo. I think psychic storm does too much damage as it is. FS is a support hero not an offensive spellcaster.
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Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Mon 19 Mar, 2018 1:15 am

Collapse it too much and you'll get stupid stuff like in DoW 3 where Dreads and Preds did no damage in infantry.
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby LOCALgHOST » Mon 19 Mar, 2018 7:37 am

Leave the damage types alone plz. Or it won't be DoW2 anymore.
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Thibix Magnus » Mon 19 Mar, 2018 8:36 am

Torpid wrote:
Thibix Magnus wrote:
Torpid wrote:Well psychic storm does power melee damage.

It's one of the problems of having a lot of damage types. Sure it is hard to remember but then it adds a lot of combat variety if not depth.

Can't really go and change all that now though. That's changing game fundamentals. It would force players who have played with such damage types for 5k hours to have to re-learn them for really no good reason other than making the game simpler...


sure, but wait just to understand, the fact that it's power melee means guide can't affect it ? I don't get the damage type issue...


Nvm I was thinking guide only buffed ranged damage, but of course it doesn't since it buffs shee damage. I don't know why guide wouldn't buff psychic storm damage. In fact, that sounds like a bug. A bug I wouldn't change though as that would be a pretty horrible combo. I think psychic storm does too much damage as it is. FS is a support hero not an offensive spellcaster.


Guide doesn't affect levitate or mind war either iirc, I 'm not even sure about plasma grenades, I thought this happened randomly but maybe it's only guide ? I don't know about more dakka into rokkit barrage, catalyst+synapse+focused warp blast, I gave up trying or labbing... I guess it's safe to assume abilities should ALWAYS be affected by buffs then, unless bugged? I missed an entire world there ^^

Then of course the balance issues is another discussion. I don't mind guide specifically not affecting FS abilities (or psychic storm only) as an explicit rule if it's considered necessary, but then it would still be a bug if guide doesn't affect doom bolts in teams... though I find LC inspire+melta grenade or smite+FTE quite juicy too
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Mon 19 Mar, 2018 9:26 am

Seems like Guide stands somewhat apart from the others. Interesting question you are asking here.

Fun fact: You can guide Noxious Clouds. 8-)
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Thibix Magnus » Mon 19 Mar, 2018 11:36 am

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Fun fact: You can guide Noxious Clouds. 8-)


yeah yeah I know you can manually guide it.

oh wait whaaaat ?
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Mon 19 Mar, 2018 6:56 pm

Smite+FTE isn't really worth it anymore as it doesn't one shot Tics like it used to. If you buff it up with a few Battle Cry swings or Banner and then FTE it would be worth it.
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Myrdal » Mon 19 Mar, 2018 8:24 pm

Thibix Magnus wrote:
Adeptus Noobus wrote:Fun fact: You can guide Noxious Clouds. 8-)


yeah yeah I know you can manually guide it.

oh wait whaaaat ?

You can guide the cloud it but it's a waste and does nothing, just like it is on farseer for most of her abilities. Guide isn't bugged, but rather the abilities like psychic storm along with many, many more were implemented this way. They simply do fixed amount of damage regardless. Sadly.
Iirc SM is in a much better spot, most of their abilities actually benefit from such damage buffs. That is good because they have a ton of it.

How can you tell ability x benefits? Codex, and certainly tooltips will not help. Playtime/testing is your best bet. That or inspect game files but you need some understanding of the internals to make any assumptions worth a damn. And they could still turn out wrong even with decent knowledge (eg I could be way off on noxious cloud).

Would it be possible to fix these abilities? Sure. Can we actually do it? No, I don't think any modders are willing. In fact, I don't think there are any modders.
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Thibix Magnus » Mon 19 Mar, 2018 10:54 pm

Myrdal wrote:Would it be possible to fix these abilities? Sure. Can we actually do it? No, I don't think any modders are willing. In fact, I don't think there are any modders.


very much fair enough :)

maybe we could have a thread just to share whenever we find a combo doesn't work ? At some point it could just be added to the tooltips, if you guys find it worth it of course.
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Torpid » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 11:04 pm

Thibix Magnus wrote:
Myrdal wrote:Would it be possible to fix these abilities? Sure. Can we actually do it? No, I don't think any modders are willing. In fact, I don't think there are any modders.


very much fair enough :)

maybe we could have a thread just to share whenever we find a combo doesn't work ? At some point it could just be added to the tooltips, if you guys find it worth it of course.


How could you put things like that on a tooltip? It's way too extensive.
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Wed 21 Mar, 2018 12:12 am

Does that mean that all flat value dmg abilities can not be buffed? I am thinking High Powered Shot, Full Auto, Smite deal fixed amount of dmg....
It hunk it’s more of a balance issue that the FS can not buff herself. Imagine Guide + Doom + Psychic Storm....
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Thu 22 Mar, 2018 1:10 pm

Also @Paranoid:
I strongly disagree with you on FTE + Smite. Don’t forget that he inspires on kill. By my reckoning killing even 3 Tic models is worth it as it lowers received suppression by 30% and buffs dmg by 15%. Now I am not 100% sure about the cooldown of the on-kill inspiration but if it has none, that is quite significant.
He also deals a ton of spike dmg to heavy infantry units since they receive bonus damage.
It is a fantastic combo still.
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Dark Riku » Thu 22 Mar, 2018 5:02 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Also @Paranoid:
I strongly disagree with you on FTE + Smite. Don’t forget that he inspires on kill. By my reckoning killing even 3 Tic models is worth it as it lowers received suppression by 30% and buffs dmg by 15%. Now I am not 100% sure about the cooldown of the on-kill inspiration but if it has none, that is quite significant.
He also deals a ton of spike dmg to heavy infantry units since they receive bonus damage.
It is a fantastic combo still.
He does not inspire with smite :)
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Myrdal » Sun 25 Mar, 2018 7:02 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Does that mean that all flat value dmg abilities can not be buffed?

No.
Adeptus Noobus wrote:I am thinking High Powered Shot, Full Auto, Smite deal fixed amount of dmg....

No, these can be buffed.
Adeptus Noobus wrote:It hunk it’s more of a balance issue that the FS can not buff herself. Imagine Guide + Doom + Psychic Storm....

FS can ofc buff herself, this is not specific to FS. This is about a category of abilities across all races that simply do not benefit from buffs.
It's not a balance issue, it's a code-ain't-working-for-shit issue.

PS doom is a debuff and should work fine with abilities like PS.
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Tue 27 Mar, 2018 3:04 am

But can she guide her Mindwar and Psychic Storm or not? This is getting confusing.
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Nurland » Tue 27 Mar, 2018 7:23 pm

No she can't guide PS, not sure about Mind Whore.
#noobcodex
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Myrdal » Tue 27 Mar, 2018 9:26 pm

That's a negative on Mind Fart(seer).... So nurland, how far do you reckon I'd go as a comedian. Pretty damn far right?
Anyway, don't take our word for it adopted noobus. Test it out yourself.
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Nurland » Wed 28 Mar, 2018 5:00 pm

I reckon you would have around the same chances making it as a comedian as I. Which is surprising as I havent encountered negative percentage before when talking about chances.
#noobcodex
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Atlas » Thu 29 Mar, 2018 3:29 am

Maybe if you guys did a Key and Peele kind of routine with a puppet on top.
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Re: Homogenizing buffs to abilities

Postby Thibix Magnus » Mon 02 Apr, 2018 9:37 am

Torpid wrote:
Thibix Magnus wrote:
Myrdal wrote:Would it be possible to fix these abilities? Sure. Can we actually do it? No, I don't think any modders are willing. In fact, I don't think there are any modders.


very much fair enough :)

maybe we could have a thread just to share whenever we find a combo doesn't work ? At some point it could just be added to the tooltips, if you guys find it worth it of course.


How could you put things like that on a tooltip? It's way too extensive.


well it's by no means an emergency, particularly when talking about others' work... but maybe there is a way to do it within reasonable boundaries. Abilities that have this fixed damage implementation could just in their tooltip add an "unmodifiable" or "fixed" adjective. Instead of "deals 40 heavy melee damage every second", just "deals 40 unmodifiable/fixed heavy melee damage every 2 seconds" seems a manageable space consumption. Then it's up to players and check the codex, where at some point a new entry can give more details about this unmodifiable trait, like the fact that you can't buff it but you can still debuff the target.

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