Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

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Antandron
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Antandron » Sat 27 Jan, 2018 4:36 pm

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Psycho
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Psycho » Sat 27 Jan, 2018 4:42 pm

If it doesn't make that much of a difference, there's no point in implementing it. If it makes that much of a difference, it'd be stupid to implement it. You're asking "why not" to the change when you should be asking yourself "why", and lore arguments don't count.
Antandron
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Antandron » Sat 27 Jan, 2018 5:18 pm

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Forestradio
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Forestradio » Sat 27 Jan, 2018 5:30 pm

no
fp are fine as they are, there is just no need to tinker with cost or speed or damage to satisfy any lore

speed buffs to units that are long-range anti-all platforms are a gigantic change for what should be obvious reasons

if you want a shield or speed buff, a good start would be to do the following:
outline exactly what you want in terms of the change
talk about why the unit needs the change (and no lore reasons don't count)
what matchups will be changed and how...

replays are also useful

i can tell you there is an approximately 0% chance of fp getting a shield, and a 0.01% chance of it getting a speed buff. the probability becomes 0% for the speed buff for the upcoming patch
Atlas

Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Atlas » Sat 27 Jan, 2018 7:08 pm

To also directly answer the question, a flat speed buff would be problematic for fire prisms because they would then be able to keep range with tanks and potentially outrun other tank killers. This results in them being overly problematic to combat.

A rework on fire prisms and falcons would require adjustments to other areas of their performance to compensate for an increase in their speed. I suggested their range earlier for example.
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Deuce Bigalow
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Deuce Bigalow » Sat 27 Jan, 2018 7:19 pm

If one willfully makes change(s), even one thought to be "innocent" or inconsequential, inevitably there arise situations where the change(s) have unintended consequences. This is not a problem if you had your own mod and were the only one affected. But this is a community and changes that do not have the weight of consensus do not belong in mainstream iterations. The fact that there is considerable debate already and intuitively spells "no", however kudos for the sake of discussion.

The relationship between the delicacy/range/power of the Fire Prism has been as it is for quite some time. The cheapening of rangers has provided and indirect yet significant buff to Fire Prism's survivability. If in spite of this and excellent control opportunities by means of weapons teams, the FP's opponent has managed to gain an assault/stealth position that threatens the Fire Prism, it usually and should spell destruction. Based on the faction's "hard hitting, and hard hit" flavor, this is no real surprise.

But hell, what do I know.
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Adeptus Noobus
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Sat 27 Jan, 2018 11:11 pm

Deuce Bigalow wrote:If one willfully makes change(s), even one thought to be "innocent" or inconsequential, inevitably there arise situations where the change(s) have unintended consequences. This is not a problem if you had your own mod and were the only one affected. But this is a community and changes that do not have the weight of consensus do not belong in mainstream iterations. The fact that there is considerable debate already and intuitively spells "no", however kudos for the sake of discussion.

The relationship between the delicacy/range/power of the Fire Prism has been as it is for quite some time. The cheapening of rangers has provided and indirect yet significant buff to Fire Prism's survivability. If in spite of this and excellent control opportunities by means of weapons teams, the FP's opponent has managed to gain an assault/stealth position that threatens the Fire Prism, it usually and should spell destruction. Based on the faction's "hard hitting, and hard hit" flavor, this is no real surprise.

But hell, what do I know.


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lomors
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby lomors » Sun 28 Jan, 2018 1:31 am

I like prisms now. I would love some speed buff for the sake of the lore but I enjoy them as artillery piece and I wouldn't want a total rework. There was a cool proposition of giving it an emergency shield mode, to run away from danger. If you watch 3v3 matches fire prisms die as soon as enemy gets some dedicated av really really really fast and from my experience Eldar players just tend to spam them so you can produce them faster than enemy can destroy them.

Emergency shield that would work like a small buff to speed + energy shield for like 7 secs to get away from danger + disabled weapons for FP. It sounds kind of fair in my mind but I leave final opinion to balance gods of our community. :D

And yeh, as falcon is getting a bit nerfed a bit of speed wouldn't hurt it. It's just my wish though. And if something could be implemented I think emergency shield is really more fair and wouldn't break Eldar. But no rush, it would have to be tested I think. I seriously like them as they are not and wouldn't like a total rework. Making them faster with less range etc would hurt Eldar a lot as it would require even more micro to keep it alive I think.

Edit: emergency shield would require a cooldown so it cannot get back to shooting after running away. That'd be unfair. Maybe make it also work only under 25% health os something.

Edit2: I really can't say if Eldar need this buff though. I'm mostly Eldar player so I'm not really objective. I think atm Eldar have really good tools to deal with heavy armor in t3. I simply thought of this solution as I heard lots of complaints about eldar t3.
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Thibix Magnus » Sun 28 Jan, 2018 9:24 pm

I'd love to write a very concrete suggestion with all the speed parameters (like zero backward speed) but I lack the knowledge and the whole discussion is quite discouraging to go further :) Most people keep assuming over and over that a straight buff was asked for cuz eldar fanboi qq, a tad pavlovian. Like riku said, implementing a "too-expensive-to-be-competitive" purchasable upgrade, so it wouldn't really mess up balance like actually suggested, might not be worth the work if there is not a widespread enthusiasm, this I can absolutely understand, but most of the thread hasn't been about that at all...

At least, if as some of you said, eldar T3 in 3v3 is already good and fun because of gimmick abilities (phase shift, time field), please just be careful if you are ALSO nerfing those again, or I fear the lazy turtle blob fest will be further encouraged.

Just for my own education, I wonder however what was the methodology for, say, creating the phobos. Was it really "Chaos definitely lacks in top level 1v1 exactly a T3, AV, super-tank that should have a good CC because some extremely precise data and replays" ? Or more "hey it might add some play-style diversity to Chaos, notably in 3v3, and is easily modable from LRR, let's find the correct price tag to keep it balanced" ?

anyway, as always thanks a lot for those who keep the mod alive, that's the most important really :)
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Adeptus Noobus
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Sun 28 Jan, 2018 9:32 pm

To answer your last paragraph: Mistakes were made in the past that shall not be repeated but are hard to be undone.
LOCALgHOST
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby LOCALgHOST » Sat 03 Feb, 2018 10:47 am

Just seen how "weak" eldar T3 is :) And how "weak" FP now. https://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/ ... &id=327710
realmslayer
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby realmslayer » Mon 05 Feb, 2018 12:46 am

Its pretty clear that buffing the fire prisms speed or durability is a definite no-no at this point.

I also think the lore argument in relation to eldar vehicles is bull, due to the fact that elder are primarily an infantry race.

That being said, eldar AV does leave something to be desired, especially vs targets such as land raiders and baneblades and the like.

I don't know about values, but a change ( if one is to be made) could be to lower the base damage on the fire prism a bit, but increase the damage of focused blast vs the really high HP targets. I think you could do this by unit size, not sure.

Overall though, I don't really like the idea of eldar having anti-all ranged weapons. It seems like it goes against the philosophy of specialization, and makes it too easy for unit roles to be cannibalized.
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egewithin
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby egewithin » Mon 05 Feb, 2018 7:03 am

Okay I tryed Prisims a few times to test in multiplayer, I usually don't get prisms. Prisms are fucking insane with their range AND their damage, specially if you have 2 of them.

Giving a speed or health buff would break them.
Atlas

Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Atlas » Mon 05 Feb, 2018 9:10 am

Well obviously you would nerf other parts of them to compensate for a speed buff. But meh.
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Adeptus Noobus
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Re: Eldar late game in 3v3: faster vehicles

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Mon 05 Feb, 2018 10:32 am

With all your teamgame suggestions, please keep in mind that some in this community enjoy balanced 1v1s. If we were to change the Fire Prism (just for lore keks) and redesign it, Eldar balance would become a nightmare again. They almost didn't survive the 1st redesign and it would certainly take another 1.5 - 2 years to get their next redesign right.
Consindering that Fire Prisms have very long range and above decent dmg + knockback it would be nigh impossible to ever catch a Fire Prism out of position due to its increased speed. Making it more tanky and less killy to factor in the redesign is also non-sensical as you would have to take into further consideration that Eldar has not a single infantry unit that could support such a tank. You would have to compensate for that as well.

On the topic of Eldar AV: I think Eldar have enough sources of high dmg output to threaten a Landraider. First of all the Fire Prism outranges the/any LR and deals 160 plasma_cannon_pvp. You have brightlances as well. And many seem to forget that D-Cannons deal a lot of dmg to vehicles as well. Especially if they are not moved. Since the Landraider is a big vehicle with a huge hitbox, the chance of the LR taking the full dmg of the D-Cannon shot is very high (you can't see the aoe vfx of the D-Cannon hitting a LR). It deals 110 plasma_cannon_pvp on the initial hit and iirc another 108 as area-dot plasma_cannon_pvp in different radii. That is 218 plasma_cannon_pvp in total.

I can only repeat what I have said before: play to the strength of the faction, not the way you want them to be played.

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