Design failure of Grey Knights

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egewithin
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Design failure of Grey Knights

Postby egewithin » Fri 14 Jul, 2017 9:10 am

As someone who studied Basic Design course, I think I have some rights to tell my opinion about this whole GK failure.

To explain te problem much easyer, look carefully at this photo

Image
THIS IS WHAT GK IS

For those who are too dense to understand; GK is made of very different and disconnected units. The whole army doesn't make any sence by it self. There isn't really an acceptible concept. What is the concept of OM even? To make an army that normal human soliders are organised with super elite soliders? Okay not bad at all, but lets se why it failed with looking into IST and Heretics for example.

Herecits are a back bone for Chaos. They are giving great bonuses for my army with their worship support. Worship support also gives insane benefits for deamon units in my army. They are providing anti-melee potential and anti setup team ability. Here comes the breaking point : What will I loose if I loose my Heretics? I am going to loose my worship support which is very important to support my front line marines, my anti-melee or anti-setup team ability, my repair support, my shrines.

Or lets take Scouts. They are good for capping, anti-melee or sniping, infiltration, graneding and repairing. Or Dire Avengers? They are also acting as a backbone for Eldar if used right. Same for GM and Sluggaz.

And what is the benefit of having IST? Or let me ask this; what am I going to loose if I loose them? What do they provide?

- It is not capping. Ony 0.5 faster than marines. And there isn't a practical way to increase their speed for this purpose. Scouts and Hormos for example 6.5 speed insted of 5. This is asking for capping. Or Eldar units have Fleet ability that gives +3 speed, makes any unit to be used for capping if needed and it is a practical ability.

It is only firepower. IST are just a simple shooty squad and nothing else. I can list at least 3 or 4 things that you will loose incase of loosing your starting squad, but not same for IST. And even if you will try to list them, it would be very forced and lame, wouldn't make any difference in the end.

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Or lets take Rhino. What is the purpose of Rhino compared to other transports in the game?

Wartrukk : Provides reinforcement for fragile Ork units and filling their quick losses. Its speed also fits for shock assaults of Orks.
Razorbak : Fast transport to help marines about their mobility problems. Its purpose is to take marines in and out of battle.
Chimera : Provides reinforcement for very fragile IG units. Provides durability on battle field which is what IG really needs.

What does Rhino do? It doesn't really give anything to GK.

- It is not mobility, it can carry only 2 squads.
- It is not durability, or it shouldn't be; It only helps IST to stay on the field, which is not even an important unit for GK as I have said above. It shouldn't be made to reinforce marines because of economy. If it only helps marines to get in and out of battle, I can support that idea, similar to razorback.

So what does Rhino do, what is a Rhino? It is a fucking lame Predator in T2. It has a lascannon upgrade. Why it has a lascannon upgrade?!! If anti vehilce weapons is what GK suffers ( which is not ) this is not the way to fix it. It only ruins game balance unnecesserly. It is even faster than Fire Dragons and much harder to deal with. Isn't this just unfair?

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2 small problems here. GK Termnators and SS.


GK Terminators are only cheap Paladins, for those who doesn't have enough money to buy them. what is their purpose? Being a tanky power melee squad? Purifiers can do that for less money and more damage. You may say that this is a bad comparison, and you will, but there isn't any other example of this in any other race. GK units are not unique, this is the real problem to be honest.

Its time for SS. As you haven't noticed with every patch comes, SS are always getting radial changes and having different purposes every time, just like IST. Meanwhile, all other units in the game are just getting small technical changes for balance. The '' patches '' are actual patches, you know, ones on clotes, for these guys, just to fix them. This is a great example of how GK is broken. And I still don't know why they have a Crippling Poison ability. Are they a front line fire power unit or not? Do you even sure what do you actually want?

Another problem is their weapons, proboly something came with this patch. Their '' focus firing at the same model '' becames a real problem with their psycannon upgrades, leads to sniping big marine models with 2 of them, impossible to deal wih them with heavy infantry races. Even double plasma Tacs are killing less. At least they sometimes miss or something. 2 of SS are sniping fat heavy infantry models.

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Aren't there any good units in GK? Yes there are. Like Operatives (exept their stun nade effect range), Inteceptors, Purgation and Vindicare. They are very good designed concepts and I like them. But still, not enough for making GK a proper race

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This is why I support removing GK from the game unless they are really fixed. GK is made of disconnected and broken units. I am just sick of 8 paragrafs of GK changes in every patch and stoped following their changes after 2.6. Is it too hard to see that they are broken and poorly designed?
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Torpid
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Re: Desing failure of Grey Knights

Postby Torpid » Fri 14 Jul, 2017 7:18 pm

Hold up for next patch. I will post the design basis and how the units all interact with one another to make the race function as well as do some streams to illustrate it when it gets released.

The SS and IST concerns will be addressed.

Terminators vs paladins is a fairly clear distinction. Hard anti-infantry superiority to more supportive and AV. It is comparable to SC. Paladins are a very unique unit. With very unique abilities, HM whilst being a strong melee unit and a unique damage-resistance-granting inspiration on kill.

P.S Las-rhinos are ass and very UP atm, definitely not OP.
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Re: Design failure of Grey Knights

Postby crog » Wed 19 Jul, 2017 4:05 pm

Grey Knights need 3 heros and they have to be an own faction using a different icon to sm.
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TheGoldenChicken
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Re: Design failure of Grey Knights

Postby TheGoldenChicken » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 4:28 pm

crog wrote:Grey Knights need 3 heros and they have to be an own faction using a different icon to sm.


Well, if it's not a technical problem, they could get an inquisitor hero, one from the ordo malleus, given that the inquisitor from IG is from the ordo hereticus, that should then be their support hero. They could then have like a tech-priest aegis runesmith as a defence hero, or perhaps a purifier veteran as a quick-attack/assassin hero.
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Re: Design failure of Grey Knights

Postby Nurland » Tue 25 Jul, 2017 3:21 pm

It is a techical problem though.
#noobcodex
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TheGoldenChicken
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Re: Design failure of Grey Knights

Postby TheGoldenChicken » Wed 26 Jul, 2017 9:04 am

Then I rest my case, I can only imagine what it took to add a whole new race to the game...
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Torpid
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Re: Design failure of Grey Knights

Postby Torpid » Wed 26 Jul, 2017 9:28 am

If all else fails then we could simply add alternate heroes into the other races. The brother-captain is in SM for example. Perhaps add a daemonhunter to imperial guard. It makes some semblance of sense given there's a witch hunter there.

Not sure what we'd do with a third hero haha.
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Element
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Re: Design failure of Grey Knights

Postby Element » Wed 26 Jul, 2017 10:01 am

Gk Commanders

Brotherhood Champion- A power armored model with an array of tanks wargear option (perhaps even taking some from the brotherhood captain wargear array)

-Bound Daemonblade, Artificer Armor, Iron Halo
-Force Falchions, Holy Inscriptions, Teleporter Pack
-Force Hammer, Tears of the Emperor, Weapons Expert Training

Assassin- with upgrades distinguishing the character by branch of militant- with an array of tactical option upgrades

starting power sword and pistol

-Exitus sniper rifle, Crazed Stimulants Implants, Heretics branch
-Ctan phase sword, cloaking armor, order Malleus branch
-phase pistol, assassin's reflex gear, xenos branch

Brotherhood Captain
"The meaning of life is to have purpose, and the purpose of life is what you choose to make of it, in addition to what you come to understand along the way."

"Because I choose to."

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Crewfinity
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Re: Design failure of Grey Knights

Postby Crewfinity » Wed 26 Jul, 2017 5:03 pm

Torpid wrote:Not sure what we'd do with a third hero haha.


Make it a radical inquisitor and throw him into the chaos lineup ;)
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egewithin
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Re: Design failure of Grey Knights

Postby egewithin » Wed 26 Jul, 2017 5:17 pm

If modders are interested in, I may help with ideas, roles and wargears of other GK heroes.
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Rostam
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Re: Design failure of Grey Knights

Postby Rostam » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 5:47 am

I think adding a hero like Lord inquisitor or sth would makes them unbalanced more to be honest

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