Two Newbros: A few gameplay questions

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guymandude
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Two Newbros: A few gameplay questions

Postby guymandude » Wed 28 Jun, 2017 2:55 am

A friend and I started playing this mod recently. We try to do 1v1s most days of the week for a few hours. We have a few questions.

My friend was main'ing IG for a while, against my CSM. He had serious issues whenever I got a dread out in T2. We looked at all his T1-T2 options, i.e. heavy weapons team, krak grenades on sentinels, T2 stormtroopers, etc. He wasn't happy with any of these options. In our tests, he said the heavy weapons team was the only thing that seemed to have enough firepower to his satisfaction, but it's a set-up team that isn't mobile. He didn't like this (I think he has a bias towards driving vehicles like tanks, dreads, etc - he was a tank spammer in CoH2 and didn't use ATGs, artillery, etc. I think he wants an anti-armor tank in T2, but he doesn't have one). At any rate...

1) What's the best way or ways to deal with a T2 vehicle (a dread) as IG in T2? Did we miss anything?

I'm the furthest thing from 'pro' there is at this game, so I'm sure this isn't a particularly good strat. But what I did against him was spam heretics with grenade launchers at him in T1, my rationale being that guardsmen are squishy, and that grenades should do good damage to them at range. This strat was successful and tended to bleed him pretty badly. He thus claimed that heretics were 'better' than guardsmen, had way longer range with the grenades, that there seemed to be an imbalance, yadda yadda. I tried to recommend a few things off the top of my head, like spam sentinels instead (I figured they'd bleed less as they are only 1 model, they have stomp + grenades, etc), try to dodge the grenades, etc. He was never happy with anything we tried.

2) How would you deal with grenade heretic spam as IG? Note that an answer like "get leman russ out" isn't acceptable - we want an answer within the same tier.

We ran a few tests and the 'general damage' turret upgrade on the leman russ was about as good, or in some cases even better at killing a tank, as the anti-armor upgrade. We did note that the anti-armor upgrade seemed to have longer range, but that didn't seem to make up for the fact that the other upgrade was better in all other respects (anti-infantry).

3) Shouldn't the anti-armor upgrade on the leman russ be better than it is at killing armor, relative to the other upgrade?

My friend decided that IG playstyle didn't suit him, so he switched to Eldar. Then he went from losing to winning right away. We experienced one particular incident where he was controlling the middle and had a wraithlord there which I was trying to eliminate as CSM. I finally went T3, got a predator, and upgraded the weapon to mark of tzeentch. I drove the tank into the middle, in an attempt to hunt the wraithlord. My tank died in literally 2 seconds before I could even blink an eye. The replay showed that a brightlance team got 1 shot off, and a wraithguard standing nearby got the next shot off, and the tank just exploded. So he went from not having an adequate anti-armor solution in T2, to one that was too good. We were both shocked.

4) Our 'feel' is that this 'wipe' happened way too fast and suddenly. Can someone provide some perspective or rationale?

A combo he stumbled upon largely by accident was a wraithlord guarding some wraithguard against melee, with a brightlance cannon behind. Heck, I guess a shuriken could even be put there for good measure. At any rate I found this incredibly hard to deal with, at least as CSM.

5) How would you deal with this as CSM? Assume T2 or lower in your answer.

May as well hit you with this too. He likes to spam a bunch of banshees in T1. If I build CSM, the banshees cut right through the heavy armor. And heretics don't seem to deal with them well either.

6) How would you deal with banshee spam as CSM in T1?

We thank you for your answers.
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Re: Two Newbros: A few gameplay questions

Postby Psycho » Wed 28 Jun, 2017 4:01 am

Chaos can be extremely annoying at times as IG.

What's the best way or ways to deal with a T2 vehicle (a dread) as IG in T2? Did we miss anything?


Most things other than the HWT lascannon are either soft counters or counters that need extreme support. Krak sentinel is gonna be there by default, though what I like to do is to get a combination of soft counters like cata melta if I went catas, upgrade HWT to autocannon, melta STs since they also do well vs everything else should the vehicle die and can sneak for genbash, inquisitor inferno pistol/lord general melta guns (commissar sticks with the power sword, it's 50 power to get the claw and not only is it melee, it has no ability with it, better spend power elsewhere or save for the eventuall T3 into russ), and so on. You're not going to get a "unit" to counter the vehicles but rather have a bunch of units weak by themselves that combined their soft-countering to scare the vehicle away or outright kill it. Everything I mentioned still has its use vs infantry-only armies should the vehicle die, but the lascannon is just gonna bleed req through upkeep at best. It takes a ton of micro since those units are bound to be targeted by the enemy army, but that's more of a problem of skill rather than army capability; no easy way out other than to try again and again and again till you either gain the skill or give up altogether.

How would you deal with grenade heretic spam as IG? Note that an answer like "get leman russ out" isn't acceptable - we want an answer within the same tier.


If spam as in 3 or more, double sentinel and enough micro to make you not play anymore for the day. If spam as in 2, you're gonna have to be extremely defensive and meticulous on killing those tics and kiting away the other army if it advances. The sentinel is a bleeding machine since even though it has less dps than sergeant guardsmen, it's a single weapon focused on a single model apart from the obvious spread. It won't kill a squad as fast, but it hurts to lose 11 req tics at a constant rate with a unit that's way faster than tics and can move back while shooting. The one thing most important in the engagement is that nades don't "lead" the target, so if the sentinel and the GMs keep moving, they'll not get hit (at least in theory).

Shouldn't the anti-armor upgrade on the leman russ be better than it is at killing armor, relative to the other upgrade?


Vanilla russ has 17.14 dps vs vehicles at 44 range with splash damage, a 120 explosive damage shot every 6 seconds. Vanquisher russ has 35.71 dps vs vehicles with no splash, at 55 range, a 150 explosive damage shot every 4.2 seconds. I don't consider it anti-tank in the same sense as laspreds, but more in that it can deal damage from so far away while having great repair support from GMs and bunkers. Whatever is in its range is gonna get hit, hard, including enemy vehicles which it outranges forcing them to either back off or push forward. It can bleed enemy infantry extremely hard too. It's an anti-all sniper on treads, in essence. Due to having so much range, it can also stay at such distance that allows you to move away from threats safer. Get a couple of them, and it's a bitch to play against.

Our 'feel' is that this 'wipe' happened way too fast and suddenly. Can someone provide some perspective or rationale?


Fuck eldar.

How would you deal with this as CSM? Assume T2 or lower in your answer.


I don't play CSM, so I can't help you there. Also fuck eldar.

How would you deal with banshee spam as CSM in T1?


See above. Probably at least two heretics with Aspiring Champion + a havocs. Fuck eldar btw.
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Re: Two Newbros: A few gameplay questions

Postby Deflaktor » Wed 28 Jun, 2017 4:47 am

Welcome aboard to the elite mod! First of all, it would be nice to know which hero you prefer and which hero he prefers, as they make a tremendous difference in approach and strategy. I am an eldar main so I can answer mostly eldar related questions.

guymandude wrote:We ran a few tests and the 'general damage' turret upgrade on the leman russ was about as good, or in some cases even better at killing a tank, as the anti-armor upgrade. We did note that the anti-armor upgrade seemed to have longer range, but that didn't seem to make up for the fact that the other upgrade was better in all other respects (anti-infantry).

3) Shouldn't the anti-armor upgrade on the leman russ be better than it is at killing armor, relative to the other upgrade?


Yes, the damage is almost the same. However, range is huge in this game. Take the Fire Prism for example. Its focused beam mode deals the lowest anti tank damage of any T3 tank in the game. But it makes totally up for it with its range. It is an extremely good tank finisher. A low hp tank will almost never get away from a Fire Prism because of its ridiculous range. Add guide to it from the Farseer and it can practically kill a tank half across the map.

So when you purchase the upgrade for the leman russ you essentially choose either range or splash damage. However his effectiveness against units (or tanks depending on the upgrade you choose) is not reduced. In fact, high level players rarely choose splash damage because of how good the extra range is. Only if your opponent does not have any vehicles you might want to consider to choose splash damage.

guymandude wrote:My friend decided that IG playstyle didn't suit him, so he switched to Eldar. Then he went from losing to winning right away. We experienced one particular incident where he was controlling the middle and had a wraithlord there which I was trying to eliminate as CSM. I finally went T3, got a predator, and upgraded the weapon to mark of tzeentch. I drove the tank into the middle, in an attempt to hunt the wraithlord. My tank died in literally 2 seconds before I could even blink an eye. The replay showed that a brightlance team got 1 shot off, and a wraithguard standing nearby got the next shot off, and the tank just exploded. So he went from not having an adequate anti-armor solution in T2, to one that was too good. We were both shocked.

4) Our 'feel' is that this 'wipe' happened way too fast and suddenly. Can someone provide some perspective or rationale?


Tanks in this game are really squishy. Only the Leman Russ is a bit beefier or the Mark of Nurgle Chaos Predator. But even they are going to die quickly if they engage two anti vehicle units at the same time. So you absolutely need to know where his AV units are if you want to push with your tank. Generally speaking, your tank should always be behind your line units to be safe.

That being said, wraithguards are a very powerful anti-all unit. I think they have the highest anti-all damage in the game. It is your top priority to tie this unit up in melee. The melee damage of wraithguards is pathetic, so you can safely tie it up with any other unit, even range units like grenade launcher heretics. You just need to press the force melee button. The backsides of wraithguards is their slow speed and very short range. If they catch you off-guard they can do a lot of damage. However if you are prepared and tie them up early enough, they rarely contribute anything to the battle and just lose expensive models.

guymandude wrote:A combo he stumbled upon largely by accident was a wraithlord guarding some wraithguard against melee, with a brightlance cannon behind. Heck, I guess a shuriken could even be put there for good measure. At any rate I found this incredibly hard to deal with, at least as CSM.

5) How would you deal with this as CSM? Assume T2 or lower in your answer.


Well thats a lot of units in a single spot. Such a composition would indeed be hard to push. At that point you might want to see if you can push other points in the map so that he is forced to split his army or try to flank him.
However if you still want to push you can use a Mark of Khorne Chaos Dreadnought to tie up the Wraithguards and immediately jump the brightlance with chaos raptors. If there is a shuriken as well, then rather jump the shuriken and tie up the brightlance with your hero or another unit. A Mark of Khorne Chaos Dreadnought will win against Wraithlord by a good measure. His ability Blood Rage will reduce his damage taken by 50% so you can easily tank a bit more damage even if he is damaged quite badly by the time you tie up the brightlance. So that would be 2 units with which you could theoretically push off 4 units.

guymandude wrote:May as well hit you with this too. He likes to spam a bunch of banshees in T1. If I build CSM, the banshees cut right through the heavy armor. And heretics don't seem to deal with them well either.

6) How would you deal with banshee spam as CSM in T1?


Banshee spam might work in the first few engagements, but it is generally a cost inefficient strategy since they bleed a lot. The key is to not lose squads and control them with suppression or disruption. Use your heretics to doom blast them or grenade barrage them to keep them at bay. Get Havocs up fast. Eldar do not have any efficient means to engage suppression teams in T1 except for the Warp Spider Exarch. If he plays Warp Spider Exarch, get double Havocs up. If you play Chaos Sorcerer, get the Flame Sword, it deals decent damage against Banshees. If you play Chaos Lord, just try to disrupt them with Kill the Weak. You might even want to get his Combi-Flamer to burn them. If you play Plague Champion, he is an absolute melee monster and cannot be engaged with banshees under any circumstance.


Also, I have to say this is all just theorycraft. There is more to the game than just unit X and Y against unit Z. In the end it all comes down to micro. It is important to know which abilities your units and your hero have at their disposal and when it is the best time to use it. So I will suggest you to watch Indrid Casts as he does an amazing job on explaining the abilities used and which engagements are preferable to which side. These two replays might be relevant to you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CKS3bvyhWA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c3cJ-DoB80
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Re: Two Newbros: A few gameplay questions

Postby Ace of Swords » Wed 28 Jun, 2017 2:53 pm

1) What's the best way or ways to deal with a T2 vehicle (a dread) as IG in T2? Did we miss anything?


IG is heavily dependant on their hero and the buffs it provides, for example a commissar executed lascannon can kill a dred in about 3 shots, for the rest the lascannon range is bigger by 10 compared to the grenade launcher and is always an excellent choice against every walker but needs to be supported properly.

Then you have a lot of options depending on what kind of dred it is, in elite (this doesn't apply to retail) melee dreds (the ones equipped with only melee weapons to be clear) have a 50% damage resistance from melee damage so in that case ogryns or an heros equipped with heavy melee aren't quite ideal to counter them, though these units can still provide a good chunk of damage, on the other hand they will do well in tying up and killing dreds equipped with ranged weapons, melta troopers do well in all instances but they are better as extra/supplementary av, they however shine in sniping tanks and transports and other low HP vehicles where they can get around, melta bomb-slow them and quickly kill them with the extra rear damage.



2) How would you deal with grenade heretic spam as IG? Note that an answer like "get leman russ out" isn't acceptable - we want an answer within the same tier.


GMs are pretty much the best infantry in the game, they are cheap and scale extremely well in late game, tics spam doesn't really work vs IG, the sentinel stomp does a lot of damage again them as does the spotter's shell and catachan's old reliable can easily finish off a retreat squad and all IG heroes can easily deal with them even in mass due to the fact that they lack single target damage, obvious though they will counter blobbed up GMs squads and HWTs.


3) Shouldn't the anti-armor upgrade on the leman russ be better than it is at killing armor, relative to the other upgrade?


The vanquisher is indeed better, it has a huge range which is extremely important and does a lot of damage per shut has it has high burst rather than substained DPS, which is a lot more effective in killing vehicles, the executioner one is very good against infantry (it does plasma cannon damage iirc) so it's also effective against vehicle but the extremely short range for a tank will expose your leman to certain death and for sure it won't be able to stand up to a microed tank from the opponent, it also does friendly fire.


4) Our 'feel' is that this 'wipe' happened way too fast and suddenly. Can someone provide some perspective or rationale?


brightlance have the highest dps a mong AV setup teams but they have no slow, it's also more DPS oriented rather than burst like lootas or the various lascannons, wraithguards are extremely slow and short range but do a lot of damage, a tank that's not snared should never get caught in their fire.

5) How would you deal with this as CSM? Assume T2 or lower in your answer.


It is hard to deal with because it's a lot of power spent in t2, you could consider getting artillery (noise marines with blastmaster) to harass/force off the brightlance and WGs or you could spend a lot of power in t2 and got autocannon with plague marines to easily dispatch of the wraithlord and bloodletters or a khorne dred to easily tie up the shuri and WGs, it also depends on the hero you play a sorcerer with sigil of the warp can easily instantly remove the brightlance from the equation and I wouldn't rule out a tzeentch dred either though I think in this case a Khorne one will do better.


6) How would you deal with banshee spam as CSM in T1?


Banshees are expensive to reinforce you can counter them with your tics/hero and trade models in an extremely cost effective way, of course careful to not get your squad wiped but otherwise if you position correctly an havoc can easily shut them down.
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Re: Two Newbros: A few gameplay questions

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 28 Jun, 2017 9:44 pm

guymandude wrote:2) How would you deal with grenade heretic spam as IG? Note that an answer like "get leman russ out" isn't acceptable - we want an answer within the same tier.


Sentinels can whittle them down quickly as long as they are moving in order to dodge the grenade volleys (Don't forget to have your sentinel crush all of your opponents cover so he is stuck out in the open). The stomp can also take a nice chunk out of their health and leave them vulnerable to GM fire, which they will melt under if stunned and disrupted.

Spotters artillery shell will take a nice chunk out of heretics HP and leave them vulnerable to fire, similar to the sentinel stomp. Since chaos players want to do grenade launcher damage in large bursts, they often clump them up so they can fire simultaneously - this makes them a prime target for artillery shells. Also, IIRC a Lord Commissar can execute a spotter model before they fire their artillery shell, causing the shell to do 2x dmg, leading to it insta-gibbing any heretics it hits.

Catachans ol' reliable also takes a nice chunk out of heretics hp and disrupts them. The great thing about ol 'reliable is that it does not knockback retreating units, so most models in a retreating unit will be hit by 2-3 of the grenades easily, this means you can wipe the remaining members of a fleeing squad. Lord Commissar execute also doubles this ability's damage, meaning you can turn heretics into paste with a well-placed hit. I believe that executing a catachan and having them cast their shotgun blast also causes it to bug out and do a stupidly high amount of damage, leading to heretics being insta-gibbed in some cases. I generally don't advocate for exploiting bugs, but if he has 3 nade tics feel free to fuck his shit up.

Basically, your GM will lose in a straight-up fight, but with a well-placed disruption/damage spell from one of the IG's support units, your GM will be able to quickly gun down the heretic squads.
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Re: Two Newbros: A few gameplay questions

Postby guymandude » Thu 29 Jun, 2017 2:42 am

Thanks for all the replies. We both read them - they were very helpful.
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Re: Two Newbros: A few gameplay questions

Postby guymandude » Thu 29 Jun, 2017 2:47 am

In other developments, it appears I cannot beat his banshee spam no matter what I do. All he has to do is mash "build banshee" over and over again (5+ banshees) and a-move his banshees at my Chaos. Last attempt I built 3 havoks and tried to place them as best as I could and they did absolutely nothing - I guess they are ridiculously easy to flank. It was so easy for him he was literally alt-tabbing out to read email while battles were taking place. I finally said "no more Eldar - play another race" so I guess that's the end of that.

Like the guy said up there - "fuck Eldar" :(
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Re: Two Newbros: A few gameplay questions

Postby Torpid » Thu 29 Jun, 2017 3:18 am

guymandude wrote:In other developments, it appears I cannot beat his banshee spam no matter what I do. All he has to do is mash "build banshee" over and over again (5+ banshees) and a-move his banshees at my Chaos. Last attempt I built 3 havoks and tried to place them as best as I could and they did absolutely nothing - I guess they are ridiculously easy to flank. It was so easy for him he was literally alt-tabbing out to read email while battles were taking place. I finally said "no more Eldar" so I guess that's the end of that.

Like the guy said up there - "fuck Eldar" :(


Banshee spam is very easy to beat compared to the real horror that is good shuriken usage...

In fact, 3x DA is harder to beat than banshee spam.

Young one, you just have progress to make yet. Don't worry about it. Banshees are the first stepping stone into glory.

What hero are you playing? The PC does best vs melee spam. Blight grenades absolutely deny melee units. You typically wanna combo you abilities as chaos with either the havoc suppression or the doomblast suppression from your tics. Doomblast -> nade -> run tics away. Doomblast + doombolts = cannot be dodged doombolts. That sort of thing. You also wanna get your melee weapons really with CS/PC. The combi flamer is not a bad idea for the CL.

Utimately it is havocs that stop a melee spam. Set-up teams in general are your go to hard melee counter. Especially vs eldar since eldar don't get a jump unit. There's no reason 3 havocs shouldn't be able to stop 5 shees given that you have your hero, csm and some tics to support.

Whilst you're stalling it out with those havocs you can tech up to the khorne dread. The khorne dread is your heaviest melee counter in T2 as chaos. It can kill practically infinite shees so it makes a very baby-sitter of your havocs which can then (at least the one at the front being guarded by the dread) swap to autocannons.

Then the hard T2 counters on your heroes are:
Let The Galaxy Burn on the chaos lord alongside the blood maul.
The T2 armour on the PC that stops him being able to be knocked over so he can truly demolish stuff in melee - and the icon of nurgle.
And of course for the chaos sorceror the robes of torment as well as the icon of tzeentch.

I suspect, although analysis of the replay would lead to greater insight, that you are not teching anywhere near quick enough. A game ought not last through T1 for such length that 5x shees would be viable. One typically would get out a bloodcrusher before that point and then the potent T2 anti-melee stuff comes out on your heroes and suddenly the shees are useless.
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Re: Two Newbros: A few gameplay questions

Postby Psycho » Thu 29 Jun, 2017 3:49 am

guymandude wrote:Last attempt I built 3 havoks and tried to place them as best as I could and they did absolutely nothing - I guess they are ridiculously easy to flank. It was so easy for him he was literally alt-tabbing out to read email while battles were taking place. I finally said "no more Eldar - play another race" so I guess that's the end of that.

There wasn't any info on your post on what exactly you did, so I'll risk saying something you already know. Proper setup team placement should be with only one being at the very front to shoot at whatever is coming. The others should be to cover the first should opponents get close to start engaging it in melee. You want your rear setup team to be placed in such a way that if the front one gets tied in melee, the rear one can shoot at the front ones; this is both to not have a single flank ruin 2+ setup teams due to not covering each other, but also to have the oponent fear engaging the first one due to the threat of getting suppressed by attacking it, unable to attack the rear one. If the rear one has another such setup team covering it, it gets better for you and worse for him, but this is assuming going with so many setup teams is actually worth it; in your case vs 5+ banshees it certainly is, he'll be massively req starved through bleeding and upkeep.
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Re: Two Newbros: A few gameplay questions

Postby guymandude » Thu 29 Jun, 2017 10:51 am

Torpid wrote:Banshee spam is very easy to beat compared to the real horror that is good shuriken usage...

In fact, 3x DA is harder to beat than banshee spam.


I believe you 100%.

Currently our skill is at 'suck level 0' (henceforth to be known as SL0) :) So at this level it is extremely easy for him to mash 'build banshee' over and over again, and then a-move them around the map, while picking his nose and casually alt-tabbing out to check an email or whatever. And at SL0 I have a much harder time dealing with it than he does executing it.

Anyway, good shuriken usage and 3x DA is what... 'decent level 8' or something? Many levels above where we are :)

Young one, you just have progress to make yet. Don't worry about it. Banshees are the first stepping stone into glory.


I was hoping someone here would call me 'grasshoppah' but 'young one' will do :) At any rate, I'm here to learn.

What hero are you playing?


Tried all. At SL0, the CL is easiest for me to manage, and more obvious on how to use him (just a-move him around), so I kinda-sorta use him. I've tried Plague Champion but micro and multitasking skills at SL0 are such that when I look away for a split second I come back to find him laying on the ground, and at SL0 it is actually unwise to keep reviving the hero because it is a resource sink with no payoff, so I just let him lay there. Sorcerer seemed to be a more advanced micro-intensive hero which is of course bad at SL0, and I had similar issues to the PC with him dying quite easily.

I've also tried Tyranids, btw. I liked them, but I guess Chaos is easier.

I suspect, although analysis of the replay would lead to greater insight, that you are not teching anywhere near quick enough. A game ought not last through T1 for such length that 5x shees would be viable.


Before he found that he could win extremely easily with Eldar, with no effort whatsoever, he was playing IG. We sank many hours into playing each other and found that at SL0 the person who spammed the most T1 units (so much that he couldn't afford to even build power) would always win against the person who tried to tech, because he had a couple additional units in his army. We dubbed this amazingly intelligent strat 'tier 1 flood' (T1F) and normally we both simply go T1F to either nullify the other guy's T1F, or to win in the event that the other guy tried to do something stupid like get power :)

Whenever we graduate from SL0 to something else, we'd like to take a course on teching.
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Re: Two Newbros: A few gameplay questions

Postby Broodwich » Fri 30 Jun, 2017 4:59 am

i like this guy

I would say that PC is the best hero for dealing with melee all around. CL has great anti melee in t2, but PC has 3 wargears that can shut down melee by himself in t1. The armor suppresses, drop a nade. The spewer slows and debuffs, and has a hard snare that isn't too hard to land > drop a nade. The spewer debuffs, so get AC tics and use it to win melee engagements. All of these buy time for you to reposition your havocs and completely shutdown melee, with csm doing reliable dps alongside

I'm practically drooling just thinking of going up against so much melee... one more soul for slaanesh!
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Re: Two Newbros: A few gameplay questions

Postby Rostam » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 6:10 am

as to ur IG friend,A lascanon could easily counter a dread ,u also have sentinel missile launcher to help
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