Why was DA exarch moved to T1?

[earthsongs]

Hi, I'm a returning Eldar player. I stopped playing around the release of Chaos Rising, but decided to return for some games.

One of the changes to Eldar I'm most curious about is bringing DA exarch to T1.

What was the rationale behind this change? How did the discussion go?

I'd like to hear about the history behind it if someone would be willing to briefly share a story with me.

[Deflaktor]

Eldar lacks detection in t1 since rangers are a sub optimal choice against specific match ups

[earthsongs]

Thank you. So it was detector issue. I do remember Kommando Nob being particularly annoying to deal with when I played.

[Tex]

And now that rangers have been made much easier to purchase, I think its worth looking at taking detection away from DA's and putting it on the exarch or Dark Reapers or something else if it must be put on something.

[Atlas]

And now that rangers have been made much easier to purchase, I think its worth looking at taking detection away from DA's and putting it on the exarch or Dark Reapers or something else if it must be put on something.

Which is basically what is happening on 2.6.1. Notes as is has them just losing detection, leaving Rangers as the detector in the Eldar army.

[boss]

yaaaaaaaay I can buy a detection unit but they cant even kill tics with them no more yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay such a usefully unit

[crog]

These rangers are completely useless since they do zero dmg.. U have to waste 45power for nothing!

And Da without upgrades bleed so fast, this unit got nerfed to death.. But yes keep on nerfing them.

[Ace of Swords]

These rangers are completely useless since they do zero dmg.. U have to waste 45power for nothing!

And Da without upgrades bleed so fast, this unit got nerfed to death.. But yes keep on nerfing them.

DA have been reverted to what they were originally and they are more than fine.

Rangers are a bad combat unit but for 20 power you get a great control ability and the best detection in the game.

[Deflaktor]

Forcing to buy rangers on top of battle equipment on a already power hungry race seems like a bad idea.

I agree with crog. Unupgraded dire avengers bleed too fast. It is better to have some tactical decision as a reason to buying battle equipment than "or else my economy is gonna be shit".
So I suggest, instead of battle equipment giving DA their HP back, it should give back their damage. That's right. Nerf base damage by 15% and give it back with battle equipment.

When there was discussion what to do with DA, people were against nerfing the base damage because then DA would be less of a glass cannon. It would remove part of their intended design. However imo it will benefit the game more if we went with that for two reasons.

First, the main complaint about DA was their insane DPS for how fast they came out. They can force off scouts or heretics extremely fast and as such SM and CSM have a very hard time against a banshee opening.

Second, if I were to decide to not buy Battle Equipment for DA then they are not part of my main force. Instead I have a different purpose for them in my mind. I would much rather have a cheap unit capping on the side lines without having to invest power in it. Or maybe I just want to have them as a damage sponge, to help shees get across. In this case I would much rather have defense than offense from the get-go.

That way I also have the tactical decision to either go for some damage (battle equipment) or more defense (exarch). This could open the opportunity to different play styles and alleviate the problem of Eldar being a power hungry race, since battle equipment is not that much of a must buy anymore.

[crog]

That would be a great solution, i totally agree with you.
Nerf the dmg but give them more health.

A few pew pew chasing from FC and u lose 2 da instantly. While spacemarines survive with 50HP 3 models..

[Black Relic]

You seem to forgetting the feel and different play style of the factions. SM is a power hungry race. IMO Eldar dont need to spend as much power in t1 as Sm.

Getting Banshees forces a power purchase from SM most of the time. If the SM got ASm you can get shees with aspect. And have an easier time dealing with a 50 power investment with a 20 power investment.

Idk eldar still seem pretty good to me. And thought the changes were pretty good. I just would like all AV nades' slow not stack with each other.

[Deflaktor]

Eldar are still pretty good and the changes were good indeed. However the playstyles are more limited now. You are forced to buy battle equipment for no good reason.

Removing detection from exarch limits the playstyles even more as then you are forced to buy rangers.

I just want more diversity

[Cyris]

Eldar are still pretty good and the changes were good indeed. However the playstyles are more limited now. You are forced to buy battle equipment for no good reason.

I actually feel the exact opposite! I think BE and Exarch both in t1 open up more build / timing options. BE is hardly mandatory, DA's big strength is coming out of the gate with a tac squad wirth of dps at +10% base move speed for almost HALF the cost of a tac. The BE and Exarch enhance different aspects of the squad, but neither is as cost efficient for buying high dps then another DA

In other words, try to cover their weaknesses (poor ranged attrition trading) with their strengths (high movespeed, high damage, versatile upgrades).

I'm glad to see Exarch getting the nerfs he did, and BE with a small (lower then retail) health boost let's me decide how much or little to invest in DA's, a lot like Scouts. Different tools for different situations.

[Tex]

Well said, 100% agreed.

Maths...

[Forestradio]

Maths...

[Torpid]

Forcing to buy rangers on top of battle equipment on a already power hungry race seems like a bad idea.

I agree with crog. Unupgraded dire avengers bleed too fast. It is better to have some tactical decision as a reason to buying battle equipment than "or else my economy is gonna be shit".
So I suggest, instead of battle equipment giving DA their HP back, it should give back their damage. That's right. Nerf base damage by 15% and give it back with battle equipment.

When there was discussion what to do with DA, people were against nerfing the base damage because then DA would be less of a glass cannon. It would remove part of their intended design. However imo it will benefit the game more if we went with that for two reasons.

First, the main complaint about DA was their insane DPS for how fast they came out. They can force off scouts or heretics extremely fast and as such SM and CSM have a very hard time against a banshee opening.

Second, if I were to decide to not buy Battle Equipment for DA then they are not part of my main force. Instead I have a different purpose for them in my mind. I would much rather have a cheap unit capping on the side lines without having to invest power in it. Or maybe I just want to have them as a damage sponge, to help shees get across. In this case I would much rather have defense than offense from the get-go.

That way I also have the tactical decision to either go for some damage (battle equipment) or more defense (exarch). This could open the opportunity to different play styles and alleviate the problem of Eldar being a power hungry race, since battle equipment is not that much of a must buy anymore.

Eldar are still pretty good and the changes were good indeed. However the playstyles are more limited now. You are forced to buy battle equipment for no good reason.

Removing detection from exarch limits the playstyles even more as then you are forced to buy rangers.

I just want more diversity

DA have always done the dps they do atm even since retail and for the longest of time were considered one of the weakest units in the game. They currently still perform better than retail because as Dullahan has noticed there has been an overall meta-wide power creep in terms of everything getting better, thus to stay viable DA need to be better than they were in retail. However, the battle equipment is weaker. Nobody complained about guardians in retail despite them being weaker than the modern DA. That is because it was implicitly known that if you went 3x guardians you were dumb. Eldar rely on their shurikens and their rangers depending on the MU.

But obviously those retail rangers were bloody ugly to fight, so we don't have them anymore, so you have to rely on mostly 2x DA +shurikens with one extra ranger thrown in for most T1s. Still one thing you can do on elite that you cannot reliably in retail is go for 2x shees. Since they cost so much less out of the gate in elite in spite of starting with more hp...

Playstyles may indeed be a bit more limited but that is because DA aren't OP. Under no circumstances whatsoever should 3x DA ever be a viable build for eldar. It breaks the design of the entire race and that is beyond disgusting.

Reducing damage makes them less hit-n-run which defeats the purpose of DA. All eldar units tend to be high damage, low durability, high cost to reinforce - warp spiders, dark reapers, fire dragons, DA, shees. There's a clear pattern there. I don't see how balance would be better with DA doing less damage and having more hp or vice versa. Mathematically it should all come out roughly the same, in fact, more damage over hp benefits 3x DA builds, but it is all about maintaining that thematic design they have. In a 1v1 you will NEVER see 3x DA blobbed up a-moving against an army in the early game because you need map control. So that damage side of it doesn't come into it and it is easier to bleed those rogue squads that are capping with your sneaky heroes or melee units.

Who said that eldar being power hungry is a problem? Are they even power hungry? I think that claim needs further qualification. Don't think they spend anymore power than SM, nids or orks, that's for sure. Also, I think the time to get the exarch is quite distinct from the time to get battle equipment, even now. Recall that the exarch gives a rather huge dps boost, not just a hp one. His problem of course is that he is not die-last.

Also, vs a good player one simply could not get away with just using the DA exarches for detection. That didn't save your shurikens from scout nades or stop the LA sneaking behind you. So I don't buy the idea that you "didn't need rangers before" and now you are forced to get them. Yes, you can't get detection elsewhere, but that pseudo-detection was weak as hell anyway, basically forced you to go rangers.

[Deflaktor]

Its pretty obvious that DA have been all over the place. They went from 300 req to 270 req, back to 300 and then again to 270. Health went from base to battle equipment to base yet again back to battle equipment. I think it would be worthwhile to try something different for them.

Before patch I often went for no power on DA, now it is definitely ineffective. So for me at least it is a must-buy, no matter how you play with DA.

How would base damage nerf benefit balance?
1. It would help SM and CSM against banshee opening on first encounter
2. It would give you the opportunity to leave DA vanilla, allowing you to focus your power elsewhere

Reducing damage makes them less hit-n-run which defeats the purpose of DA.

They cant do properly hit-n-run without fleet of foot anyway and would get their damage back with battle equipment.

more damage over hp benefits 3x DA builds, but it is all about maintaining that thematic design they have.

A guy who goes 3x DA would upgrade them as soon as possible so I think it does not really apply here. Either way I'm also against 3x DA builds.

it is easier to bleed those rogue squads that are capping with your sneaky heroes or melee units.

That is why I would rather have vanilla DA with 120 hp than 100 hp. I dont care about their damage in such a situation.

Also, vs a good player one simply could not get away with just using the DA exarches for detection. That didn't save your shurikens from scout nades or stop the LA sneaking behind you. So I don't buy the idea that you "didn't need rangers before" and now you are forced to get them. Yes, you can't get detection elsewhere, but that pseudo-detection was weak as hell anyway, basically forced you to go rangers.

This can be argued over. If you are a good player yourself you can kinda predict how and when the opponent will use infiltration.

EDIT: Also I want to see why the base HP nerf makes more sense (other than thematic feel). You telling me that it suits eldar more to be a glass canon, however we went the same direction for Dark Reapers. Their survivability has been buffed but their damage nerfed over the course of patches. And they also got an upgrade that brings back part of their old dps.

@Forestradio

Code: Select all

      (4 - 9/2)^2   =          (5 - 9/2)^2
     
sqrt( (4 - 9/2)^2 ) = +/-sqrt( (5 - 9/2)^2 )

(1)   4 - 9/2 = + (5 - 9/2)
(2)   4 - 9/2 = - (5 - 9/2)

(1)   4 - 9/2 =  5 - 9/2
(2)   4 - 9/2 = -5 + 9/2

(1)       4 = 5
(2)   8 - 9 = -10 + 9

(1)     0 =  1
(2)    -1 = -1