Some feedback on the AI

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Edorn
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Some feedback on the AI

Postby Edorn » Wed 23 Mar, 2016 9:30 am

Couldnt find a topic relating the AI, which is a really big part of the mod for me- the biggest in fact, as without it I wouldnt even play the game..yeah, big skirmish fan here, so I'll post it here.
The AI is fantastic, but I have two major issues with it ATM:
1. All faction (exluding nids I think) build too much vehicles instead of say...higher tier infantry, so every battle (especially since I modified popcap to 300) turns into tank/walker battles after 15 min or so. Is there a way I can maybe modify the AI or mod files to put a hard limit on some units?

2. The Imperial guard relies heavily on Catachan devils. It's a shame because they always use the same skin and it makes fighting different IG variants the same..wish they would focus more on guardsmen or even stormtroopers..

That's all for now, and again thank you for the mod, I havent played this much skirmish since Dark Crusade, I thought I will have to wait till DOW 3 to have large scale battles with functional AI.
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby Lulgrim » Thu 24 Mar, 2016 11:09 am

Sadly the DoW2 AI is not really functional or acceptable to begin with and it has no idea how to put up a fight. The mod has included some AI fixes mostly to maybe make it possible to finish a team game if a player drops near the end, but that's pretty much it. The AI just cannot contest even a low-level human player and it's probably not possible to fix in the context of a mod — it would require a full rewrite by the studio. I'm afraid tweaking purchase priorities won't salvage much when the AI will remain clueless of how to use the units.
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby Edorn » Thu 24 Mar, 2016 4:07 pm

Yup, the AI is a moron, and 1vs1 he's a joke, but it's fun playing 3v3 with 2 easy ai on my side, trying to stop hordes of ai units..and as bad as it is, the vanilla ai is a like playing vs a baby in comparison.
Unlike Starcraft 2 I'm not playing competitivly, just to pass time and scratch my WH40k itch (at least until BS:Gothic arrives).

Anyway just wanted to give some feedback I had, not like I'm waiting for a fix or godlike AI anytime in the future. :)
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Thu 24 Mar, 2016 6:19 pm

While the AI used to build multiple unit types in a 1v1 it now only spams the first T1 unit and upgrades it. KanKrusha might want to look at his latest patches again. This behavior is not present at all in 3v3s. There the AI actually performs very well for what its worth.
KanKrusha
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby KanKrusha » Sat 02 Apr, 2016 2:16 am

Thanks. Forehead --> wall

Edit - actually more 1v1 feedback good as I generally test in 2v2 for a number of reasons.
Needs to be over several games as AI will occasionally do weird builds l, which is a fun change, and I need what it builds most of the time.

At this time I think it just needs changes in the ai_tuning.info class ratings. From above posts a tone down on vehicles and a tone down on starting units
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby Edorn » Sat 02 Apr, 2016 9:13 am

Well, I played alot of games since I started this thread:
The only unit the AI kind of spam is Catachan Devils, and like you said the vehicle priority should be toned down. (wished I knew how to do that)

Other then that occasionally the AI just freeze, with units keep piling up at his HQ, happened to me yesterday VS Orks, they had a killakan and two trucks chilling there, once I destroyed a truck the AI suddenly woke up and started playing again, the game ended shortly so I cant tell if he really started playing or just attacking stuff on his LOS.
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby twitchthethird » Sat 02 Apr, 2016 9:57 am

I have to say, the AI in the Destroyer mod performs considerably better I think. I don't know if thats simply down to the massive increase in units on the field so they inherently explore more varied options - but it seems to me that the AI isn't 'beyond help'.

Similarly in Elite, I've played games versus the PC with friends of mine and every now and again, you have games where the AI becomes a whole other level of aggressive, I can think of one game in particular on Judgement of Carrion where we got absolutely stomped by Tyranid - but I just don't know what it is that triggers that switch?
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby ThePendulum » Sat 02 Apr, 2016 11:56 pm

The AI definitely doesn't tech up past the first tier for me, regardless of whatever difficulty I set it on, whenever I'm playing a skirmish as the only human player. What's weird though, is that it definitely tech'ed up to tier 3 when playing with one human friend. As an aside, would it be possible to use a separate AI mod with Elite mod? Or would that completely break the AI & Elite mod? Sorry, don't mean to derail.

On that note, I've found the AI to be incredibly smart with it's turret placement, if that's any consolation. Not sure if that came with the mod's AI tweaks, or if the vanilla AI was capable of that, but the AI was placing a line of turrets at about the halfway point of the map, and even set them up facing the right way! xD

Also, something I noticed with the vanilla AI, is that it has a tendency to just say screw it, and then gives up. As in, it wont even bother reinforcing units at a certain point, and those units just sit in their base doing nothing. Not so much with the Elite mod: it will keep throwing units at you until you either win, or get stomped. :D
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby KanKrusha » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 5:29 am

Pendulum, have you definitely got the latest version of Elite? Yes, you could completely swap all the AI files but then you might not be able to play on line (unless you played someone with the same files). Plus you would hurt my feelings :-) :-)

I dont know what does that AI freeze. I have seen it when they are capping the last point and also with vehicles in base. I think it is "building a mob" which is a set of code I haven't looked at because I am not even sure the functions are even called. If it is doing that it might be waiting for a start unit (scout etc) to start attacking.

Starting to sound like i might have the ratio to start attacking to high (ie the AI is wiating to gather an overwhelming force and unfotunatley vehicles only count as one model). Will wait for more feedback
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby ThePendulum » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 5:57 am

I downloaded the full installer for 2.5.1 and installed successfully, but then i didnt see the bug note where the in game version display still says 2.5 instead of the correct version, so then I installed the update as well.

Not sure if thats whats causing the tech up problem, but as for the AI just sitting in their base, thats only happened to me on the base game, not with the elite mod, but i think thats just a relic thing; this has happened to me in numerous relic games.

Sorry if I wasnt clear about that. The only reason I asked about the AI mod was *because of the tech up issue, but actually, i find it kind of fun just fighting nothing but tier one's, horde mode atyle onslaught. :D

I think i saw a thread somewhere around here saying someone else had an issue with the ai not teching up, but i cant remember. It's not even that they don't tech up, they dont even build anything but scouts or heretics or those zergling things. Either way though, i do love all of the stuff in this mod; the Ordo Malleus look effing fantastic! Amd the Black Templar (Elite) are to die for!

Question: Is it possible to give the black templar elite helmet to all three sm commanders? It really bothers me that the techmarine has a red generic helmet with black amd wgite armor. -,- lol

Not sure if that would fit with the lore or not though. Sorry if it doesn't.

P.S. The AI is quite aggressive in it's own right (in the Elite mod), aside from not being able to counter turret placements (because they don't tech up).
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby KanKrusha » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 8:28 pm

Hi

I think you might be destroying the AIs power nodes so they don't have any power income. A special feature of Elite is that the power nodes are not auto targetable which has the side effect the AI can't shoot them. This means if you cap a PowerPoint the AI can't take it back.

To play against the AI you must not capture their power points or if you do don't cap them
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby ThePendulum » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 9:24 pm

After playing some more, i tried not capping any power nodes but the power nodes closest to me and the issue still remains, however, the orks do in fact tech up. The orks so far have been the only race to tech up as AI.

Also, power nodes shouldnt have been an issie because lately I've also tried playing with high resources enabled.
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby Bert » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 11:59 pm

Hi.

I can confirm that the AI tends to spam vehicles now.
I rarely see these units:
Space Marine terminators, assault terminators and venerable dreadnoughts.
Imperial Guard storm troopers.
Tyranid tyrant guard, venom brood, swarmlord and carnifex.

These units are built too much (vehicles not included since that is a general issue):
Space Marine tactical marines from drop pod.
Imperial Guard catachan devils.
Tyranid zoanthropes.

Other issues:
Tactical marines always go for plasma over missile launcher. They build flamers, but only in tier 1.
Predator and chaos predator always go for lascannon.
Chaos dreadnought always go for missile launcher.
Imperial Guard heavy weapons team always go for autocannon over lascannon.
Guardian weapons team never upgrade to brightlance.
Apothecary and plague champion don't throw their grenades.
KanKrusha
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby KanKrusha » Mon 23 May, 2016 4:32 am

If anyone is interested in trying it out I just updated the Retail version AI after a 6 month leave of absence. I am fixing a bit more of the scripting so another update in a week or so :-)

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread. ... 1045460434

PS - apologies to Bert, i haven't fixed any stuff you pointed out. I will incorporate your feedback. Sorry, Tacs are unfixable because their unique mechanic breaks the AI so I have locked them into plasma
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Mon 23 May, 2016 8:30 am

I just tried your mod and the AI still spams T1 units. I will investigate further but so far it looks like T1 units are being spammed only. If you let the AI capture enough power and it goes T2 or T3 different units will come out but maybe only a Bloodcrusher into a Phobos e.g.
I have observed this behavior in Elite 1v1s against your AI and now also with this mod in the retail version.
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby KanKrusha » Mon 23 May, 2016 9:37 am

That is so weird, I am struggling to get it to build enough T1 units. Mind you I am testing AI v AI and in that situation it accumulates a lot of power so that triggers a tech up instead of building units.

Edit - you gave me an idea and I think i have nailed it now
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby Edorn » Sun 12 Jun, 2016 9:03 pm

Yo KK, just had to tell you of the game I just had, IG vs Orks, 3v3 all expert- what a match..the best in all my DOW years (including DOW1)
Both sides used ALL of their arsenal, orks were using mass infantry included stuff ive never seen them use like flash gitz and tankbustas, the IG forces (sporting steel legion skin) used all their infantry except spotters, they called leman russ and upgraded them, and called baneblades that clashed with the greenskin battlewagons.
I use 300 pop cap, things got insane, 90% of the battlefield was scorched earth by the end of the match (1000 victory point), felt like one of the hive city battles from the armageddon series.
Wish I knew what made the AI give me such an amazing game, yesterday I played the same setup (different map) and the orks spammed tanks which fell quickly to my AV hunting teams.
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby KanKrusha » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 6:01 am

Random numbers :-)

I will tone down the variation that randomness gives.
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby KanKrusha » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 12:28 am

Retail version updated if anyone interested, major improvements (finally living up to my own advertising)

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread. ... 1045583495
Last edited by KanKrusha on Sun 03 Jul, 2016 4:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby KanKrusha » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 4:53 am

Actually, please can I get some advice? I have managed to be able to tell the AI when the ai's hero is dead (this is actually quite an achievement!). This means I can adapt behaviour when this happens, currently I am down grading overall "aggression" which is just the likelihood of advancing against a nearby unit or building (instead of capping) And also the inverse of obeying a retreat command

So, when your hero is dead as a human what do you do about attacking and defending with regards to VPs, power points, hq and req points? Some of these things are obvious but I would like some "crowd sourcing" on what to do. It would be helpful to state it in terms of priority of either attack, defend or capture and the target

Eg increase defense priority in hq, decrease attack priority on enemy hq, power points and vps, increase capture priority for req points
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby Torpid » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 5:32 pm

Would it be possible to make them blob up with allies more when their own hero is dead? that seems most reasonable because rather generically a hero being dead doesn't matter anymore than losing any other single unit. What do I do if one of my shootas is wiped early on?

It gets very complex. It depends on what is the rest of my composition like, have I been beating the foe before now? What is their composition, what is their race, what is the map, etc etc.

One thing you could maybe try was making them go for req points more if their hero is dead so they can buy them back.

Question though.

The AI clearly have a big boost by default to to their res incomes. But is that just like a flat bonus they get from their hq at the start? Orrr, is it that all sources of income get multiplied by a certain amount. If its the former it makes capping req points worthless for the AI. If the latter not so much...
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby KanKrusha » Sun 03 Jul, 2016 7:59 pm

I think it is a multiplier on all sources of income. Normal Difficulty only gets a small multiplier.

I think defensive blobbing will occur from what I am doing. It's a side effect rather than an instruction to blob but it seems to work.
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Mon 04 Jul, 2016 9:11 pm

I remember seeing a multiplier in the files (1.5x or 2x).
When I get to my Pc again I will play a few games with your improved Ai and give you some feedback.
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby KanKrusha » Fri 08 Jul, 2016 2:35 am

I just updated it again to version 2.8. I am trying to get the AI to lead with grenade throws.
http://forums.relicnews.com/forumdispla ... etek-Cabal

I will be grateful for feedback if any of the leading distances are too short:

1. If the target unit is not moving there is no lead

2. lead on retreating target units is big - this is the hardest to calibrate

3. if the target unit is adjacent or mixed in with the casting squad it will try and toss just behind the attacking squad

4. if the target unit is a normal unit and is moving it will lead just in front - seems pretty good

5. if he target unit is a fast melee unit and is moving it will lead a bit more in front (but not if the two units are adjacent or mixed in )

You should also see a lot less (but not zero) friendly fire

When I come back from holiday (a week's skiing I have to pack for) I will try and use the Elite labbing build to release a version for elite mod.
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby KanKrusha » Sat 20 Aug, 2016 1:42 am

Version 2.9 of the AI for retail released

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread. ... -July-2016
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby KanKrusha » Mon 19 Sep, 2016 8:01 am

New retail version of AI posted. I am trying to test it with elite but I seem to be a retard when it comes to combining mods :-

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread. ... -July-2016
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Black Relic
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby Black Relic » Mon 19 Sep, 2016 8:02 pm

^^^ same lol.
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54
KanKrusha
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby KanKrusha » Tue 20 Sep, 2016 7:57 am

Aha, I am not a retard anymore! Watch this space

Okay, I am still a retard but I finally managed to utilise something Windu gave me 9 months ago
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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby KanKrusha » Tue 20 Sep, 2016 8:01 pm

This is the current "final" version of my AI. I am working on some new script but the last little function I wrote took 6 weeks to get to work so I may never get this new stuff working.

This may cause sync errors with other players (might not too which would be interesting)

If you don't know where your Elite folder is then please do not try this. I am not smart enough to make an installer.

ONE. BEFORE YOU INSTALL either:
1. Make a safe copy of your elite folder that you can revert to
or 2. Be prepared to re-install elite after testing
or 3. Just wait for the next version of elite to be released

TWO. DOWNLOAD AND EXTRACT THE FILES
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9O7D ... 3FkMlc1Rjg

There should be two bat files and a simulation folder

THREE. PASTE THE FILES INTO THE Config FOLDER OF YOUR ELITE FOLDER
path should be something like this C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\dawn of war ii - retribution\Elite\Config

FOUR. DOUBLE CLICK ON EACH bat file
update_kk_attrib_files and
update_kk_data_ai

FIVE. LAUNCH USING YOUR NORMAL ELITE FOLDER
To test watch an ai as warp spider, if he is jumping in combat then you have successfully installed

SIX. PLEASE WATCH AI PLAY AS ORDO MALLEUS AND CHAOS -- these are the 2 I am worried will cause crashes
You can set up as four AI players with yourself as an observer. Just let it run, go have a cup of tea. Check back see if it comes up with "AI ERROR"
Also, watch build orders.

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Re: Some feedback on the AI

Postby KanKrusha » Fri 30 Sep, 2016 8:57 pm

Does anyone think allowing IG AI to call in bunkers is a good idea? I am worried the AI will lose them to the player.

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