Vanilla is better

[Swift]

This thread:



But seriously, Choko, I appreciate the nature of Elite has torn all your strategies out of your hands, but start adapting. A lot of the figures such as the "OP Heretic Champion" you keep pulling up... are retail problems. You cannot spin a retail issue carried over to Elite as an Elite mod issue. And the facts out there are that these units are half the time nerfed or changed anyway or their in the pipeline for changes in the 2.5 hotfix/2.5.1 which by the way, is just round the corner.

I think this thread is becoming a compost heap of old arguments throw away and recycled as the same rubbish again and again. Just play the mod a different way, your opinion of it is your own and it's very special, but we're tired of hearing it again and again. Maybe what you say has merit, I don't know, I know as much about this game as I do quantum mechanics you're far more experienced than I, but just try it a different way, play other factions against Eldar and see how they play out, maybe they aren't so deadbeat UP as you make them out.

You never know, we might make a miracle happen.

[ChokoBambus]

The German tournament thingy was common knowledge for anyone who knew anyone about DoW2, even during the tournament. It was hilarious. It had nothing to do with money, nor did I get any, nor did we expected to get any. It was a prank that got out of hand. So there is no reputation to be gain nor lost there. And how long has it been? 5 years. Who gives a crap!

And yes, I am calling you out on Chaos design. Not balance, but design. But somehow you seem to be reading every even mildly negative comment as a direct assault on your person.

Hes, you have reduced heretic dps, yet 2 heretics will wipe out any melee squad due to consecutive doom blasts. You said that you have nerfed ToN, and its true, I did my homework, yet I have still seen a ToN heretic instant kill a slugga squad. It was on in a casted game I have watched 2 days ago. So nothing much has changed there, has it?

Chaos, any every other race, had extremes in performance and gaping holes in design. In Elite, the extremes in performance have been ironed out sporadically, and the holes in the rooster as well. But the reasons they have existed have been ignored for the most part. Chaos is more versatile in the early game, SM has a much easier time in the early game so as soon as tier3 hits, which is almost always now due to the blades that have pressured them been ironed out and dulled, BAM!!! Terminators!!

You, IMHO, have huge inconsistencies when it comes to Race by Race design. More expensive squads losing to weaker squads to to far more limited scaling. Entire tier1 roosters not scaling compared to entire tier 1 roosters scaling even though their tier1 performance is balanced vs each other. Adding a proper tier 3 to some but not to others while preaching equality across tiers.

So yes, I am calling you out on some design choices. If I were you I would be glad to get some feedback from someone with a fresh view, even if its negative on some things. But hey, perhaps you like the "Master gave Dobby a sock" approach. If so, I you wont get it from me.

Have a nice day sir!

@Swiftsabre: I am adapting, I have managed to beat some of the better guys in the mod a couple of times even if I do lose more then i win. The issue is, that in some matchups, I have never been so pressured with the feeling that I am playing against a clock. Like I have said in other topics. Eldar units are very fine in the tier that they come in, but they scale poorly. Hence if you miss the opportunity to do significant damage, you are at a disadvantage. This has been the case in pretty much every VoD or replay I have watched as well. The clock is real. Either snowball or .. lose. And its far harder to snowball here.

[Toilailee]

Uhh Choko it’s been like 5 years and you haven’t changed a bit. Still acting like the whole damn world exists only to serve you and your whims, and insulting everything and everyone you don’t like. Take a chillpill and grow up already, it’ll be good for your blood pressure.

[Atlas]

Final warning before I just shut this thread down period.

[Gorbles]

EDIT: nevermind, saw Atlas' post

[Dark Riku]

Chocko, hearing you say stuff about the retail SM - Eldar MU is just XD
Just shows how you were carried by your race and didn't know anything about overall balance.

Elite has some races that are clearly over tuned, like Chaos being absolutely batshit. Raptors and unkillable heretic champs that scale them by 20%. Who ever thought that was a good idea must have been smoking something strong.

But it is expected to be heavily Chaos biased in Elite, isnt it?

Absolute batshit? Heretics are pretty much worthless now in melee combat. Rest has already been addressed by Caeltos and others.

The German tournament thingy ... It was a prank that got out of hand. So there is no reputation to be gain nor lost there. And how long has it been? 5 years. Who gives a crap!

After the fact has been discovered, it's considered a prank, how handy. But what if nobody noticed? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be a "prank" any more.

And yes, I am calling you out on Chaos design. Not balance, but design. But somehow you seem to be reading every even mildly negative comment as a direct assault on your person.

Chaos design is just fine, only "big" problems atm are, as Nurland already stated, the autocannon havocs and PM's. I'm even thinking Tics could use a small buff.

Hes, you have reduced heretic dps, yet 2 heretics will wipe out any melee squad due to consecutive doom blasts. You said that you have nerfed ToN, and its true, I did my homework, yet I have still seen a ToN heretic instant kill a slugga squad. It was on in a casted game I have watched 2 days ago. So nothing much has changed there, has it?

ToN tics do not instakill slugga squads. Stop overreacting.

The rest of your post is just filled with untruths again so not going to bother.

[ChokoBambus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiTpjDS ... e=youtu.be

heretics one shotting sluggas with ToN. Around the 6:25 mark.

[HansMoleman]

Thats of course the power of any AOE ability when you bunch all your models in a tiny pixel instead of clicking away to spread them apart to lessen the AOE dmg. This shit happens with all abilities and not just TON. It was deserved too when unupgraded sluggas were engaging in a fight with aspiring champion heretics around the 6 minute margin. You can approximate you and your opponent to have around 100 red - 150 red by that time. Its just one of the things you need to know in the Match Up vs Plague Champion Players.

[Dark Riku]

Unupgraded, level 1 sluggas, versus level 2 aspiring champion heretics with ToN with the best possible model blowing up, the blast didn't instantly kill them either.

[GuruSkippy]

dramaaaaaaaaaa !!!
ow god, I missed this

[Dark Riku]

Dat Necron Overlord resurrecting all dem old players.

[Sturnn]

Dat Necron Overlord resurrecting all dem old players.

Quite so. Can't wait for Spirit and Edjuth to make appearance.

[Paranoid Kamikaze]

Atlas, I will entrust you with the holy DoW 2 picture of drama thread cleaning. It has served me well for years and now it is time for me to pass it on to the next generation.

[Asmon]

Since you're at it, find me the It's Eldar don't panic one that I've been searching for ages. Lost it somewhere on GR.

[Metal C0Mmander]

Are you by chance speaking of this picture? If you use it do so in good concience for the obvious amount of grief it could cause.

[Asmon]

Nope, not this one. The one I'm talking about is colourful and sparkly.

[Edtjuh]

Dat Necron Overlord resurrecting all dem old players.

Quite so. Can't wait for Spirit and Edjuth to make appearance.

At least get my name right

[Atlas]

The necro is real :O

Does this work kind of like the Bloody Mary ritual?

[Sturnn]

At least get my name right

Apologies xD but still you showed up.

Looks like Old Ones are back or its some fucking troll fest.

[Lulgrim]

[Paranoid Kamikaze]

Since you're at it, find me the It's Eldar don't panic one that I've been searching for ages. Lost it somewhere on GR.

Couldn't find it, but got this one instead.

[Asmon]

Still pretty good I guess =)

[Crewfinity]

At least get my name right

Apologies xD but still you showed up.

Looks like Old Ones are back or its some fucking troll fest.

When you create a forum account just to correct a misspelling of your name....

[Edtjuh]

Well it's that or bitch about Elite with zero experience.

I only see Toil/Tex/Riku/Cael play (the 'old' crew) or that's what I see from the casts. It's pretty cool to watch this game, but the level compared to back in the day has changed drastically. Also, everything has changed, so it's something new and fresh. New units, new abilities, new changes - I can't comment on it at all seeing as I suck at this game (let alone play besides that 1 game against Riku), but you just have to adapt and learn it over again.
Al tough I wasn't a major fan of Elite during the Vanilla days, mostly because of the changes, some things just didn't make sense or were weird in general (looking at you Chaos lol).

What I am trying to say it. Glory days are over, just enjoy it, be happy this game is alive due to people creating/maintaining this game. Whatever they're doing, It's working and the people are coming back.

[Caeltos]

I think back in the earlier stages of ELITE, I was just abit too agressive with my approaches to Chaos, I mean - even in vanilla their Aspiring Champion for CSM Is so god damn awful, and serves no purpoes other then being a glorified model with a heftier pricetag. It was pretty evident that Chaos was rushed out the gate - which kinda sucks, because they had some neat concept for the faction itself. So it was like desperately trying to make things work, and make stuff that didn't work, actually work - but things never really truely goes as planned.

This type of issue happends even on AAA blockbuster super-games when they balance stuff. It's really difficult when you've got something that's broken, and then you un-make the broken part, and introduce another aspect of pre-underperforming part which in-return becomes the next broken thing. Then you rework it, and it becomes obselete, then you improve it's baseline stats, and it becomes good again. It's a helluva project. I can just reference to like, MOBA games and stuff like that with how things go.

It ultimately just became like 'Oh hey, you've got worships, and your T3 is T2' and your T3 is broken if you reach it. Then they actually made GUO not so god damn stupid, and people realised that T2 was like the bomb, and there was no reason to go T3 unless you wanted to rofltroll practically. I blame the unit design of Bloodletters/Plague Marines and Bloodcrusher.

So ideally, you just set yourself up for good transitional T2 gameplay, since T3 was more or less obselete. Now in ELITE, Bloodletters had their design more or less 'repurposed', and Raptors serves as a transitional optional unit. If you go Raptor T1, going Bloodletters in T2 might not make alot of sense in alot of scenarios. However, if you're planning ahead to go Bloodletters, you may need to opt-for hard-counter AV options, so csm, tic, havoc > bloodletter is viable. Where if you go raptors, you might look for builds that centers around non-havoc play (since you're playing more on the offensive) you can opt for Plague Marines straight T2.

It was funny tho, since the introduction of Raptors at first, and how things have panned out. It's been truely quite cool, and fun both being the observant, and as the player to see how it all pans out. People still wanted to go for these 2x CSM builds, and then incorporate Raptors into that, and it was sooooooooo BAD (and it was to be expected, due to lack of transitional options) since bloodletters had power weapons back then as well (still do). So your AV options were havoc, or plague marines - but you lacked so much oomph, and the bleed was pretty severe. So now it's more common to expect Raptors in certain comps, and then foresee the consequential transitional adapations in the mid-game. I mean, back in retail you didn't have this much flexibility.

Thing is at the end of the day - I'm doing this because I like the game, and people like the mod. I know it's not everyones cup of tea, but that's fine. I can't make everyone happy, the mod isn't perfect, probably never will be. I just hope I can make it more fun and enjoyable as time goes on, and I'd like to believe I've succeded, considering what has happend since the start, to where we are now.

[Nurland]

Well it's that or bitch about Elite with zero experience.

I only see Toil/Tex/Riku/Cael play (the 'old' crew) or that's what I see from the casts. It's pretty cool to watch this game, but the level compared to back in the day has changed drastically. Also, everything has changed, so it's something new and fresh. New units, new abilities, new changes - I can't comment on it at all seeing as I suck at this game (let alone play besides that 1 game against Riku), but you just have to adapt and learn it over again.
Al tough I wasn't a major fan of Elite during the Vanilla days, mostly because of the changes, some things just didn't make sense or were weird in general (looking at you Chaos lol).

What I am trying to say it. Glory days are over, just enjoy it, be happy this game is alive due to people creating/maintaining this game. Whatever they're doing, It's working and the people are coming back.

There has been an influx of older players fairly recently. Choko, PaperBag, Tyranidterror, HARRYYY. Also I hear GuruSkippy was spotted the other day. Vindi has also apparently done a couple games. Locklear has been playing games again as well as Farzo60 it seems.

Most of the old schoolers who haven't just recently started again play fairly rarely and more for the luls than before.

Anyway nice to see some old higher lever players showing up to the mod

[GuruSkippy]

yeah, played 3 games two days ago.

mod wise (and ork wise), I don't really see a big difference with vanilla to be honest.

game wise.... god...
I'm too much used to COH2, hotkeys, no command lag, VPs speed difference, reverse order, capping order on mini map...
Can't wait for DOW3 to resolve these.

[PaperBaG]

It'd be more fun for us if everyone wasn't all about 3v3, vanilla had a decent balance of each game type or at least it seemed

[HARRYY]

hey Guru!

[Swift]

It'd be more fun for us if everyone wasn't all about 3v3, vanilla had a decent balance of each game type or at least it seemed

Game is old, it's to eb expected the community becomes more casual. Still I think ESL has made a lot more people try 1v1 which is great, so the only gamemode not played much now is 2v2.