Vanilla is better

Generic non-balance topics.
ChokoBambus
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Vanilla is better

Postby ChokoBambus » Wed 24 Feb, 2016 10:52 am

After a long while I have started playing dow2 again because I saw the release of a new Elite mod balance patch. After the initial WoW i have come to the realization that despite offering many new a option unit and upgrade wise, dow2elite actually has far less playing styles, namely only one.

Every single eccentric strategy or map movement has been nerfed or pretty much removed from the game. First and foremost is snipers and mobility skills. Secondly, due to a nature of forced engagement, the overall threat of gen bashing imbalance is even more present.

From my perspective as an Eldar WSE player dow2elite is bad. My whole gamestyle is removed from the game and the vanilla based unit to unit interactions and expected results are no longer there.

Guardians are far worse then in vanilla. They also scale far worse into tier2 due to lower hp and weaker damage reduction boon.
Banshees are better, but everything around them is better so it does not matter.
Rangers are absolute trash.
Shurikens are worse off due to additions or improved viability of other races flanking and jump options.

And this is just tier1. Come tier2 other races explode with options and dirt cheap upgrades. On the flip side You have to pay an arm and a leg for something that is not really THAT impactful. Lets not forget the over priced and under performing WS who cant really punish bad retreats anymore.

So, to cut this short, I prefer the vanilla dow2 gameplay to that of elite. Elite selectively removed eccentric stuff that made for interesting tempo and movement counters while forcing direct combat, all the while buffing cost efficiency of direct combat units. I dislike this, dow2 is not about combat it is about map control, at least 1v1. And Eldar are terrible.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby DandyFrontline » Wed 24 Feb, 2016 10:58 am

L2P thread

P.S. Actually totally agree - 2 snipers one-shotting a HI model without a chance to react is so much more fun. Playing against 6+ snipers spam one-shotting whole squad is so much more fun. Toxic cloud that kill whole IG army without a chance to retreat is so much fun. SM master build with FC with Armor of alacrity + OP thunder hammers that wipes out whole armies + Librarian with wails of time + ASM is soooo much fun. IG stormtroopers with meltas that gives no chance to enemy vehicles is sooooo much fun. Almost useless dreads are sooooo nice that even bloodletters can take it down easily. Oh, not broken catachans that with 'move, move, move' + medkit become a oneman army is nice as well (actually even without those buff rapes everything). What about not broken IG setup team? Or the fact everything in IG army costs so much Pop cap that 2 upgraded GM squads + ogryns + BB is all your army you can build. Oh, also just love double sluggas with nob (suppression immunity + huge damage reduction) and free wartrukk strategy. Hey, and what about that fun Force commander with termi armor and flamer that make the enemy to play without power nodes for the rest of the game? Yea, just loooove it. Surely not broken vanilla is so much better i can continue this list of stupid things forever
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Dark Riku
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 24 Feb, 2016 12:05 pm

ChokoBambus wrote:...
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Dark Riku
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 24 Feb, 2016 12:40 pm

Retail only has 1 play style and it's the same one over and over again with the same races. If you want to win anyway.
Elite offers a lot more variety in this regard.

Do some research. Your statements aren't correct.

Example:
Guardians - Dire Avengers
Req: 300 - 270 (cheaper reinforcements, ...)
Base HP: 500 - 600
With BE: 665 - 600
Warlock HP: 250 -275
--> available T1, small detection radius, come T2 enables 20% ranged damage reduction (vs retail's 17.5%)

What exactly got better that made banshees "bad"? °_O Shees still wreck face it's not even funny.
Rangers aren't this bullshit one shotting unit any more. That's a good thing.
They still do what they did before, offer you shotgun blast across the map and the best sight with detection range out there with further support abilities.
Shurycans are still this stupid powerhouse of a suppression team. You can even upgrade it to a brightlance come T2!
Setup were always vulnerable to flanks, that's why you protect those flanks and in case of Eldar, getting a 2nd shurycan is almost never a bad idea.

Warp spiders still do punish bad retreats... They just aren't as toxic any more, same thing with banshees. They used to punish "good" retreats too.

40K is about capping points? :) Did you ever read any fluff at all? Controlling the map is a part of the game, it should not be the only thing going on -.-
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby saltychipmunk » Wed 24 Feb, 2016 1:01 pm

i think the op is a bit biased since retail eldar were lopsided in that half their units were too good and the other half were definitively shit. same with wargear. either it was game breakingly op or a waste of space .

What elite did or is trying to do is mellow out the op stuff and elevate the other stuff.
For example guardians were often over reliant on their t1 wargear upgrade for everything. it was their hp, it was their utility it was everything. but now that the hp portion of it was more or less moved to their base or other upgrades it makes guardians much better as a unit independent of the upgrade.

eldar had no ranged direct damage counter to heavy infantry, you either had indirect via artillery and wraith guard or you had melee. this was really notable when you had to deal with terminators since terminators could simply out last every eldar melee unit in the game on hp pool alone.

Yes banshees lost some chase potential but they were made cheaper and thus less bleed heavy since a portion of their t1 hp upgrade was rolled into the base unit.
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Swift
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Swift » Wed 24 Feb, 2016 1:37 pm

Then play vanilla.

I will agree with you that snipers in Elite are crap, but it's better than sniper spam (coming from a Plague Champion here).
The internal battery has run dry, the game can now be played. However, clock based events will no longer occur.
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Forestradio
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Forestradio » Wed 24 Feb, 2016 2:42 pm

make an elaborate and constructive post backed up with some replay evidence and solid reasoning about what you find distasteful (in terms of general gameplay) or underpowered (with eldar/wse), and I'm sure that Caeltos will listen to it
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Asmon
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Asmon » Wed 24 Feb, 2016 7:25 pm

Everything's changed and you don't feel the same Choko ;>

Give it some time, at first I was disappointed by the mod too. It took me long enough to actually install it for I was affraid to adapt. Now things are funnier and much less broken, even if everything isn't fresh and sweet (for instance Riku is still out there).
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Ace of Swords
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Ace of Swords » Wed 24 Feb, 2016 7:44 pm

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Also IIRC DAs actually get more HP due to an hidden bonus they get with T2, I may be wrong on that though.
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MaxPower
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby MaxPower » Wed 24 Feb, 2016 8:01 pm

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On a more serious note, i think Coconut is better than Vanilla and even Chocola is better then Vanilla, but you can decided for yourself.

Coconut
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Vanilla
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Chocola
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Fr33man1800
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Fr33man1800 » Wed 24 Feb, 2016 9:33 pm

Sorry not to be more constructive but



https://youtu.be/Xbk1nHaRBSM
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Dark Riku
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 24 Feb, 2016 9:35 pm

Yeah, a black box isn't very constructive :)
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Atlas » Thu 25 Feb, 2016 4:12 am

Ok guys, I think that's about enough here.
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Oddnerd
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Oddnerd » Thu 25 Feb, 2016 4:25 am

Literally "I had a bad game and need to rant": the thread.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Gorbles » Thu 25 Feb, 2016 3:30 pm

The amount of kneejerk responses to criticism in this community, notably from people that despise any form of kneejerk defense of Relic, is highly amusing.

There has always been an Eldar-specific bias prevalent in the greater community (most concentrated in GameReplays when that site was actually alive), from perceptions based on "Dawn of Eldar" which is an article a good decade out of date created by the results of ingame balance engineered by designers and balance team members that haven't been at Relic for years (with exceptions, of course).

Nobody is immune to bias. Y'all might get a more favourable reception out of your bubble if you didn't trash every competing idea that went against the prevalent status quo.

For example, the point about Shees being good, but all other races also being good, is completely on-point (at least in theory). All races have been buffed in ELITE. Some parts of some races, some strategies, have been nerfed, sure. But that doesn't mean that on average all races are more potent especially if you know how to use them.

Rangers no longer being murder-machines is also good, but to pretend that they don't have some conceptual issues is also laughable. A stealth unit that focuses on damage and utility being forced to deal less damage but rely on existing utility . . . well, it's hard to get the balance right. I know some folks here know that already - it's why Rangers have been such a hard unit to get "right". But it's hard to debate this when you get the comments you've seen in this thread, and people continuing after a moderator actually tells people to stop. There's no fear of reprisal, no fear of even being told off. "It's all a bit of a laugh, right?"

But yeah. That attitude won't get you very far, and from the perspective of someone who watches you all lord it over how "unprofessional" Relic are, it's simply hilarious. Keep it up :D
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Lulgrim » Thu 25 Feb, 2016 4:38 pm

I don't follow, who exactly should git profeshunal (in what) and drop the attitude to get further (in what)?
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Kvn » Thu 25 Feb, 2016 4:56 pm

Gorb wrote:The amount of kneejerk responses to criticism in this community, notably from people that despise any form of kneejerk defense of Relic, is highly amusing.

There has always been an Eldar-specific bias prevalent in the greater community (most concentrated in GameReplays when that site was actually alive), from perceptions based on "Dawn of Eldar" which is an article a good decade out of date created by the results of ingame balance engineered by designers and balance team members that haven't been at Relic for years (with exceptions, of course).

Nobody is immune to bias. Y'all might get a more favourable reception out of your bubble if you didn't trash every competing idea that went against the prevalent status quo.

For example, the point about Shees being good, but all other races also being good, is completely on-point (at least in theory). All races have been buffed in ELITE. Some parts of some races, some strategies, have been nerfed, sure. But that doesn't mean that on average all races are more potent especially if you know how to use them.

Rangers no longer being murder-machines is also good, but to pretend that they don't have some conceptual issues is also laughable. A stealth unit that focuses on damage and utility being forced to deal less damage but rely on existing utility . . . well, it's hard to get the balance right. I know some folks here know that already - it's why Rangers have been such a hard unit to get "right". But it's hard to debate this when you get the comments you've seen in this thread, and people continuing after a moderator actually tells people to stop. There's no fear of reprisal, no fear of even being told off. "It's all a bit of a laugh, right?"

But yeah. That attitude won't get you very far, and from the perspective of someone who watches you all lord it over how "unprofessional" Relic are, it's simply hilarious. Keep it up :D


I'm pretty sure the issue stems more from the fact that the criticism of the mod is stated as fact, rather than proposed. The title "Vanilla is better" leaves very little open to interpretation, and gives off a hostile you're-doing-it-wrong-because-I-say-so vibe rather than a constructive look at how things might be improved, or if they need to be in the first place.

He does have points. Rangers are often bad and scale poorly, that's true. Banshees are less frightening than they used to be, also a valid thing to mention. But, regardless of whether his statements hold merit or not, his presentation is openly derogatory, which is going to get a derogatory response.

Just as an example:

"I'm not a fan of rap music. The lack of variety in the vocals makes it feel like they're talking more than singing"

"Rap music sucks! All they do is talk in rhymes. No skill. Need to learn how to make real music."

Both have the same general message, but one is far more polite and more likely to be received as an honest criticism rather than simple bashing. If you go to a website well known for its one genera of music and start telling them "this sucks, that is so much better" it's going to get a hostile response. People don't like having something they enjoy put down and having their own views of it invalidated by opinions stated as fact.
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Forestradio
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Forestradio » Thu 25 Feb, 2016 4:57 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:Also IIRC DAs actually get more HP due to an hidden bonus they get with T2, I may be wrong on that though.
they don't, t2 is just when embolden/passive dmg resistance aura become available
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Cyris
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Cyris » Thu 25 Feb, 2016 4:57 pm

Honestly, what on earth else would you expect. Show up on a games message board and tell everyone their game sucks? What game community ever is gonna welcome that with open arms? Heck, I was suprised there was this little flame. Even Riku, a font of unending Eldar hate, took the time to break down a number of the points made.

As a new Eldar player, I agree with some of the underlying complains. Eldar have had some of their best toys taken away, but in a lot of cases interesting but less toxic tools have been added in their place. There are constructive ways you can bring this up, and then there is the way the OP did - lecturing from a stance of authority while making largely subjective, and vauge, claims. I appreciate the breakdowns he did get into, and I think there is a smart player in there, but overall it was a forgettable rant post.

Asmon summed it up best:
Asmon wrote:Give it some time, at first I was disappointed by the mod too. It took me long enough to actually install it for I was affraid to adapt. Now things are funnier and much less broken, even if everything isn't fresh and sweet (for instance Riku is still out there).

Edit: Ok, kvn also crushed it. OP didn't come here to discuss Eldar, he came to shit on things that made him mad.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Tinibombini » Thu 25 Feb, 2016 6:55 pm

I just want to echo Cyrus' comments. Choko Bambus' post wasn't about approaching this mod productively.

I wanted him play on BBOS' stream yesterday and just get destroyed many, many times. The comments he made ingame reflect that he knows very little about the mod. Some examples:

- Plague Champion shrine allows reinforce? (wasn't that in retail?)
- what are those (referring to Chosen PM)? what do they do?
- drop pod gives new tacs, since when?
- how did opponents shees beat my shees (Choko's had aspect of strength vs. aspect of speed)

These comments/questions all show that Choko has no real knowledge of the mod. The mod changed the game and I can see why he is frustrated, he still plays the exact same way as when Harlequin would cast him way back when.

Gorb, as usual, is just trolling.
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Ace of Swords
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Ace of Swords » Thu 25 Feb, 2016 7:14 pm

Tinibombini wrote:I just want to echo Cyrus' comments. Choko Bambus' post wasn't about approaching this mod productively.

I wanted him play on BBOS' stream yesterday and just get destroyed many, many times. The comments he made ingame reflect that he knows very little about the mod. Some examples:

- Plague Champion shrine allows reinforce? (wasn't that in retail?)
- what are those (referring to Chosen PM)? what do they do?
- drop pod gives new tacs, since when?
- how did opponents shees beat my shees (Choko's had aspect of strength vs. aspect of speed)

These comments/questions all show that Choko has no real knowledge of the mod. The mod changed the game and I can see why he is frustrated, he still plays the exact same way as when Harlequin would cast him way back when.

Gorb, as usual, is just trolling.


+1 to this, the comment about the blight nade was pretty funny too 8-)
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Thu 25 Feb, 2016 7:28 pm

Choko, I really don't get why you're saying what you're saying. You've been playing for... 2 days... And you think you can say how the balance is in the game? I can see all the games you've been playing on the ladder and you're honestly losing against people you really shouldn't be if you're going to be making statements like these. Plus, do you really think people use units to their fullest? Rangers especially have always been badass for their utility, but no one seems to be using it.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Gorbles » Fri 26 Feb, 2016 9:55 am

Kvn wrote:I'm pretty sure the issue stems more from the fact that the criticism of the mod is stated as fact, rather than proposed. The title "Vanilla is better" leaves very little open to interpretation, and gives off a hostile you're-doing-it-wrong-because-I-say-so vibe rather than a constructive look at how things might be improved, or if they need to be in the first place.

He does have points. Rangers are often bad and scale poorly, that's true. Banshees are less frightening than they used to be, also a valid thing to mention. But, regardless of whether his statements hold merit or not, his presentation is openly derogatory, which is going to get a derogatory response.

Just as an example:

"I'm not a fan of rap music. The lack of variety in the vocals makes it feel like they're talking more than singing"

"Rap music sucks! All they do is talk in rhymes. No skill. Need to learn how to make real music."

Both have the same general message, but one is far more polite and more likely to be received as an honest criticism rather than simple bashing. If you go to a website well known for its one genera of music and start telling them "this sucks, that is so much better" it's going to get a hostile response. People don't like having something they enjoy put down and having their own views of it invalidated by opinions stated as fact.

People state things as facts all the time - see the post I quote below. I don't see anyone picking up on people stating as a fact that I'm trolling :p

That's what I mean about perception. Choko might be new to ELITE, but he isn't new to DoW II. Heck I'm not even sticking up for the guy - heaven knows we didn't get on in the past (as much as anyone remembers forum nonsense and petty arguments from half a decade ago), I'm criticising the prevalent attitude on these boards, from months of lurking.

Any criticism is generally, immediately countered by claims of "how long have you been playing / how good are you at ELITE / you're a noob try harder". Only people "in" the group can debate balance favourably without being dumped on. If any other community attempted that it wouldn't be a community for long - this is only self-sustaining because you're core players of a particular game mod. Why do you think Caeltos doesn't bother with forum threads much? It's a waste of time and effort, time and effort better spent elsewhere.

There are a core of posters (not just Riku) that treat this place like their personal dumping grounds. It doesn't engender open debate, even if the OP is confused, angry, or dismissive. "they're being mad so we should be mad too" is a dumb excuse to act mad, and always has been.

But hey, I tried.

Tinibombini wrote:Gorb, as usual, is just trolling.

One-post account solely to echo another poster and call me a troll. I'd call it cute except it's so lacking in imagination.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby ChokoBambus » Fri 26 Feb, 2016 10:36 am

While I may have been under the influence of the WoW and WTF moments in the game when i opened the topic and came off as dismissive, the fact is that i have the utmost respect for what you guys have done here.

The issue at hand is that, when the mod was made, some of the reasons as to why certain extreme things existed were forgotten and evertyhing was streamlined.

By design, Eldar in vanilla were very cost ineffective but had leaders that could scale the squads pretty decently come tier2 to make them semi cost effective in certain situations. The point of tier1 play was to not bleed heavily and the goal of the opponent was to bleed guardians and banshees. To have a proper response to that, strong shurikens and 160 damage rangers existed. However, Eldar gen bashing potential was abysmal so any bleeds that could be made would have been rather a small step towards the opponents power farm. On the flip side, the threat of gen bashing was very existing for eldar all the time because many a squad the opponents had was either very fast and cheap or had the flamer upgrade, or both!

Take the IG matchup for examle. It was always IG favored and 2 years of gameplay proved that. Simply because they could set the temp very early on with the sentinel and start bleeding the Eldar ineffective un upgraded squads. Eldar needed 30 power to get on equal footing early on and IF the IG make catachans you NEEDED Rangers to start bleeding IG properly. So that was another 30 power. Furthermore, you needed them if the opponent made las upgraded stormtroopers to put out counter pressure. Also 1000 hp guardian squads with 333 HP warlocks existed. Bleeding guardsmen is pointless and the sentinel could just repair. It is expected for the IG NOT TO lose the sentinel until late tier 2. Everything else is a miss play.

What do we have now? You are forced to take a second shuriken as your 4th squad. On some maps banshees work and on some they dont. Catachans wreck face now that there is no threat of ranger counter bleed. This all sets the tier1 tempo clearly in IG favor and you all know what happens when players of similar skills have a matchup whos tempo benefits one and not the other. And DoW 2 is about tempo and flow, not about massing and direct combat.

Another matchup that also needs Rangers and very cost effective guardian leaders was the Eldar vs SM. While SM in vanilla was kind of weak at the mid tear of play, in high level tiers the bleeds were none existant and eldar was the one bleeding. The core unit here was the banshee and on some maps the ranger because scouts are better then guardians as a caper. Guardians are stronger but scouts are cheaper and faster and they add to the SM blobb efficiently.

Banshees were stronger in combat vs tacticals and ASMs pre ASM leader KB attack. The goal of the matchup was to strech the SM while bleeding scouts and wait for an opportunity to take out a few models from ASMs and Tacs. This again favors SM now. Their commanders are stronger and Eldar infantry poorly scales into tier2.

I could go over the matchups more but I just want to state my conclusions and suggestions:

Rangers:
- they need to at least be able to one shot: sluggas, shootas, Catachans, Stromtroopers, Guardians, GK starting light squad etc...
- they need to scale into the mid late game
My suggestion would be to either return the old rangers and limit the squad to 1, or to add an upgrade in tier2 that gives the other 2 members rifles, all the while buffing the initial damage to one shot models from the above squads. This would still prevent scout one shots or spam to one shot heavy infantry models.

Banshees:
- they are strong when chasing or in ideal conditions but having said that, they poorly and cost ineffectively scale into tier2. The leader is too expensive for how effective or durable it is.
Personally I would make it so that Eldar exarchs die the last or have significantly more HP. The squads are not cost effective at prolonged fights by design but are effective in ideal conditions

WG and WL:
- they dont scale into tier3 at all. They have an upgrade but its not impactful albeit sometimes useful.
As far as WL goes, miror DaoT, give it a HP boost OR a Ranged damage reduction buff with the Wraithbone upgrade. Same with WG. They can tank better late game when crit mass happens, but the melee counter remains.

greetings, Choko
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Forestradio » Fri 26 Feb, 2016 2:12 pm

ChokoBambus wrote:they need to at least be able to one shot: sluggas, shootas, Catachans, Stromtroopers, Guardians, GK starting light squad etc...
-This would still prevent scout one shots

If by stormtroopers you mean imperial guard stormtroopers, then rangers will be doing 180 damage per shot. That will oneshot scouts for sure, and actually make them stronger than they used to be (160 damage per shot is the pre-rework rangers).
ChokoBambus wrote:I would make it so that Eldar exarchs die the last or have significantly more HP

It has been discussed in detail that a general squad leader rework would be beneficial, where after the first purchase all squad leaders can be bought back for some percentage of their initial cost (50-75%).
ChokoBambus wrote:WG and WL:
- they dont scale into tier3 at all. They have an upgrade but its not impactful albeit sometimes useful.
As far as WL goes, miror DaoT, give it a HP boost OR a Ranged damage reduction buff with the Wraithbone upgrade. Same with WG. They can tank better late game when crit mass happens, but the melee counter remains.

Just as an fyi, there are a number of things different about both wraithlords and wraithguards. For example:
Wraithlords have melee resistance (as do all melee dedicated walkers excluding bloodcrusher and tyrant guard). They do not lose this melee resistance when upgraded with a ranged weapon. Their shoulder mounted brightlance can also fire on the move.
Wraithguards were changed extensively but the biggest change is that they can now fire on the move.

I can't comment on anything else in the thread because I don't know enough about retail, sorry :/

I would suggest making an eldar thread in the balance section, or maybe just PMing Caeltos.
Last edited by Forestradio on Fri 26 Feb, 2016 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cyris
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Cyris » Fri 26 Feb, 2016 3:43 pm

@Choko
Great breakdown in your second post! I urge you to take forests advice and make a full on Eldar balance discussion in that forum, to hit some of those points. Cael even did a big post about Eldar design a little bit ago, there's a lot of good stuff in there:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2354

A big emphasis should be considering ELITE on it's own balance, not as a comparison to retail. Yes, some Eldar things have been nerfed / changed relative to there, but so have things from other factions toys. IG matchup in particular, I find to be Eldar favored! 3x DA builds (especially if comboed with the ranged damage buffs of WSE or FS) absolutely wreck sentinels, and Rangers suppression shots are surprisingly effective. Shuries are not as necesary in T1 as it sounds like they were in retail, and T2 feels very Eldar favored with WG and Falchon coming online, and FD as AV support.

I'd love for there to be another Eldar main in ELITE. I hope you stick around! Lemme know if you wanna spar some time.
Last edited by Cyris on Fri 26 Feb, 2016 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dark Riku
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Dark Riku » Fri 26 Feb, 2016 3:45 pm

ChokoBambus wrote:Another matchup that also needs Rangers and very cost effective guardian leaders was the Eldar vs SM. While SM in vanilla was kind of weak at the mid tear of play, in high level tiers the bleeds were none existant and eldar was the one bleeding. The core unit here was the banshee and on some maps the ranger because scouts are better then guardians as a caper. Guardians are stronger but scouts are cheaper and faster and they add to the SM blobb efficiently.
Stating this like a fact ... Eldar VS SM was very much favoured for Eldar at high level of play. If the past proves anything it's that SM stood almost no chance against Eldar, not the other way around. Just look at the tournament scene back then ...
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Gorbles » Fri 26 Feb, 2016 3:53 pm

@Tinibombini - taken to PM :)
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Wise Windu » Fri 26 Feb, 2016 4:00 pm

Cleared out some of the latter posts. Please keep on topic, this thread actually seems to have some potential for reasonable and interesting discussion; let's not ruin that, huh?
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Swift
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Swift » Fri 26 Feb, 2016 4:12 pm

Blimey, I laughed when I heard about the Elite circlejerk a few weeks ago but there's a lot more slicing and spite in this circle than there is jerking.

@Gorb: Tini is a real person and an original account, I can verify that much.

@The rest: The sad truth is whilst I love Elite mod the old guard do have a habit of banging on about how good it is.

Let's burst your collective bubbles for just a moment. Neither vanilla or Elite are perfect or complete and this is ultimately a conflict of opinion that can't be solved in one thread, it's a debate that has been going since the mod launched. We are, controversially, more inclined to like what we saw first. I hated DoW II when it came out because it wasn't DoW I, Choko prefers vanilla and doesn't like the changes in Elite. If he'd played Elite first and not vanilla, maybe it would be different? Who knows? Who cares?

My two biggest issues with either side is that:

1) Choko's declarative "Vanilla is better" is like throwing shit in everyone's face and then rubbing it in. But you asked him to explain his point and whilst it took him longer than some of us would have liked, lo and behold he did. He may not have encyclopedic knowledge of the mod but he's trying hard to make sense.

2) This community has certain firebrands who believe the death penalty is adequate for negative criticism. The attitude turns more people away than proves points, so get this in your noggins, right? Choko's out the loop but he was once a pretty formidable player back in the day, is the piranha treatment really going to sort anything?

I made the mistake of commenting earlier with "So play vanilla" and I kneejerked at that point, but let's inject a bit of happiness back into this community. Everything thrives on criticism, so if you're in the old guard of this game then keep your testosterone out of this.
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