Vanilla is better

Generic non-balance topics.
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Element
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Element » Mon 14 Mar, 2016 9:28 am

After a long while I have started playing dow2 again because I saw the release of a new Elite mod balance patch. After the initial WoW i have come to the realization that despite offering many new a option unit and upgrade wise, dow2elite actually has far less playing styles, namely only one.

Every single eccentric strategy or map movement has been nerfed or pretty much removed from the game. First and foremost is snipers and mobility skills. Secondly, due to a nature of forced engagement, the overall threat of gen bashing imbalance is even more present.

From my perspective as an Eldar WSE player dow2elite is bad. My whole gamestyle is removed from the game and the vanilla based unit to unit interactions and expected results are no longer there.

Guardians are far worse then in vanilla. They also scale far worse into tier2 due to lower hp and weaker damage reduction boon.
Banshees are better, but everything around them is better so it does not matter.
Rangers are absolute trash.
Shurikens are worse off due to additions or improved viability of other races flanking and jump options.

And this is just tier1. Come tier2 other races explode with options and dirt cheap upgrades. On the flip side You have to pay an arm and a leg for something that is not really THAT impactful. Lets not forget the over priced and under performing WS who cant really punish bad retreats anymore.

So, to cut this short, I prefer the vanilla dow2 gameplay to that of elite. Elite selectively removed eccentric stuff that made for interesting tempo and movement counters while forcing direct combat, all the while buffing cost efficiency of direct combat units. I dislike this, dow2 is not about combat it is about map control, at least 1v1. And Eldar are terrible.


Unfortunately despite as much as it pains me to say this given you were one of my favorite players to watch, analyze, and build relationships from...Many of these statements are very much false, and quite lackluster in presentitive evidence-relational event playability- not to mention outlook & perspective given what seems to be an obvious game intermission lapse.

This game has beyonst changed since vanilla in offerings for you to play.
-The way in which you go about that of playing 1v1 has changed
-There are new Players
-There are new Maps
-The Commanders have slightly changed (1 has been added)
-The Factions have slightly changed (1 has been introduced)

The 2 Most Critical Elements
_________________________
*Build order and how we understand build order is always in the works of being changed*
*and finally player understanding is always in the works of being changed*

When I look at these factors, and note the length of the list of matters which I at least tailor to that of, which many would consider to be *Broad* relational changes across the board, I can't help but say that given your leave of absence, and your only just weekly return, that you are making some rather pre-understood judgmental remarks. Some are fine, others quite questionable, while others have already been naturally filtered out which only further amplifies your "Spacial, Time, and Projective Lapse" which is currently taking place of 5 years regarding vanilla, and that of how people play, with that of what thought process given what presentive game aspects, unit opportunities, and abilites, not to mention the directional sense of the game given that of where it stood in corresopndence to facilitative balance changes.

1.)
Every single eccentric strategy or map movement has been nerfed or pretty much removed from the game. First and foremost is snipers and mobility skills. Secondly, due to a nature of forced engagement, the overall threat of gen bashing imbalance is even more present.

-Eccentric play will always be apart of any matter in life regarding the infusion of oneself into to that of what it one's part-takes in that of a craft of doing, however the key to a relationship is not in that of what it is presented as in that of a correspondence to its model but the elements which make up that said model, whatever that may be. Finally, there exist no game where you will not have some balanced relationship amongst capping, engaging, and essentially capping and skirmishing.

2.)
Guardians are far worse then in vanilla. They also scale far worse into tier2 due to lower hp and weaker damage reduction boon.
Banshees are better, but everything around them is better so it does not matter.
Rangers are absolute trash.
Shurikens are worse off due to additions or improved viability of other races flanking and jump options.

-Dire Avengers as Dark Riku has pointed out are actually better. You have the ability to from the beginning of the game, be capable of choosing amongst the utility, warlock, and or for that of say both upgrades where as before you never had such abilities to do so. this means you can create a more so that of accurate build which would situate the relationship vs another faction. While utility is great, sometimes you have plenty of map cover presentation to which perhaps D.P.S would be more so that of important. sometimes buying a ranger squad really wouldn't normally fit into your build order later on in the game so instead of buying one, you can buy a warlock and immediately have in game detection. If I really need to stay in a skirmish yet still apply some well- effectiev damage layout perhaps I should take both upgrades to enable them to be completely upgraded earlier so as to present them as my main support-ranged-opportunistic-skirmish force going into T2 with a relatively well-standing foundation. As for Rangers and Shuriken Catapults. The true skill of a player at least to me comes to showcase itself that of how you would choose to go about that of utilizing these units to augment the rest of the units in your force build order to which they are very far from bad.

3.)
and this is just tier1. Come tier2 other races explode with options and dirt cheap upgrades. On the flip side You have to pay an arm and a leg for something that is not really THAT impactful. Lets not forget the over priced and under performing WS who cant really punish bad retreats anymore.
So, to cut this short, I prefer the vanilla dow2 gameplay to that of elite. Elite selectively removed eccentric stuff that made for interesting tempo and movement counters while forcing direct combat, all the while buffing cost efficiency of direct combat units. I dislike this, dow2 is not about combat it is about map control, at least 1v1. And Eldar are terrible.

-Eldar have always been balanced in scale regarding their Synergetic capabilites via the well-standing-capabilites of the player using them. Eldar have so many options in T2 going into T3 that its really quite laughable in comparison (only further enhanced with the bright-lance as an upgrade to the shuriken catapult in T2 in addition to the dark reapers, and fire dragons. ) especially given that of how they can create opportunity more so that effectively than any other faction via unit- combination- playability links which otherwise decimate opposing players unit force builds. The W.S.E has been scaled back indeed and indeed is no longer as "One man army" capable as before meaning that the player will actually need to consider utilizing the warp-spider exarch around their units more so that of often than not ot deal with opposing forces (which I'd argue is a good relationship to build given Eldar work best when they are relatively spread, centralized, yet still uniform) Finally, I play Eldar/SM/& Gk, and many individuals often type into the in-game chat that I play in that of a very similiar way, or more rather "incorporate" that of such a play in my own games. However, I never go so as far as to always be capping, I play to the map, and look to have the resources augment my map capabilities, but never do I look only to resources, because you can cap the map as much as you want but if they can re-cap those resources and the V.P.'s aren't ticking away with that of a reasonable rate, you'll never reach the conclusion you're looking for.

Balance Suggestion Changes

For example:
Banshee upgrade gives additional 20% hit points and 10% damage
Ranger upgrade Increases its fire rate by 100%
WS upgrade makes WS invulnerable for 3 seconds after teleporting
Dire Avenger upgrade gives them 100% faster repair speed and the shields are much stronger
Fire Dragon gives back the 30% ranged damage reduction due to a low range nature of the squad
Reaper squad range increased by 20%
WL upgrade gives it 200 extra hitpoints alongside the heal
WG upgrade gives them 20% ranged damage mitigation as well.

Again, this would all be tier3 upgrades which you would have to pay for to keep the squad relevant as the units are very defined role wise.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Just to asses some of the suggestions from the list. above..
A.)Giving Banshees an extra 20% health and 10% damage would be rather concerning given their already great supportive opportunistic- flanker- sweep- bounce- finishing capabilities and improving their chase venture capabilities given the increase in health which would otherwise render a retreat earlier may prove vital end-game. Having such staying prowess in addition to the field presence not to mention the set-up Warshout capabilities would make make them quite far extensively capable of being effective in relations to all the other T1 units given their capabilities to wipe in T3 (due to the level gains). While I personally would be happy to see some iteration of a buff in T3, I believe this would place too much over emphasis on the banshees being effectively capable of "staying within high tier engagements with dedicated T3 units" that other T1 units would not be able to have. They may be slightly underextensively melee capable as a (force v force) initiatior however, I would say...anyone whom would ever use their Banshees in such a manner may want to consider to start "searching for new ways in which to incorporate their banshees into the game" because that way of playing is relatively fading out of existence though still exercised in "high level play" (quote on quote)

B.) Increasing the Rangers Squad fire rate in correspondence to that of a scaling level of effectiveness would be fine to me, but by that of a flat out rate of 100%... they would become verging on broken in cost -utility- confrontation-effectiveness regarding their capabilities to pulse-burst-kill volley units trying to acquire req, power, and vp's. during the critical end-game moments. where a 2-3s volley as opposed to a 6-7s volley is much so crucial to be able to re-set the cap given that the model which would otherwise be capping dies from your "under protection from extensive range" Rangers, which would be very difficult to be "suggested to back off." Rate of Fire> Damage if the shot being applied with that of a reasonable rate of fire is still capable of threatening model loss, incurring vast health unit loss, and/or/for say that of setting- up a burst force-set up wipe on that of the said "unsespecting unit".

C.) Dire Avenger upgrade gives them 100% faster repair speed and the shields are much stronger
-Dire Avengers already have considerably decent repair abilities, to which I believe Caeltos even presented a thread to that of looking to alleviate the punishment of A.V. damage applied to Eldar vehicles in the late game by I believe enhancing the mobility? "Don't quote me on this :P" However, I believe it should always be administered by that of the player that he/and or she properly manages their tanks position/maneuvering/ and presentation to shot/facing/damage prospects so as not to have to undergo many mechanical repairs.

While I may have been under the influence of the WoW and WTF moments in the game when i opened the topic and came off as dismissive, the fact is that i have the utmost respect for what you guys have done here.

The issue at hand is that, when the mod was made, some of the reasons as to why certain extreme things existed were forgotten and evertyhing was streamlined.

By design, Eldar in vanilla were very cost ineffective but had leaders that could scale the squads pretty decently come tier2 to make them semi cost effective in certain situations. The point of tier1 play was to not bleed heavily and the goal of the opponent was to bleed guardians and banshees. To have a proper response to that, strong shurikens and 160 damage rangers existed. However, Eldar gen bashing potential was abysmal so any bleeds that could be made would have been rather a small step towards the opponents power farm. On the flip side, the threat of gen bashing was very existing for eldar all the time because many a squad the opponents had was either very fast and cheap or had the flamer upgrade, or both!

Take the IG matchup for examle. It was always IG favored and 2 years of gameplay proved that. Simply because they could set the temp very early on with the sentinel and start bleeding the Eldar ineffective un upgraded squads. Eldar needed 30 power to get on equal footing early on and IF the IG make catachans you NEEDED Rangers to start bleeding IG properly. So that was another 30 power. Furthermore, you needed them if the opponent made las upgraded stormtroopers to put out counter pressure. Also 1000 hp guardian squads with 333 HP warlocks existed. Bleeding guardsmen is pointless and the sentinel could just repair. It is expected for the IG NOT TO lose the sentinel until late tier 2. Everything else is a miss play.

What do we have now? You are forced to take a second shuriken as your 4th squad. On some maps banshees work and on some they dont. Catachans wreck face now that there is no threat of ranger counter bleed. This all sets the tier1 tempo clearly in IG favor and you all know what happens when players of similar skills have a matchup whos tempo benefits one and not the other. And DoW 2 is about tempo and flow, not about massing and direct combat.

Another matchup that also needs Rangers and very cost effective guardian leaders was the Eldar vs SM. While SM in vanilla was kind of weak at the mid tear of play, in high level tiers the bleeds were none existant and eldar was the one bleeding. The core unit here was the banshee and on some maps the ranger because scouts are better then guardians as a caper. Guardians are stronger but scouts are cheaper and faster and they add to the SM blobb efficiently.

Banshees were stronger in combat vs tacticals and ASMs pre ASM leader KB attack. The goal of the matchup was to strech the SM while bleeding scouts and wait for an opportunity to take out a few models from ASMs and Tacs. This again favors SM now. Their commanders are stronger and Eldar infantry poorly scales into tier2.

I could go over the matchups more but I just want to state my conclusions and suggestions:

Rangers:
- they need to at least be able to one shot: sluggas, shootas, Catachans, Stromtroopers, Guardians, GK starting light squad etc...
- they need to scale into the mid late game
My suggestion would be to either return the old rangers and limit the squad to 1, or to add an upgrade in tier2 that gives the other 2 members rifles, all the while buffing the initial damage to one shot models from the above squads. This would still prevent scout one shots or spam to one shot heavy infantry models.

Banshees:
- they are strong when chasing or in ideal conditions but having said that, they poorly and cost ineffectively scale into tier2. The leader is too expensive for how effective or durable it is.
Personally I would make it so that Eldar exarchs die the last or have significantly more HP. The squads are not cost effective at prolonged fights by design but are effective in ideal conditions

WG and WL:
- they dont scale into tier3 at all. They have an upgrade but its not impactful albeit sometimes useful.
As far as WL goes, miror DaoT, give it a HP boost OR a Ranged damage reduction buff with the Wraithbone upgrade. Same with WG. They can tank better late game when crit mass happens, but the melee counter remains.

Rangers:
- they need to at least be able to one shot: sluggas, shootas, Catachans, Stromtroopers, Guardians, GK starting light squad etc...
- they need to scale into the mid late game
My suggestion would be to either return the old rangers and limit the squad to 1, or to add an upgrade in tier2 that gives the other 2 members rifles, all the while buffing the initial damage to one shot models from the above squads. This would still prevent scout one shots or spam to one shot heavy infantry models.


-As I'm pretty sure many have brought to your attention earlier in the thread, this has already been concluded to be very bad for the purposes of enjoyment when playing the match
Banshees:
- they are strong when chasing or in ideal conditions but having said that, they poorly and cost ineffectively scale into tier2. The leader is too expensive for how effective or durable it is.
Personally I would make it so that Eldar exarchs die the last or have significantly more HP. The squads are not cost effective at prolonged fights by design but are effective in ideal conditions


-Banshees are not supposed to be in prolonged fights, this completely confilicts with their conceptions of, contact melee initiation, accountive unit model health standing, and their sweeping unit wipe capabilities. They are a unit verging on being a glass cannon. Glass cannons usually surge>hit hard> and often wipe units, but otherwise can't stay in the fray for long. in addition, this verging on glass cannon melee unit doesn't have a fine means of entering into melee "head on head". They don't have the health, the armor, nor the models to spear upon losing any trying to run them into combat, because they aren't supposed to. They are shot to pieces and even upon a flank you still have to be conscious so as not to leave them in the scuffle for too long given any units which would otherwise be able to initiate C.C.'s., facilitate one unit hit model losses, and otherwise be faster than them under normal circumstances, stand a great chance of wiping them upon retreat...however, with the proper facilitative support in this case via Ranged D.P.S from the W.S.E. and most notably some mannerism of normal Warpspiders, you are looking to have their DPS effectively attune to act as your extra needed compensation of health for that engagement and then some given their abilities to also well effectively chase given their teleportation capabilities, where as the Warlock and Farseer would help-out via health, buffs, and damge.

An Aside Note:

-Warpspiders aren't supposed to be often performing as the mainstay of your facilitative ranged damage. One whom is trying to use warpspiders primarily for the purposes of Ranged-Filament D.P.S. isn't using their

WG and WL:
- they dont scale into tier3 at all. They have an upgrade but its not impactful albeit sometimes useful.
As far as WL goes, miror DaoT, give it a HP boost OR a Ranged damage reduction buff with the Wraithbone upgrade. Same with WG. They can tank better late game when crit mass happens, but the melee counter remains.

-WG and Wl scale fine into T3 with the WarpspiderExarch, you have a group teleport ability that effectively means that you can practically gen bash, effectively negate the walking distance of the Wraithguard, or more rather gain the flank of your choosing that you would like to come in on at any moment to facilitate a engagement, not to mention the anti-gravity grenade to suspend units in the air to wipe them, I mean really you can set-up just about anything given that is what the Warpspider Exarch does in the late game, in addition to map wide harrasment, and having wide- ranging map contest capabilties. I'd even think the Warpspider Exarch would be one of the best vehicle chasers in the game. You can blink in front a tank or in back of it and impede that vehicle's pathing allowing your Wraithlord to effectiely snipe it from with the brightlance while supporting the chase with the powerblades. Finally, I don;t believe you are appreciating the gravity of the situation as to be able to effectievly heal up a walker out on the field without having to have units come by and repair that vehicle not to mention having the ability to keep the wraithguard out on the field longer without having need to retreat them back to base and walk them back out again, and instead retain one's standing out on the field. These are huge *unique* plays in themselves where through proper unit engagmenet management you can practically keep them both out on the field throughout most of the game given you just don't over extend them.

-In addition, I would definitely disagree with Eldar peeking in T2 given that many of the polishing force build order units come in T3; notably the Fire Prism Cannon, the Seer Council, and notably the D-Cannon (though having Eldritch Storm on stand-by & having been able to find an opportunistic game where it would make sense to field the the Avatar, let alone buy it, let alone be able to bring it out onto the field are rather quite rare)
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Rataxas
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Rataxas » Mon 14 Mar, 2016 3:43 pm

Act. Im thinking right now that Vanila and Elite is equal. Both are crap at the moment. But , but , first few months of Elite was the best days for it i think. Balance was made rly well. I dont know who is doing that crappy things like X termie , or half of the GK shit , also some other changes like 5 power on the Falcon makes any diffrance...
I can agree with Chokoo in some points but not all of them. First thing first chaos need some changes still his heros and some units are way too good. Chaos got act. bigger , better , and cheaper army from SM.
Eldar thats right i agree about T3 eldar is pretty week , you got to spam d canons or Ava which one is crap without support. But if we wan to buff T3 of eldar units we need to change somehow heros like Warlock Providance or Farseer Time Field.
I would remove that GK shit or i dont know make it equal to SM , not slike Strike Squads costs same as TSM and its better from them in range and close combat.

I think the balance problem in this game is that , that ppl which one is doing this , are not rly play much 1v1 with all races. I have spoken with some ppl that suggest balance changes , and their ideas are based on 2v2 or 3v3 games. Lets make this sure , there is not such a thing like 2v2 or 3v3 balance.

My idea is , instead of doing some new crappy units that are not needed like FireDragons focuse more on alrdy existed things. And btw. FD wer enot needed in eldar army and they are still in my way bit OP.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Metal C0Mmander » Mon 14 Mar, 2016 4:19 pm

Rataxas wrote: I think the balance problem in this game is that , that ppl which one is doing this , are not rly play much 1v1 with all races. I have spoken with some ppl that suggest balance changes , and their ideas are based on 2v2 or 3v3 games. Lets make this sure , there is not such a thing like 2v2 or 3v3 balance.

NO! The other points of that post I can't talk about because I'm not realy in a position to talk about balance right now but that point FUCK NO! Yeah 1v1 has got to be balanced but that doesn't mean you should sacrifice team games to do so. And the developers of this mod do play 1v1 themselves don't worry.
Consider that whenever I speak of balance I'm speking of team games. I suck at 1v1 and I'm fine with that.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 14 Mar, 2016 4:34 pm

@Rataxas
5 power cost changes can have big impacts. Just look at the underpriced INQ wargears.
They are full aware of the havoc autocannons and PM's overperforming and that is being dealt with.
Have you played the recent Chaos yet? The heretic nerf really shifted things around.
People saying Eldar T3 is weak makes me chuckle. Just look at the units available in T3, like the unkillable T3 falcon.
Buff timefield? People are already, rightfully so, complaining about this ability.
What's wrong with providence? Making him invulnerable and able to spam abilities.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby HARRYY » Mon 14 Mar, 2016 5:51 pm

Timefield is ok when u Checkout overall T3 performe ce of the other races.

Falcon price not ok, .... Shield cost for it either
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Rataxas » Tue 15 Mar, 2016 9:58 am

Dark Riku wrote:@Rataxas
5 power cost changes can have big impacts. Just look at the underpriced INQ wargears.
They are full aware of the havoc autocannons and PM's overperforming and that is being dealt with.
Have you played the recent Chaos yet? The heretic nerf really shifted things around.
People saying Eldar T3 is weak makes me chuckle. Just look at the units available in T3, like the unkillable T3 falcon.
Buff timefield? People are already, rightfully so, complaining about this ability.
What's wrong with providence? Making him invulnerable and able to spam abilities.


I have never said anything about buffing timefield or providance
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Rataxas » Tue 15 Mar, 2016 10:00 am

Metal C0Mmander wrote:
Rataxas wrote: I think the balance problem in this game is that , that ppl which one is doing this , are not rly play much 1v1 with all races. I have spoken with some ppl that suggest balance changes , and their ideas are based on 2v2 or 3v3 games. Lets make this sure , there is not such a thing like 2v2 or 3v3 balance.

NO! The other points of that post I can't talk about because I'm not realy in a position to talk about balance right now but that point FUCK NO! Yeah 1v1 has got to be balanced but that doesn't mean you should sacrifice team games to do so. And the developers of this mod do play 1v1 themselves don't worry.



TEAM GAMES as do we call them are called TEAM , that means you ask for help of ur team mate ( ofc not 99% of ur time. )
Metal C0Mmander
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Metal C0Mmander » Tue 15 Mar, 2016 10:28 am

Rataxas wrote:TEAM GAMES as do we call them are called TEAM , that means you ask for help of ur team mate ( ofc not 99% of ur time. )

Yeah 50% of the time he's losing his side of the map to come and help you. But no you're right. I shouldn't be able to push my lane because I got a bad matchup. I shouldn't be able to stop the bashing of a gen farm because I can't get an army that can force my attacker to back off making then having to buy it back or have my whole team fight on one gen farm. I shouldn't be able to push off a team that's sitting on a reinforcement point in the middle of the map. And I shouldn't be able to push back an opponent that's to strong for my ally only quickly enough for the opponent in my lane to come and mop us up.

Things might not be that bad right now but if we stop giving a fuck about team balance they will be.
Consider that whenever I speak of balance I'm speking of team games. I suck at 1v1 and I'm fine with that.
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Dark Riku
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 15 Mar, 2016 1:32 pm

Your writing very much suggests otherwise...
Rataxas wrote:But if we wan to buff T3 of eldar units we need to change somehow heros like Warlock Providance or Farseer Time Field.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Gorbles » Tue 15 Mar, 2016 1:44 pm

Changing those abilities so that Eldar T3 can be buffed, is not the same as asking for those abilities to be buffed.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 15 Mar, 2016 1:49 pm

Gorb wrote:Changing those abilities so that Eldar T3 can be buffed, is not the same as asking for those abilities to be buffed.
Considering the context and his crappy English, that's what made the most sense to me.
"Changing" abilities does not necessarily mean buffing or nerfing and he was talking about T3 buffs, so yeah.
Last edited by Dark Riku on Tue 15 Mar, 2016 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Atlas

Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Atlas » Tue 15 Mar, 2016 2:41 pm

Let's keep the topic on crying about Elite and how Vanilla is better, ty.

As for all the off-topic posts:
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Odysseus » Tue 15 Mar, 2016 3:15 pm

Well, I had a feeling that this thread would warrant some replies, but not that it would explode like this.

So, what sparks me the most is that there are people who have barely played the mod in years or still think that the mod is still the same as in its infancy. I could write a lengthy post about what, how, when, where etc., but I think this can be dealt with quite simply.

If people disagree with the design and balance-decisions Caeltos and his team have undertaken, you are free to go play Vanilla and move along. This is, and will remain Caeltos' mod and rightfully so. He, and his team, have the final say. Seems obvious, but some people here strut around like they own the bloody place.

All of us will have certain moments within gaming that we disagree with something or have an unpleasant experience. I personally also have things I do not agree with in design and balance with Elite, but before elaborating on my disapproval about the mod, I either bide my time and watch casts or simply play more with the things I do enjoy. Eventually, the perks of this mod will grow on you, and if they don't, then get out of the way, you are blocking traffic. If it is within your power, feel free to provide constructive criticism on how to improve the mod. If you are lucky enough, it will be considered and even implemented.

I have been part (still am with some) of several mods (Mostly COH) in the past years as a designer and a tester, and nothing is more disheartening to see people come on here and say the mod ''sucks''. It's downright disrespectful to say that all those years of hard work on changing up the gameplay experience are terrible and that those changes ''suck''. I do not see how such a choice of words can ever improve anything.

In short, if people come onto the forums to complain, instead of provide constructive criticism, you are kindly asked to either f*ck off, or to feel free to make your own bloody mod, so we can bash it in turn: see how ya like that. Thankfully, all is not lost, there are good people on the forums that provide detailed feedback and contribute to the improvement of the mod, be they casual or ''elites''.

Just my two cents as a long-time, amateur modder.

Oh and Caeltos, keep going mate. You and your team are bloody awesome. Also, kudos to the people that do provide constructive criticism & feedback and the long-time players that have stuck with Elite through all the changes.

Cheers.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Rataxas » Tue 15 Mar, 2016 3:22 pm

Dark Riku wrote:
Gorb wrote:Changing those abilities so that Eldar T3 can be buffed, is not the same as asking for those abilities to be buffed.
Considering the context and his crappy English, that's what made the most sense to me.
"Changing" abilities does not necessarily mean buffing or nerfing and he was talking about T3 buffs, so yeah.



Sorry Riku , I wasnt maybe fully clear what did I meant. Was act. thinking maybe you have more than half brain and gonna get exactly the meaning, but yeah nvm ... so ...

But if we wan to buff T3 of eldar units we need to change somehow heros like Warlock Providance or Farseer Time Field.


If we want to buff the Tier 3 units from Eldar army , we got to somehow change / redesigne Providance Armor and TimeField from FS. Not saying totally nerfed.

Hope now you understood my crappy english :)



Metal C0Mmander wrote:
Rataxas wrote:TEAM GAMES as do we call them are called TEAM , that means you ask for help of ur team mate ( ofc not 99% of ur time. )

Yeah 50% of the time he's losing his side of the map to come and help you. But no you're right. I shouldn't be able to push my lane because I got a bad matchup. I shouldn't be able to stop the bashing of a gen farm because I can't get an army that can force my attacker to back off making then having to buy it back or have my whole team fight on one gen farm. I shouldn't be able to push off a team that's sitting on a reinforcement point in the middle of the map. And I shouldn't be able to push back an opponent that's to strong for my ally only quickly enough for the opponent in my lane to come and mop us up.

Things might not be that bad right now but if we stop giving a fuck about team balance they will be.


It's not like this, it's about the map you know. Lets just compare MU , ORC WB vs SM TM , in my honest opinion I do really think that MU ( matchup ) its on favor TM. But only on maps where you gonna be able to use beacons , turrets , steupteams. So Orc army wont have any chance to flank your positions.

Like desert showdown map on 2v2 , cliff mines 2v2 and few others. But on 1v1 on some open maps , without buildings , its really hard to stand up against WB with sluggas , lootas and maybe some stormboyz. Why ? Simple ... If I will just deploy setupteam somewhere on the map i need to secure it with scouts in case of getting flanked by sluggas or some jump units like stormboyz.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Metal C0Mmander » Tue 15 Mar, 2016 4:46 pm

Rataxas wrote: It's not like this, it's about the map you know. Lets just compare MU , ORC WB vs SM TM , in my honest opinion I do really think that MU ( matchup ) its on favor TM. But only on maps where you gonna be able to use beacons , turrets , steupteams. So Orc army wont have any chance to flank your positions.

Like desert showdown map on 2v2 , cliff mines 2v2 and few others. But on 1v1 on some open maps , without buildings , its really hard to stand up against WB with sluggas , lootas and maybe some stormboyz. Why ? Simple ... If I will just deploy setupteam somewhere on the map i need to secure it with scouts in case of getting flanked by sluggas or some jump units like stormboyz.

So what? Every map om 1v1, 2v2, or 3v3 tend to favor different commanders? Doesn't mean that if you don't keep an eye on this shit it won't go out of hand and fuck over people that only like to play some of these modes. For exemple you shouldn't have the techmarine beacon overperform on 3v3 for the whole team so that's it perform great on 1v1. You should be able to find other ways to make the techmarine or the space marines in general perform decent on all mode.
Consider that whenever I speak of balance I'm speking of team games. I suck at 1v1 and I'm fine with that.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Rataxas » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 9:15 am

Metal C0Mmander wrote:
Rataxas wrote: It's not like this, it's about the map you know. Lets just compare MU , ORC WB vs SM TM , in my honest opinion I do really think that MU ( matchup ) its on favor TM. But only on maps where you gonna be able to use beacons , turrets , steupteams. So Orc army wont have any chance to flank your positions.

Like desert showdown map on 2v2 , cliff mines 2v2 and few others. But on 1v1 on some open maps , without buildings , its really hard to stand up against WB with sluggas , lootas and maybe some stormboyz. Why ? Simple ... If I will just deploy setupteam somewhere on the map i need to secure it with scouts in case of getting flanked by sluggas or some jump units like stormboyz.

So what? Every map om 1v1, 2v2, or 3v3 tend to favor different commanders? Doesn't mean that if you don't keep an eye on this shit it won't go out of hand and fuck over people that only like to play some of these modes. For exemple you shouldn't have the techmarine beacon overperform on 3v3 for the whole team so that's it perform great on 1v1. You should be able to find other ways to make the techmarine or the space marines in general perform decent on all mode.



Sad but true , the map in DoW2 it does matter. Faster ppl will understand that , faster we will get better players.

Just simple example , Desert Showdown 2v2 map , that map , especially spots with Power Node are really great for builds with 2 setup teams or even 3. Snipers build , nade ticks builds , everything that has much more range than simple bolter it's just better on that map. Instead of Close Combat builds , jump units etc.
Why is like this ? cause of the structure of map. The power nodes are really close to the turrets, just get 2 setup teams and you can act. almost cover half of the length of that map. That's why snipers are rly good there but not the best.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Gorbles » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 9:26 am

Odysseus wrote:Well, I had a feeling that this thread would warrant some replies, but not that it would explode like this.

So, what sparks me the most is that there are people who have barely played the mod in years or still think that the mod is still the same as in its infancy. I could write a lengthy post about what, how, when, where etc., but I think this can be dealt with quite simply.

If people disagree with the design and balance-decisions Caeltos and his team have undertaken, you are free to go play Vanilla and move along. This is, and will remain Caeltos' mod and rightfully so. He, and his team, have the final say. Seems obvious, but some people here strut around like they own the bloody place.

All of us will have certain moments within gaming that we disagree with something or have an unpleasant experience. I personally also have things I do not agree with in design and balance with Elite, but before elaborating on my disapproval about the mod, I either bide my time and watch casts or simply play more with the things I do enjoy. Eventually, the perks of this mod will grow on you, and if they don't, then get out of the way, you are blocking traffic. If it is within your power, feel free to provide constructive criticism on how to improve the mod. If you are lucky enough, it will be considered and even implemented.

I have been part (still am with some) of several mods (Mostly COH) in the past years as a designer and a tester, and nothing is more disheartening to see people come on here and say the mod ''sucks''. It's downright disrespectful to say that all those years of hard work on changing up the gameplay experience are terrible and that those changes ''suck''. I do not see how such a choice of words can ever improve anything.

In short, if people come onto the forums to complain, instead of provide constructive criticism, you are kindly asked to either f*ck off, or to feel free to make your own bloody mod, so we can bash it in turn: see how ya like that. Thankfully, all is not lost, there are good people on the forums that provide detailed feedback and contribute to the improvement of the mod, be they casual or ''elites''.

Just my two cents as a long-time, amateur modder.

Oh and Caeltos, keep going mate. You and your team are bloody awesome. Also, kudos to the people that do provide constructive criticism & feedback and the long-time players that have stuck with Elite through all the changes.

Cheers.

To be fair, all I wish is that people applied this kind of attitude to products that aren't ELITE, including both other modifications and the vanilla game.

People are very good at defending the effort mod teams have expended, but for some reason the developers don't get that same kind of defense without calling folks "white knights". Making games mods might be a hobby, and making the game itself might be a job, but that means very little other than one group gets paid and the other doesn't. The passion still has to be there in any case (take it from me).
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby saltychipmunk » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 12:28 pm

well, to be fair that passion may be suppressed by the whips of an evil publishing timeline.

modders have more or less the benefit of not having the pressure to release on the terms of others . obviously there is a realistic limit to reason because even an accomplished modder will some times have to feel atleast some pressure from their fans to release content. But it is not even remotely close to the pressure a game developer feels when the suits come breathing down their necks.

So i would consider a game developer to be more like a modder with 10 times the stress and obligations. It is kind of why despite how badly relic has fucked up the last few patches of dow2 i know that there is most certainly a suit behind the scene with a firm hand on the coin purse whispering dark persuasions into their ears.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Metal C0Mmander » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 1:36 pm

Rataxas wrote:Sad but true , the map in DoW2 it does matter. Faster ppl will understand that , faster we will get better players.

Just simple example , Desert Showdown 2v2 map , that map , especially spots with Power Node are really great for builds with 2 setup teams or even 3. Snipers build , nade ticks builds , everything that has much more range than simple bolter it's just better on that map. Instead of Close Combat builds , jump units etc.
Why is like this ? cause of the structure of map. The power nodes are really close to the turrets, just get 2 setup teams and you can act. almost cover half of the length of that map. That's why snipers are rly good there but not the best.

Ok let me remind you what you said that started this whole mess...
Rataxas wrote: I think the balance problem in this game is that , that ppl which one is doing this , are not rly play much 1v1 with all races. I have spoken with some ppl that suggest balance changes , and their ideas are based on 2v2 or 3v3 games. Lets make this sure , there is not such a thing like 2v2 or 3v3 balance.
Now tell me what the fuck does map balance has to do with whether or not 1v1 should be balanced in favor of team game?
Consider that whenever I speak of balance I'm speking of team games. I suck at 1v1 and I'm fine with that.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Rataxas » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 2:05 pm

Metal C0Mmander wrote:
Rataxas wrote:Sad but true , the map in DoW2 it does matter. Faster ppl will understand that , faster we will get better players.

Just simple example , Desert Showdown 2v2 map , that map , especially spots with Power Node are really great for builds with 2 setup teams or even 3. Snipers build , nade ticks builds , everything that has much more range than simple bolter it's just better on that map. Instead of Close Combat builds , jump units etc.
Why is like this ? cause of the structure of map. The power nodes are really close to the turrets, just get 2 setup teams and you can act. almost cover half of the length of that map. That's why snipers are rly good there but not the best.

Ok let me remind you what you said that started this whole mess...
Rataxas wrote: I think the balance problem in this game is that , that ppl which one is doing this , are not rly play much 1v1 with all races. I have spoken with some ppl that suggest balance changes , and their ideas are based on 2v2 or 3v3 games. Lets make this sure , there is not such a thing like 2v2 or 3v3 balance.
Now tell me what the fuck does map balance has to do with whether or not 1v1 should be balanced in favor of team game?



Yeah and i still say that the balance should be made on 1v1. You can have a choice ... dont play that map or change commander / race... Or ... lets start to make maps that are even for all races.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Metal C0Mmander » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 2:20 pm

Rataxas wrote: Yeah and i still say that the balance should be made on 1v1. You can have a choice ... dont play that map or change commander / race... Or ... lets start to make maps that are even for all races.

So what you're saying is that we shouldn't focus on team game balance because most team game maps aren't balanced for all matchups while all 1v1 maps are. Somehow I'm pretty sure that's wrong but whatever I can't prove it since I barely play 1v1.
Consider that whenever I speak of balance I'm speking of team games. I suck at 1v1 and I'm fine with that.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Ace of Swords » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 7:47 pm

Metal C0Mmander wrote:
Rataxas wrote: Yeah and i still say that the balance should be made on 1v1. You can have a choice ... dont play that map or change commander / race... Or ... lets start to make maps that are even for all races.

So what you're saying is that we shouldn't focus on team game balance because most team game maps aren't balanced for all matchups while all 1v1 maps are. Somehow I'm pretty sure that's wrong but whatever I can't prove it since I barely play 1v1.


He's half right, but you shouldn't balance around team games (unless a unit is doing extremely good there for w/e reason, like old old GK pallies and termies that could be spammed in team games) simply because there's a clusterfuck of variables coming from resources/map control/VP positioning/ unbasheable power and of course, team mates doubling and "broken" combos and more.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Metal C0Mmander » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 8:30 pm

Well alright that has the decency of being clear at least. But still feel like 1v1 also has it's own kind of variable unique to it like how good races are a capping the edges of the map or how good they are at holding a central point with as little units as possible. So unless the amount of variables are that hard to keep track of or Caeltos himself says he doesn't want to support a mode anymore I feel it would be unfair to arbitraily stop caring about balance in any mode and even then perhaps the solution would be to make the units play differently from one mode or an other.
Consider that whenever I speak of balance I'm speking of team games. I suck at 1v1 and I'm fine with that.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Rostam » Wed 20 Sep, 2017 5:56 am

The only advantage vanilla has over elite is the amount of players
Other than that elite mod is superior to retail ;player skill,balance,community,tourneys,replays,new elite skins etc
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby newtonia » Thu 21 Sep, 2017 10:14 pm

ChokoBambus wrote:I have noticed that some other BS stuff hasnt been nerfed though... Catachan bomb on retreat, Plaque Champion silly global that makes a melee squad into a nuke, etc


Catachan bomb on retreat? Really?
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Ace of Swords » Thu 21 Sep, 2017 10:18 pm

Don't necro ded threads of ded players
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egewithin
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby egewithin » Thu 21 Sep, 2017 10:26 pm

Player is dead, topic is dead, vanillia is dead, and in a few years elite will be dead. Why are we still here? Who brought up his topic from its tomb?

Fucking Rostam...
Last edited by egewithin on Fri 22 Sep, 2017 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
newtonia
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby newtonia » Thu 21 Sep, 2017 10:27 pm

ChokoBambus wrote:Actually that was not rly true. Banshees would win vs ASMs in tier 1 but lose out in tier2 due to the sarge fist attack. Also, ASMs were jump troops so they were sort of cost inefficient vs melee units in tier1. Banshees on the other hand bled much more due to a lower starting HP pool and higher cost, but on the other hand the exarch was much cheaper in vanilla. They also chased better.

I really do not think SM vs Eldar was as bad as you made it out to be, because on the very top lvl of play the Eldar had a slight edge in tier1 but that went the other way late tier 2 and 3. The only commander that was struggling was the TM.

But, scouts had snipers that one show, Eldar had rangers. The MU was far more complex because of it. IMHO. Not that I dislike the Elite matchup, I just think that having sniper wars brought about a whole new level of play and strategy into the game. 1 ranger was ok to pressure scouts, 2 rangers was pushing it because the counter was fast tier 2 and a razorback considering that the Eldar invested 90 power into the rangers. They also did not scale into tier 2. FC countered by wargear, APO outhealed the damage and TM, well.... map dependant.

I fundamentally dislike the current iteration of snipers, especially Rangers. I would much rather restore them to the old values but limit the squad to 1.


I think the reason why ranger damage isn't comparable to scout sniper was due to inclusion of courage damage and a on demand knockback that scouts don't have (being able to knockback a select unit is pretty strong for eldar). Although I do agree that rangers do fall pretty hard in t2, i don't think they're as useless as you proport them to be in t1. IMHO rangers should have an upgrade for t2 that increases its damage.

Isn't ASM more expensive? Having to lose 2 banshee models for a single asm model is already a big win for eldar
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby newtonia » Thu 21 Sep, 2017 10:44 pm

Ignore me, just got wind of the date of the post.
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Re: Vanilla is better

Postby Rostam » Wed 27 Sep, 2017 6:35 am

newtonia wrote:
ChokoBambus wrote:I have noticed that some other BS stuff hasnt been nerfed though... Catachan bomb on retreat, Plaque Champion silly global that makes a melee squad into a nuke, etc


Catachan bomb on retreat? Really?

Ye catachans IED it did lots of damage on retreat
also catachans shutguns were crazy in elite made them insane with commissar execute
elite has balanced it out thankfully
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