New Wargear Idea : COMBI - MELTA

[egewithin]

Now, the title shows me as a fool like '' Heeyyy, I just realised that we can use glue to use 2 weapons in the same hand! '' but please, Codex Astartes is not something that hard to find. Don't think me ignorant.

Yeah, normal ranged Termies are cool. But their wargear is not extreamly colourful. Heavy flamer is mad, it can burn an entire nid army and the assault cannon is even madder which can explode CSM models with bullets. Missile launcher is an exelent counter for T3 vehicles.

But here is the thing. I would like to have something to counter Nobz, SM, GK and CSM Termies, Avatar, GUO and etc. Piercing damage is very, very high on Termies but, they are useless against SHI type units and leveled up Nobz. Piercing damage is not effecting Termies and can't finish the endless health of leveled up Nobz.

So; I would like to have a weapon which helps me about this solution. And combi - melta idea sounded cool to me. You may say go double plasma Tacs but I tried it and didn't worked well. Seriously, I'm struggling too much when I play Apo vs GK.

I'm not going to give any ideas about the damage, price or something like that. The modder and engineers are much better than me about balancing.

[Torpid]

You know what. I actually think this is a good idea.

Why do other races all get their T3 anti-SHI now? I mean, eldar get dark reapers which are significantly better vs SHI than plasma tacs as well as seer council, orks get flash gitz, nids get their DOM, chaos has lightning claw termies on top of their BLs and TCSM from T2, IG have plasma kasrkin. SM didn't get anything though!

I do feel like you'de have to give them all meltas for this to work though. Otherwise the spike damage from the one melta would be stupid high - because if it wasn't this thing won't have the dps to be effective vs nobs/termies. Given the fact that them all having meltas would reduce their range quite significantly and that terminators are quite a slow unit I dont think it would be terribly OP and it wouldn't cross over with anything else that SM get compositionally.

Preds would still counter terminators/nobs, but they would do much less dps to them than melta termies who in turn though can be tied up if not supported with suppression/knockback vs nobs or a melee dread vs terminators. Also the pred is far more versatile and helps better vs the counter-play to these terminators - ranged blobs of plasma damage and/or tanks.

Obviously this is a very distinct role from the assault cannon terminators, the flamer terminators or the missle termies due to the different damage typing and the range differences. This also gives SM a nice new option vs the tyranid t3 spam of fexes and SLs! You know, I actually really like this.

I would recommend giving them 3 meltas, each with range of 25 (TM's melta is range 20), damage of 80 damage per hit doing 32dps each costing 100r/60p to purchase.

Bearing in mind the TM's melta does 100 damage per hit, dps ~40. The stormtrooper meltas do 30 damage per hit, dps ~12 (lord general's are the same). Fire dragons do 36 damage per hit and have dps of 16.

[Kentation]

You know what. I actually think this is a good idea.

Why do other races all get their T3 anti-SHI now? I mean, eldar get dark reapers which are significantly better vs SHI than plasma tacs as well as seer council, orks get flash gitz, nids get their DOM, chaos has lightning claw termies on top of their BLs and TCSM from T2, IG have plasma kasrkin. SM didn't get anything though!

Just wanted to point out their are Vanguard Veterans?

Although, I can see why they aren't sufficient enough.

Obviously this is a very distinct role from the assault cannon terminators, the flamer terminators or the missle termies due to the different damage typing and the range differences. This also gives SM a nice new option vs the tyranid t3 spam of fexes and SLs! You know, I actually really like this.

I would have thought SM had enough AV, especially for TM and FC since they have their own AV weapons and unique AV units from their global bar. It’s the Apo that lacks such luxuries. I'm so confused right now.

[Swift]

I think it could work, my question though is why Terminators and not a different unit?

[Torpid]

I think it could work, my question though is why Terminators and not a different unit?

What do you propose?

It's something to make ranged terminators a little less niche, especially in 1v1.

Right now every single one of their upgrades is super niche. It's punish a foe stuck in T2 with mad ranged dps, punish a blobby race (which doesn't even work anymore due to DOM/kasrkin/gitz) so the heavy flamer is mainly viable in 1v1 and then anti-super heavy vehicle/prism mostly.

They're just too niche and I don't really think any other squad would have the durability/cost combination to have hard hitting meltas in t3.

[egewithin]

I think it could work, my question though is why Terminators and not a different unit?

Why not other units but Terminators? Hmmm tough question. Let me explain my idea a bit more so we can argue about more stuff.

- Terminators are not effective vs big walkers. AND NO, I won't risk using power fists vs a Swarmlord. Also, I can't hit my missiles on them.
-Tac. Marines have enough upgrades and no more space eather. Also, they do have their AV as called Baazuuukaaa!
-Devs already have lascannon but it helps me to slow down walkers and I want something more powerful and durable. If I'm in T3, getting a Devs sounds me odd unless a good reason. Eg : Avatar. (I'm not underrestimating the damage of Lascannon ofcource )
-Why would I give melta guns to Assault Marines? Yeah you agree with me eather I know.
-Razorback with melta? Even I protest lascannon on Rhino.
-Libby? Hmmm nope! Not at all.
-Dread has multi-melta, skip!
-Plasma cannon?
-Pred has 2 lascannons.
-Land Rider has a multi-melta on top.
-Assault Termies?
-Vereneble? No, he is cool in melee form and it must stay as melee.

[Atlas]

Pdevs turning into Melta team in t3 sounds silly enough to work

As for Metla Terms, idk. They're really slow and can't retreat so having to get that close is really risky. Sounds interesting though.

[Swift]

I was thinking an ASM rnaged upgrade. SImilar to meltas but it is an active ability to fire them.

[Sturnn]

Maybe sth more combi-grav gun - ,,A Grav-Gun, also known as a Graviton Gun, is a devastating weapon employed by the Adeptus Astartes based on ancient and forgotten technology dating back to the time of the Dark Age of Technology. Manipulating the very nature of gravity itself, a Grav-Gun turns a target's mass against it, crushing it to pulp under its own weight. This is especially shocking when used against heavily-armoured infantry like Terminators, as the hapless warrior is brutally crushed by the bulk of his ceramite plates until only a crimson trickle remains. Space Marine Chapters are among the few warriors of the Imperium to be gifted with the use of Grav-Guns, and it is considered a sacred honour to be able to wield such a potent weapon."

[egewithin]

Maybe sth more combi-grav gun - ,,A Grav-Gun, also known as a Graviton Gun, is a devastating weapon employed by the Adeptus Astartes based on ancient and forgotten technology dating back to the time of the Dark Age of Technology. Manipulating the very nature of gravity itself, a Grav-Gun turns a target's mass against it, crushing it to pulp under its own weight. This is especially shocking when used against heavily-armoured infantry like Terminators, as the hapless warrior is brutally crushed by the bulk of his ceramite plates until only a crimson trickle remains. Space Marine Chapters are among the few warriors of the Imperium to be gifted with the use of Grav-Guns, and it is considered a sacred honour to be able to wield such a potent weapon."

In that case, AE weapon does damage over time and damage increases the more time passes. Also slows down the unit.

However, would't it be a bit overpowered? Also, if that weapon is that ancient, it shouldn't be in the game I think.

[Sturnn]

Imho it would work like wraithguard now - huge, splash dmg.

What do you mean about overpowered? Descriptions doesnt make sth overpowered - at this moment only Caeltos can make sth overpowered. It is just weapon idea - sth new, fresh and totaly different from other game stuff.

Also, if that weapon is that ancient, it shouldn't be in the game I think

What kind of argument it is? Land Rider Redeemer is not ancient? Terminator Armour is not ancient? Power Weapons?

[Torpid]

I was thinking an ASM rnaged upgrade. SImilar to meltas but it is an active ability to fire them.

But then it wouldn't fulfill the role of being able to deal with nobs/paladins or the like? And then they've be a bit good vs tanks. I mean I just don't see why you'de want that over putting them on on termies and making the termies a proper, reliable counter to such things.

[egewithin]

Imho it would work like wraithguard now - huge, splash dmg.

What do you mean about overpowered? Descriptions doesnt make sth overpowered - at this moment only Caeltos can make sth overpowered. It is just weapon idea - sth new, fresh and totaly different from other game stuff.

Also, if that weapon is that ancient, it shouldn't be in the game I think

What kind of argument it is? Land Rider Redeemer is not ancient? Terminator Armour is not ancient? Power Weapons?

I said overpowered because the weapon effect will be much bigger that Doom of Valenties Day.

+ Damage over time
+ Slows down the target
+ Does more damage the more time passes
+ This thing can counter a few squads together and can work as a melee counter eather. Eg : slows down Genestealers. Out of purpuse that we actually want.
+ Doesn't matter how hard Caeltos try to make it unOP, we will still argue about it. Someone will find a way to proof that it is overpowered.

Secondly; grav guns are much harder than finding a Termie armor or Land Riders. Not all Termie armors and Land Riders are produced and stopped after Dark Age of Tec. but the Grav Guns are. I mean, really hard to fing, and most of them are hidden as a relic insade of chapters. I think putting them in the game with just like any other weapon sounds odd. But still, that idea is cool and I liked it actually.

And yet, our main seek is to counter SHI armor with Termies. And if people cares about the short range of combi-meltas, we can swich between normal bolters and meltas just like Sentinal missiles. Ofcource, the boılter should do half damage since it has only one bolter than two.

[egewithin]

I was thinking an ASM rnaged upgrade. SImilar to meltas but it is an active ability to fire them.

Wouldn't it make the ASM just like Raptors? Also, they have their anti-HI and SHI armor upgrrade, you know, you can equip them with power weapons for the purpose. But, can they fight against Paladins head to head? Nope! But they can already counter SHI armor so I don't think they need that upgrade.

[Sturnn]

I said overpowered because the weapon effect will be much bigger that Doom of Valenties Day.

+ Damage over time
+ Slows down the target
+ Does more damage the more time passes
+ This thing can counter a few squads together and can work as a melee counter eather. Eg : slows down Genestealers. Out of purpuse that we actually want.
+ Doesn't matter how hard Caeltos try to make it unOP, we will still argue about it. Someone will find a way to proof that it is overpowered.

Secondly; grav guns are much harder than finding a Termie armor or Land Riders. Not all Termie armors and Land Riders are produced and stopped after Dark Age of Tec. but the Grav Guns are. I mean, really hard to fing, and most of them are hidden as a relic insade of chapters. I think putting them in the game with just like any other weapon sounds odd. But still, that idea is cool and I liked it actually.

And yet, our main seek is to counter SHI armor with Termies. And if people cares about the short range of combi-meltas, we can swich between normal bolters and meltas just like Sentinal missiles. Ofcource, the boılter should do half damage since it has only one bolter than two.

I still don't understand this reasoning. This upgrade will work as Balance Designer will wish to. It wont be made as it is in description on wikipedia and put that way into game.
- Damage over time? Who said it had to be dmg over time?
- Slow down target? Again, who said it has to slow down target?

I think that you created how this weapon works and you just say it gonna be op becasue it has to work as you described. But I tell you that I don't have to work as that. It will work as we will want to. Just remind how shurikien platform worked in DoW 1 and how it looks in DoW 2. Totatly different stuff but wiki description is the same...

[egewithin]

I said overpowered because the weapon effect will be much bigger that Doom of Valenties Day.

+ Damage over time
+ Slows down the target
+ Does more damage the more time passes
+ This thing can counter a few squads together and can work as a melee counter eather. Eg : slows down Genestealers. Out of purpuse that we actually want.
+ Doesn't matter how hard Caeltos try to make it unOP, we will still argue about it. Someone will find a way to proof that it is overpowered.

Secondly; grav guns are much harder than finding a Termie armor or Land Riders. Not all Termie armors and Land Riders are produced and stopped after Dark Age of Tec. but the Grav Guns are. I mean, really hard to fing, and most of them are hidden as a relic insade of chapters. I think putting them in the game with just like any other weapon sounds odd. But still, that idea is cool and I liked it actually.

And yet, our main seek is to counter SHI armor with Termies. And if people cares about the short range of combi-meltas, we can swich between normal bolters and meltas just like Sentinal missiles. Ofcource, the boılter should do half damage since it has only one bolter than two.

I still don't understand this reasoning. This upgrade will work as Balance Designer will wish to. It wont be made as it is in description on wikipedia and put that way into game.
- Damage over time? Who said it had to be dmg over time?
- Slow down target? Again, who said it has to slow down target?

I think that you created how this weapon works and you just say it gonna be op becasue it has to work as you described. But I tell you that I don't have to work as that. It will work as we will want to. Just remind how shurikien platform worked in DoW 1 and how it looks in DoW 2. Totatly different stuff but wiki description is the same...

Yes, you are right about I designed the weapon in my head. But let's agree that I am right about a few things;

The weapon will use the weight of the targets it self. Lets say you are 70 kilograms. You are going to carry a 70 kg more because of this weapon because its using your weight against you. Do you think you can carry 70 kg more on you shoulders and have the same speed with out any extra weight? The gravitiy if far powerful at there. Okay?

I said damage over time because lets say it hits you. Are you going to fell 70 kg's on you just in that moment? It would be odd IMO. You will feel it in a proccess.And, can't you fire more to the target and make the gravity at there more powerfull? So, I can hurt you more with your weight with every shot that I will fire upon you. And in a few shots, there will be a time that passed.

Eg : You damaged with 70 kg's in first fire and felt 210 kg's in the third. And I had a cooldown like 3 seconds. I took 6 seconds to make you carry 210 kg's more. I was 140 it 3rd second and 210 in the 6th second. See? It can make damage over time.

[Sturnn]

Its like saying that multimelta should burn you instantly... I would rather see this gravguns like burst dmg weapon - d cannon.

[Tiptoes]

Eg : You damaged with 70 kg's in first fire and felt 210 kg's in the third. And I had a cooldown like 3 seconds. I took 6 seconds to make you carry 210 kg's more. I was 140 it 3rd second and 210 in the 6th second. See? It can make damage over time.

I feel like this is a logical extension just of saying 'grav weapon', but it doesn't mean the weapon would have to work that way in the game. Especially given that I don't think it even works that way in the tabletop game. It simply does more damage to a target based on their mass (read: armor), so it's virtually useless against lighter targets like guardsmen and orks, but highly effective against heavy and super heavy infantry. I don't think it has any kind of cumulative crushing and slowing effect.

As Sturnn said, I imagine it would just work in the way that balance dictates it should, and is reasonably consistent with the fluff.

[Barrogh]

A little note: we actually were discussing an idea to add a permanent upgrades to sternguards allowing them to use one of the several combi-weapons. There were several ideas being tossed around, like making them into temporary weapon swap with CD once used, some more traditional nuke-spell ability and maybe something else. I wonder if it will make sense to look for that topic...

[egewithin]

Now I am bringing some value ideas about these weapons.

The combi-melta is gonna have 2 different fire mode. Regular bolter + melta shots. Costs 100 req / 60 power

Bolters
37 damage per hit (normal storm bolters does 75) nearly half damage since it's single linked insted of twin linked.
Range 38 (Same as storm bolters)

So, this bolter mode solves the problem about close range. You don't always have to have the close melta range.

Meltas
70 damage per hit (Techmarine melta does 100)
Range 25 (Tech. Melta has 20)
cooldown 1.2 seconds. Tech melta has 1.5 but 1.2 might be too fast. 1.5 seems legit.

What do you think about it?

[Sturnn]

I really dont like idea of bringing super fucking slow Range Termies to close distance in order to shoot from multimelta's.

[Broodwich]

I really dont like idea of bringing super fucking slow Range Termies to close distance in order to shoot from multimelta's.

This was on my mind. They'd need something else too if this was gonna work

[Torpid]

I really dont like idea of bringing super fucking slow Range Termies to close distance in order to shoot from multimelta's.

This was on my mind. They'd need something else too if this was gonna work

Why? Get a libby in T2 and use them to counter-initiate vs SHI melee squads. That's the whole point. It turns them into a counter-initiation role rather than a stand there and automatically win long firefights role.

[egewithin]

I really dont like idea of bringing super fucking slow Range Termies to close distance in order to shoot from multimelta's.

This was on my mind. They'd need something else too if this was gonna work

Also, if you have a better idea, I would like to hear.

[Broodwich]

Why? Get a libby in T2 and use them to counter-initiate vs SHI melee squads. That's the whole point. It turns them into a counter-initiation role rather than a stand there and automatically win long firefights role.

I'm curious, how would one do this while maintaining cost efficiency? You could get two tanks minus the red cost for a libby + upgrades + terms + upgrade.

Also, if you have a better idea, I would like to hear.

I don't, specifically. The problem is obviously a lack of plasma/power melee damage in SM's army, and its reliance on knockback to control engagements. This was great in retail when nobody else had terminators, but now there's plenty of that to go around. Dreads with melee resist go a long way to closing the gap, but also open themselves to long range, high damage AV fire. A jump squad to tie AV teams up isnt always feasible as its both highly expensive and usually needed to help the dread win engagements.

Really, nobs can be controlled plenty of ways. Its terminators that sm ironically has trouble with. Tanks are pretty much the only option, and endless kiting.

Maybe a shotgun scout t3 upgrade to stun as well? Dunno, just throwing ideas out there

[ol'smithy]

Really, nobs can be controlled plenty of ways. Its terminators that sm ironically has trouble with. Tanks are pretty much the only option, and endless kiting.

Agreed. SM have very little in control abilities when it comes to termies.

[Cheekie Monkie]

Compared to some other races, true enough, but people really shouldn't underestimate the potential of a good force barrier when dealing with termies. It can isolate the rest of the enemy army whist you deal with them, chain kb them whilst your vehicles pummels them unimpeded or covers their retreat, as well as a myriad number of other functions (though I admit that the staff is rather situational compared to both veil and gate)

[Torpid]

I'm curious, how would one do this while maintaining cost efficiency? You could get two tanks minus the red cost for a libby + upgrades + terms + upgrade.

No, I don't suppose you should get a libby then drop melta termies to counter enemy lightning claw terminators as an apo. That would be terribly inefficient. However, the point is that these situations in which you want the melta termies are ones in which you already have a libby from T2.

What races is the libby best vs?

1) Nids. 2) IG 3) GK 4) Chaos 5)SM 6)eldar/orks. In order of best to worst. Which races do you want melta termies vs? Nids, GK, chaos and the FC. Do you see the correlation? Most of the time when you are considering melta termies you will already have a libby anyway due to what he gets you in T2.

This is a vastly different scenario to the one you posit. The libby and his upgrades have no build time - tey are already there, terminators themselves have no build time, sure, their meltas would but they drop down instantly. Compared to two tanks they come out much sooner AND frankly they're going to be much harder to kill than tanks especially vs those races in question (excluding chaos quite normally, but this is why you would only get them vs a chaos player who goes for LC termies or a GUO).

Maybe a shotgun scout t3 upgrade to stun as well? Dunno, just throwing ideas out there

I'm personally not comfortable with making scouts scale EVEN better into T3 than they already do. They're an absolute monstrosity in T1/early T2 as it is for their cost. Such a good unit and knockback does scale itself really well, I just don't think a stun on them is appropriate.