1v1 Maps and the game

[caralimon]

I've been wondering what's the general consensus about the quality of Retail and ELITE added 1v1 maps quality and how they affect the game.

Most of my time with the game has been in Retail so I have little to no experience with the ones added in ELITE, but my personal and humble opinion is that overall 1v1 map quality is abysmal, and i keep facepalming myself at Relic map designers job.

I mean, If it was up to me, I'd only play in CRefinery, Green (Pale) Tooth Gorge and, just for variety's sake, Siwal Frontier. They're big (though Siwal is smaller than it seems, and assymetric), open AND wide enough (unlike, Leviathan Hive for example) to allow for REAL flanks, so that blobbing all your army (minus the odd scouts/tics/etc doing capping duties) isn't the optimal strategy as in pretty much every other map.

Outer Reaches is fine on paper, but the natural Power Nodes are a bit too far/unreachable to the opposing team IMHO due to the odd base positions. Quest's Heresy is big and wide enough, but the weird double walls protecting ¿nothing? just outside the natural power, and the huge open middle section makes it a heavy weapons team spam fest. Green Tooth Jungle Redux should be fine by all means, by I can't come to terms with it for some reason :/

Ashes is... -.- , Ice station -could- be "Ok" with a few changes and without the "get your sunglasses on" WHITE WHITE WHITE snow all over the place, and so on...

So in the end, IMHO, we have Refinery (IMHO the best 1v1 map), Gorge and... Siwal (though blobbing the south half of the map IS a thing here :/ ). What's your opinion on 1v1 maps? What are the actually good additions of ELITE to the 1v1 map pool?

I really think the poor Retail 1v1 map pool is a huge hit to the game 1v1 potential.

[FiSH]

I personally like almost all the maps.
ELITE adds reskins of the maps you seem to like, plus some other interesting ones.
I cannot remember the actual map name, what's the one that's nicknamed Grunk's Gamble? Fedrid Folly? I really like that one because power's on one side and VPs are on the other side, and retreat paths are never an issue on that one.

[Indrid]

Jarilo's Forge is being added to 2.2 which is a great 1v1 I think.

I don't play 1v1, but I am eternally bored that all the 1v1 replays I get are on Calderis or Gorge. Some of the user made 1v1 maps are more than decent IMO but nobody gives them a try it seems. They might not be perfect or tuned over months but it's not like the 1v1ers are playing ranked, so why not give them a whirl? Tallarn Ravine, Plaza Primaris(sp?), Fedrid Folly and others are at the very least playable. Was hoping to see some new maps selected for the 1v1 tournament but alas no.

[Ace of Swords]

-Quest's Heresy
-Siwal Frontier
-Calderis Refinery
-Green tooth George
-Green tooth Jungle Redux
-Leaviathan Hive
-Outher Reaches
-Legis High Stratum (not bad but ASM give you a great advantage there)
-Ashes of typhon (not bad at all, it's just not liked)

These are all good and valid maps, don't even think about touching them im sure they would suffer more damage than good.

Then we have only a few maps that come with the mod and are actually good:

-Fredid folly
-Plaza primarius
-Bay of Grots (bottom is too messed up and top should not have buildings)
-Catachan fortress (not bad, but not liked same as ashes).

The rest are really, really terrible.

[Torpid]

-Quest's Heresy
-Siwal Frontier
-Calderis Refinery
-Green tooth George
-Green tooth Jungle Redux
-Leaviathan Hive
-Outher Reaches
-Legis High Stratum (not bad but ASM give you a great advantage there)
-Ashes of typhon (not bad at all, it's just not liked)

These are all good and valid maps, don't even think about touching them im sure they would suffer more damage than good.

Then we have only a few maps that come with the mod and are actually good:

-Fredid folly
-Plaza primarius
-Bay of Grots (bottom is too messed up and top should not have buildings)
-Catachan fortress (not bad, but not liked same as ashes).

The rest are really, really terrible.

Agreed except I also like sector 95 and I hate Legis. It's a bullshit map. IG are useless. Sentinels are impossible to micro about, jump units give too much of an advantage, it's too small and there is no room to move about.

[Kvek]

Why nobody plays Mirage ?:( A nice map

[caralimon]

My gripes (again, this is all my humble and probably uninformed opinion):

-Leaviathan Hive and Ashes of Typhon share the flaw of being not "Wide" enough for their length, so they're too frontal-combat oriented. On top of it, all the ledges and the obstacles in Levi. Hive make units like Rangers nearly useless, IG in general have a harder time as well, while melee oriented races have it easier.
Ashes "top" lane, where the contested VP is, is a design disaster as well IMHO, lack of jump troops means you have to go alll the way through the "mid lane" almost up to the enemy natural power to flank a blob in the contested VP.

- Outer Reaches. As i said earlier, the natural power nodes (and power farm in most cases) are too out of the way for the enemy team to power harass in most cases. Even worse with the natural VP and Req point, they're just too "natural", too close to the home bases. Still a much nicer map than the "really bad" 1v1 maps.

- Q. Heresy. The double walls between the natural power nodes and the middle section create very awkard situations, and encourage melee camping and indirect fire. A grenade Heretics covered by Havocs wet dream. Simmetry is a positive point, though.

- G. T. Jungle Redux I just can't get used to, dunno why. Have heard complaints of it from others, tho.

- Siwal is just a bit too asymetric to be perfect. IMHO left side has a slight advantage, his natural power is easier to protect and defend, and if he manages to place a HWT in the garrison just outside the right side base, he has free power bash for more than enough time. All in all the map is too south side oriented, natural power are both on the south, control the south half of the map, cover both the south and mid VP and you win. Flanking south half from the northis much harder than it should be, too. Still, the third best 1v1 retail map imho.


Just to be clear, I never asked for touching them in any way, but creating alternatives to them "Pale Tooth Gorge" style might do no harm. I've been thinking about an "alternate take" of Calderis Refinery, just by switching around the Req-Victory Points.

What would you think if the natural VP and Req. Point places were switched? That way, the natural VP wouldn't be as "natural" and easy to defend/retake, and there'd be more possibilities, do I harass his power or go for his VP in the other side?

Anyway, thanks for your feedback so far.

[Ace of Swords]

-Leaviathan Hive and Ashes of Typhon share the flaw of being not "Wide" enough for their length, so they're too frontal-combat oriented. On top of it, all the ledges and the obstacles in Levi. Hive make units like Rangers nearly useless, IG in general have a harder time as well, while melee oriented races have it easier.
Ashes "top" lane, where the contested VP is, is a design disaster as well IMHO, lack of jump troops means you have to go alll the way through the "mid lane" almost up to the enemy natural power to flank a blob in the contested VP.

This is not true, like, at all, leviathan is great for flanks ashes abit less but still doable, and what? your cap unit is going to the top vp as your mainforce pushes the middle vp/enemy power farm or trought the middle power if you need to avoid a turret.

- Outer Reaches. As i said earlier, the natural power nodes (and power farm in most cases) are too out of the way for the enemy team to power harass in most cases. Almost the same case with the natural VP and Req point, they're just too "natural", too close to the home bases. Still a much nicer map than the "really bad" 1v1 maps.

Again, not true at all, in that map bashes can happen easily especially if you position yourself right the natural vp and req is fine, they both create great and long games.
And so it's a good map.

- Q. Heresy. The double walls between the natural power nodes and the middle section create very awkard situations, and encourage melee camping and indirect fire. A grenade Heretics covered by Havocs wet dream. Simmetry is a positive point, though.

How a map full of chokepoints be good for melee camping?
Uou can easily have 1 melee squad going around flanking sure, but you cannot have a melee mainforce.

- Siwal is just a bit too asymetric to be perfect. IMHO left side has a slight advantage, his natural power is easier to protect and defend, and if he manages to place a HWT in the garrison just outside the right side base, he has free power bash for more than enough time. All in all the map is too south side oriented, natural power are both on the south, control the south half of the map, cover both the south and mid VP and you win. Flanking south half from the northis much harder than it should be, too. Still, the third best 1v1 retail map imho.

The building doesn't cover the powerfarm if you attack from bottom simple as that, im pretty sure it doesn't cover too much even when attacking from top.
And that's the point of the map, you have 3 contested VPs you have to choose which part to control, sure the top grants you resources + 2 VPs but leaving the botton undefended opens you up to some really easy genbashes, especially if you went for something static as 1 or 2 devastators.
Overall the map is good.

[caralimon]

Fair enough. I was just asking your opinion/giving my own on retail 1v1 maps, though, not giving a lecture on them "Imperial Inquisitor style", so no need to go "that's not true, at all" on me.

IMHO, the game has some fundamental design issues, and most of the 1v1 maps do nothing but exacerbate them. Siwal, while a good map (much better than most others), does exactly that. It's all about the south half of the map, not only has both natural power nodes, it even has 1 contested Req. point more than the north half.

So it further encourages the "put all your shit here" mentality, which leads to cookie-cutter, static builds, which leads to predictable and ultimately boring gameplay. But that's just my opinion, I can very well be wrong. Maybe in the end it's just not my type of game. Thanks anyway.

[Raffa]

If you think this is the case...

IMHO, the game has some fundamental design issues, and most of the 1v1 maps do nothing but exacerbate them

...then I agree with this assessment:

Maybe in the end it's just not my type of game. Thanks anyway.

[FiSH]

Siwal, while a good map (much better than most others), does exactly that. It's all about the south half of the map

Late game on Siwal will almost always be focused on the top half of the map, actually, because the top 2 VPs are somewhat close together. Honestly, if any map has this kind of problem, it's Bay of Grots, because the VPs and power nodes are all on one half of the map.

If some maps do not satisfy you, please feel free to modify/create them. There are really nice guides and tools on how this can be done. I know that dow2elite.com used to have them, but not sure where they are now.

[caralimon]

Siwal, while a good map (much better than most others), does exactly that. It's all about the south half of the map

Late game on Siwal will almost always be focused on the top half of the map, actually, because the top 2 VPs are somewhat close together. Honestly, if any map has this kind of problem, it's Bay of Grots, because the VPs and power nodes are all on one half of the map.

While I see your point, here's the thing: in DoW2, as in most other RTS's, the player who dominates early-mid game for a long enough time snowballs into late-game -----> wins the game. So, while Siwal north half might be more important in late game, early game control of the south half is game-deciding imho, hence why I say it encourages the "army blobbing" design flaw.

I'd love to be corrected with replays/gamecasts in Siwal that prove me wrong, though.

If some maps do not satisfy you, please feel free to modify/create them. There are really nice guides and tools on how this can be done. I know that dow2elite.com used to have them, but not sure where they are now.

Thanks a lot for encouraging me , I'm already looking into it.


@DJ_Raffa

I'd rather have you contribute to the topic instead of trying to bully me out of the game/forum. Not sure if that's asking too much, though.


My understanding is ELITE mod not only tries to correct the broken mess Retail balance is, but also improve build variety, diversity and lessen the static, cokie-cutter, stale gameplay. My point was, IMHO, most retail 1v1 maps are helding back ELITE from reaching that goal, nothing else.

[Torpid]

@DJ_Raffa
I'd rather have you contribute to the topic instead of trying to bully me out of the game/forum. Not sure if that's asking too much, though.

It's asking way too much tbh, Raffa seems to enjoy running around spewing out obnoxious one liners all over the forum with the only apparent intention being to infuriate people, never actually contributing to any discussion...

[Raffa]

It's asking way too much tbh, Raffa seems to enjoy running around spewing out obnoxious one liners all over the forum with the only apparent intention being to infuriate people, never actually contributing to any discussion...

trolololololol.

Go be happy with your shit player friends then. No time for you fanboys who understand nothing about this game.

The only intelligent peeps who regularly write on these forums are ace dance indrid riku nurland asmon max tomas me and nikhel+kvek+arbitor to an extent. Hate to break it to you but nobody else here has an opinion worth listening to. Apart from lul and cael obviously

Rly cbf dealing with trolls and retards way too often im off here bb

[Indrid]

I'd like to make it clear that DJ Raffa does not represent the stance of the Elite Mod team. Everyone is welcome to post their ideas, feedback and suggestions to this forum, not a "select few" that he has arbitrarily chosen.

DJ Raffa: don't be an asshat. If someone is new to the game and perhaps doesn't grasp certain mechanics then be helpful and explain why perhaps their idea would not work, or do not post in their topics. Don't be belligerent and elitist. We want to attract new players not scare them off.