Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Generic non-balance topics.
nicecupofstfu
Level 0
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue 25 Jun, 2013 11:04 am

Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby nicecupofstfu » Tue 25 Jun, 2013 11:29 am

I've been wondering about why the vindicator hasn't been used in elite yet, with another mod already using it, same applies to the swooping hawks, I imagine the main reason is probably balance issues, or possibly copyright though i cant see that bothering modders? :lol: what's everyone's opinion on having a vindicator in game would be? too OP, too useless? what?
User avatar
Kvek
Level 4
Posts: 792
Joined: Mon 01 Apr, 2013 12:26 pm
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby Kvek » Tue 25 Jun, 2013 12:43 pm

I've played destroyer (most broken mod eva)
And Vindicators there are so fucking OP
and wouldn't fit in Elite

PS: nice name :P
nicecupofstfu
Level 0
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue 25 Jun, 2013 11:04 am

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby nicecupofstfu » Tue 25 Jun, 2013 12:48 pm

I have destroyer myself, and codex edition (swooping hawks), but i think they could work the vidicator into ELITE nicely, since it's really short ranged artillery and it's not as if there's a lot of jump troops :P, I imagine caeltos as being much less biased toward the space marines than the modder for destroyer 40k :P

EDIT: it was supposed to say"it's not as if there's not a lot of jump troops", sarcasm<, also cheers :P
User avatar
Kvek
Level 4
Posts: 792
Joined: Mon 01 Apr, 2013 12:26 pm
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby Kvek » Tue 25 Jun, 2013 1:37 pm

I really don't think it could fit, since for disruption u have the whirlie
and low-range would just make it too easy to take down
User avatar
Raffa
Level 4
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue 30 Jul, 2013 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby Raffa » Tue 25 Jun, 2013 1:47 pm

Neither serve a legitimate balance function. Both would create more problems than they solve. Don't see any need for them (unless you have brand new authentic-looking models/weapons/animations etc on your comp for these units in which case I'm sure Lulgrim would love to work with you)
nicecupofstfu
Level 0
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue 25 Jun, 2013 11:04 am

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby nicecupofstfu » Tue 25 Jun, 2013 1:53 pm

Would require a lot of pretection from other units, ill give you that, but it isn't that the way it's meant to be, even in the lore? On the subject of swooping hawks, it was retarded for me to bring them up, they're preetty much warp spiders with wings haha :P
nicecupofstfu
Level 0
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue 25 Jun, 2013 11:04 am

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby nicecupofstfu » Tue 25 Jun, 2013 2:31 pm

I don't really see why the current version of the vindicator needs any new animations or models, as far as i remember it was pretty much dow2 caliber.
User avatar
MaxPower
Contributor
Posts: 614
Joined: Mon 11 Feb, 2013 10:18 pm
Location: Leipzig

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby MaxPower » Tue 25 Jun, 2013 5:56 pm

nicecupofstfu wrote:I don't really see why the current version of the vindicator needs any new animations or models, as far as i remember it was pretty much dow2 caliber.


Maybe because the model belongs to another mod? And yes, if you wanna create a mod you just don't steal the work from other modders.

Also why would we need a vindicator in the first place, as a long range arty for SM we have the whirlwind for the disruption and we also have the pdev if you want a requisition only artillery unit.

Hence I don't see the point of adding the vindicator.
"A fortress is built with blood and toil. Only by blood and toil may it be taken." Leman Russ
User avatar
Kvek
Level 4
Posts: 792
Joined: Mon 01 Apr, 2013 12:26 pm
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby Kvek » Tue 25 Jun, 2013 6:19 pm

Well for tabletop players there is always a reason :p
User avatar
Ace of Swords
Level 5
Posts: 1493
Joined: Thu 14 Mar, 2013 7:49 am
Location: Terra

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby Ace of Swords » Tue 25 Jun, 2013 6:41 pm

whirlwind


Image

i'd rather see the vindicator tbh, atleast it has 1 CANNON,1 SHOT and that might hit it's target.
Image
nicecupofstfu
Level 0
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue 25 Jun, 2013 11:04 am

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby nicecupofstfu » Tue 25 Jun, 2013 10:27 pm

I like this guy ^, he want's a vindicator to. As far as stealing other modders work goes, werent most of the units and retextures made with no specific mod in mind, for instance the LotD pack that's coming into elite next patch, which I assume is an updated version of hadrun's or maybe the same pack, though hadrun worked on elite anyway didn't he? I assumed the vindicator was made along the same lines, although i have not looked into it. Lot's of assumptions ^, still on the subject of artillery, the whirlwind is more like the manticore, it's not exactly a vindicator, their ranges are entirely different.
User avatar
Nuclear Arbitor
Level 5
Posts: 1106
Joined: Tue 12 Feb, 2013 2:56 am

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 3:35 am

having multiple units that fulfill the same role isn't an issue, especially when there are differences that make them better than each other in different circumstances. i would personally love to have swooping hawks but i'm not sure there is room for them.
User avatar
Kvek
Level 4
Posts: 792
Joined: Mon 01 Apr, 2013 12:26 pm
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby Kvek » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 5:33 am

I'm not that big of a tabletop/lore guy but swooping hawks are flying elderp unit ?
fok12
Level 2
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue 21 May, 2013 1:01 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby fok12 » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 9:30 am

Yeah, Swooping Hawks are basically Avengers on wings. Maybe they could be like Tier 1 jump units that in T2 they could upgrade to Skyleap, like the Autarch, and then be called down with a single entry grenade or something for some req/red? Also, for the Vindicator, do you think it could be added as a T2/T3 short-ranged artillery for Chaos, since they lack that?
User avatar
Indrid
Moderator
Posts: 898
Joined: Mon 04 Feb, 2013 5:06 pm
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby Indrid » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 9:42 am

Yes, I assume those that want them in want them in as a jump unit. In the lore they have lighter armour than other Eldar infantry which could help balance them and keep them fluffy.
User avatar
Commissar Yarrick
Level 3
Posts: 235
Joined: Sat 16 Feb, 2013 9:49 pm

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby Commissar Yarrick » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 11:08 am

Swooping hawks Wargear:

The ritual weapons of the Swooping Hawks are the Lasblaster and Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack, two weapons especially suited to their role as harassers operating ahead of the main Eldar host. The grenade pack in particular can carry a wide variety of grenades, from Krak and Frag to Plasma and Haywire Grenades. Flying over their enemies' heads, the Swooping Hawks rain down explosive death before closing in to press the assault or falling back to cover to use their Lasblasters

Soruce: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Swooping_Hawk#Wargear
Image
nicecupofstfu
Level 0
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue 25 Jun, 2013 11:04 am

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby nicecupofstfu » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 11:17 am

The upgrade for swooping hawks would be another exarch, doing slightly higher damage than the average swooping hawk and allowing access to the haywire grenades/skyleap, then you could probably have a sunrifle or power weapon upgrade, this is just going on information from the wiki.
User avatar
Torpid
Moderator
Posts: 3536
Joined: Sat 01 Jun, 2013 12:09 pm
Location: England, Leeds

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby Torpid » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 3:07 pm

Why do eldar need them? There is no point adding random units for no reason, it just upsets balance. Eldar don't need a jump unit in t1 otherwise how do you counter hawks+rangers+shees, melee spam?
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
User avatar
Nurland
Moderator
Posts: 1343
Joined: Mon 04 Feb, 2013 5:25 pm
Location: Eye of Error
Contact:

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby Nurland » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 8:08 pm

Well since mobility is already a problem against eldar in 1v1 I personally dislike the idea of them having one more highly mobile unit that excels in harassment.
#noobcodex
User avatar
Nuclear Arbitor
Level 5
Posts: 1106
Joined: Tue 12 Feb, 2013 2:56 am

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Thu 27 Jun, 2013 4:39 am

swooping hawks would need to be t3; scorpions should be t1.
dance commander
Level 2
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri 22 Feb, 2013 12:10 pm

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby dance commander » Thu 27 Jun, 2013 8:14 am

Swooping hawks are unecessary, scorpions on the other hand are a nice idea, a melee unit that doesn't do power melee (with the exarch having the scorpion power fist, don't remember its name) being heavier than other eldar units, specialized on hunting high model enemy infantry would fit a role that is missing among the eldar ranks.
In my head it would be like this: heavy melee(in terms of protection) unit that does standard melee damage and a dot (the exarch alone) with a short melee charge compared to other melee units, invisible while not moving, the aspect would add splash damage, this would be offset by the fact that they deal little direct damage, making them more useful against high model units.
The role they would fill? Primarily a melee unit useful against opponents that make little use of heavy infantry, don't you think it's pretty lame that every eldar goes 2x or 3x GUs against IG for example?

Still, I don't think there are any models avaiable so...yeah.
User avatar
Nuclear Arbitor
Level 5
Posts: 1106
Joined: Tue 12 Feb, 2013 2:56 am

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Thu 27 Jun, 2013 9:08 am

this is what i came up with. t1 callin in the last unused eldar slot, hence the red.

Code: Select all

5 Striking Scorpions (400/40/50)
160hp per model
chainsword (20dps melee_pvp) & shuriken pistol/mandiblasters (5dps piercing_pvp, 100% fotm)
heavy_infantry
no speicals
70 melee skill
no melee charge
infiltrate
xp 100
red 8
speed 5.5
courage 100
sight 40
size small

Exarch (85/20/0)
200hp
two chainswords (40dps melee_pvp) mandiblasters (3dps Piercing_pvp, 100% fotm)
heavy_infantry
no specials
70 melee skill

Aspect of the Scorpion (100/20/0 T2)
move through cover
scorpion's claw (35dps heavy_melee_pvp, 7dps piercing_pvp, 100% fotm)

Executioner (75/10/0 T2)
executioner (43dps heavy_melee_pvp, 35% 180 degree knockback)


ties up ranged units, counters setup teams when there isn't detectors around, no melee charge but counters kiting by having unusually high, accurate fotm.

mostly just food for thought.
User avatar
Commissar Yarrick
Level 3
Posts: 235
Joined: Sat 16 Feb, 2013 9:49 pm

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby Commissar Yarrick » Thu 27 Jun, 2013 10:29 am

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:swooping hawks would need to be t3; scorpions should be t1.


I like the idea.
Image
User avatar
Torpid
Moderator
Posts: 3536
Joined: Sat 01 Jun, 2013 12:09 pm
Location: England, Leeds

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby Torpid » Thu 27 Jun, 2013 1:50 pm

dance commander wrote:Swooping hawks are unecessary, scorpions on the other hand are a nice idea, a melee unit that doesn't do power melee (with the exarch having the scorpion power fist, don't remember its name) being heavier than other eldar units, specialized on hunting high model enemy infantry would fit a role that is missing among the eldar ranks.
In my head it would be like this: heavy melee(in terms of protection) unit that does standard melee damage and a dot (the exarch alone) with a short melee charge compared to other melee units, invisible while not moving, the aspect would add splash damage, this would be offset by the fact that they deal little direct damage, making them more useful against high model units.
The role they would fill? Primarily a melee unit useful against opponents that make little use of heavy infantry, don't you think it's pretty lame that every eldar goes 2x or 3x GUs against IG for example?

Still, I don't think there are any models available so...yeah.


And under the same logic chaos need daemonettes for t1 power melee, marines need power sword melee tacs in t1, ya know because devastators aren't purchased in every MU, gotta make every build viable eh? You're free to get banshees if you want vs IG, just like you're free to go triple sluggas against tyranids... It's a strategy game, people use the optimal builds. The lack of versatility is just a fundamental flaw of the game and the way its economy works.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
User avatar
Raffa
Level 4
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue 30 Jul, 2013 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby Raffa » Thu 27 Jun, 2013 1:54 pm

Nothing on this thread is any more than a fanboy wish.

I categorically disagree with everything here.
dance commander
Level 2
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri 22 Feb, 2013 12:10 pm

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby dance commander » Thu 27 Jun, 2013 1:58 pm

That Torpid Gamer wrote:
And under the same logic chaos need daemonettes for t1 power melee, marines need power sword melee tacs in t1, ya know because devastators aren't purchased in every MU, gotta make every build viable eh? You're free to get banshees if you want vs IG, just like you're free to go triple sluggas against tyranids... It's a strategy game, people use the optimal builds. The lack of versatility is just a fundamental flaw of the game and the way its economy works.


I never said eldar "need" scorpions, I said it would be a nice idea, it's not a priority I only explained how I would do the whole thing.
Also what does that whole daemonettes and marines with power sword thing have to do with anything? What I'm "free" to do does not have anything to do with what would fit the current roster of an army.

DJ Raffa wrote:Nothing on this thread is any more than a fanboy wish.

I categorically disagree with everything here.


That's nice.
User avatar
Torpid
Moderator
Posts: 3536
Joined: Sat 01 Jun, 2013 12:09 pm
Location: England, Leeds

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby Torpid » Thu 27 Jun, 2013 2:03 pm

dance commander wrote:
I never said eldar "need" scorpions, I said it would be a nice idea, it's not a priority I only explained how I would do the whole thing.
Also what does that whole daemonettes and marines with power sword thing have to do with anything? What I'm "free" to do does not have anything to do with what would fit the current roster of an army.


So why do it then when it will only hinder the balance of the game???

We cannot just add random fluffy units into the game unless there is a proper sound and well evidenced argument to say we should. If it was never your intention to implement such units into the game then I would prefer it if people didn't discuss it. When people see us discussing why implementing fluffy things into the game could work they get all excited and then start trolling the forums with the most ridiculous ideas. It's just very frustrating.

uhhh, can IG get a titan in t3, they need a walker.... <3
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
User avatar
Lost Son of Nikhel
Contributor
Posts: 636
Joined: Wed 13 Feb, 2013 4:26 pm
Location: The Warp

Re: Vindicator, swooping hawks.

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Fri 28 Jun, 2013 8:38 am

DJ Raffa wrote:Nothing on this thread is any more than a fanboy wish.

I categorically disagree with everything here.

Even with Daemonnettes? Will you disagree to control beautiful and sensual Daemonettes, what realize all your perverse desires and will eviscerate all your enemies?

And you are a Chaos player? :lol:
"Pater, peccavi in caelum et coram te; iam non sum dignus vocari filius tuus". Dixit autem pater: "manducemus et epulemur, quia hic filius meus mortuus erat et revixit, perierat et inventus est"

There will be no forgiveness for us.

Return to “Community General Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests